Have you ever "evolved" a character?

90 Dwarf Mage
12450
Source for it from wowpedia, though?
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72 Blood Elf Mage
12285
i used my own argument with his quote

i have no idea what you are trying to say


Posted by Maoseitun
If you can't comprehend this then you need to take a step back and think before posting.

i can do it too


Just this.

Not trying to derail a derail. Though at this point I don't think it matters, the OP has gotten several direct answers before this entire kerfluffle erupted.

As I said before I don't care who wins this e-argument. I just don't like the immediate stamping down on any idea ever that doesn't specifically exist in lore. And more than that I don't like the "HAL SAID IT IT MUST BE TRUE" attitude that most people on this forum posses.

Whether or not I agree with Silver or Hal or whoever is irrelevant, though I applaud Silver for standing up against a the hive-mind mentality of this place. Which is why I took a poke at your little quote fest. :3
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
the wanderers are very rare

of those you mentioned above

3 out of how many living on the isle?

YOU CAN ONLY NAME 3

all of them were monks

you cannot show me in any canonical lore that pandaren in any way can be paladins

it is a a one in a million freaking shot and you refuse to accept that

no matter how many times we say it

and that is REALLY REALLY frustrating

a one in a million shot would deserve some kind of lore shout-out WHICH THERE ARE NONE

rarity does not negate possibility

rarity does negate the probability that your very own character can be a pandraen paladin taught by the alliance

IT IS POSSIBLE

NOT PROBABLE

11/19/2012 09:59 PMPosted by Maoseitun
there has been at least one to encounter the Scarlet Crusade


and this argument does not help your point in any way shape or form

ONE pandaren found the scarlet crusade

he taught them martial arts

the same with the dranei

he taught them martial arts, they didn't become paladins, there was nobody known with them, unless blizzard says specifically something like that happened, THEN IT DID NOT HAPPEN

it could have, but we don't know, and even if it did, it would be a one in a million shot
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
Source for it from wowpedia, though?


http://www.wowpedia.org/Pandaren

read through it if you don't believe me

i completely ignored the rpg section
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450


though I applaud Silver for standing up against a the hive-mind mentality of this place.


It's what I do, been away from this place for too long.

No source from them being rare. If it comes from WC3 - then it's outdated information that has been supplanted by newer information.
Edited by Maoseitun on 11/19/2012 10:25 PM PST
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
anyway i'm going to bed because i need to wake up in the morning

{◕ ◡ ◕}

may the sha of happiness consume you
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22 Undead Warlock
0
H...hive-mind mentality? i think that's a bit harsh.
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
11/19/2012 10:24 PMPosted by Maoseitun
No source from them being rare. If it comes from WC3 - then it's outdated information that has been supplanted by newer information.


the actually updated the wiki page for pandaren with the release of mop

it used to be mostly rpg and the sections weren't labeled before

wowpedia updates with every new lore that is released

they were down for weeks after ask cdev #2 because rpgs were deemed non-canon

it is the most trusted wow lore source for that reason
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
11/20/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Srdotsalot
H...hive-mind mentality? i think that's a bit harsh.


Harsh but accurate, sadly enough.

the actually updated the wiki page for pandaren with the release of mop

it used to be mostly rpg and the sections weren't labeled before

wowpedia updates with every new lore that is released

they were down for weeks after ask cdev #2 because rpgs were deemed non-canon

it is the most trusted wow lore source for that reason


You misunderstand.

The information is outdated and supplanted by newer information. If you glimpse the heading for the bit where they are claimed to be a rarity, you'll see it's from Warcraft 3 - I assume the game manual at that. The information is still pertinent, but it was also written at a time before the Wandering Isle became realized - as it was specifically created for MoP.

Which makes the idea of pandaren wanderers being rare... well, laughable, given the fact there is an entire turtle-island of pandaren explorers and wanderers.
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
Which makes the idea of pandaren wanderers being rare... well, laughable, given the fact there is an entire turtle-island of pandaren explorers and wanderers.


the whole turtle-island thing i believe was more of an explanation for the wanderers

of those on the island we still ONLY KNOW OF 3 THAT LEFT THE ISLAND BEFORE MOP
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
the whole turtle-island thing i believe was more of an explanation for the wanderers

of those on the island we still ONLY KNOW OF 3 THAT LEFT THE ISLAND BEFORE MOP


Knowing of =/= the only ones.

To elaborate.

Most Americans only know of a few Founding Fathers, generally the big three-four: Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin.

Even then, quite a few Americans skip Adams.

There were far more than just four Founding Fathers - yet they are some of the most famous and are the ones the spotlight is cast upon.

Those three that left before MoP are known - but being known doesn't necessarily equate to them being the only ones. Once again I curse Blizzard and their decanonizing of so much lore because of a very, very small number of things they disliked, but anyways - pandaren were supposed to be - while a rarity - still a known race and... common, enough to be seen in Alliance lands prior to the decanonization.

I'm sure there are a few RPers who RP this out - and it is not wrong to do so.

And before you bring up 'WELL LORE ONLY SAYS THERE'S THREE!'

Lore says, quite honestly, none of our organizations or characters exist. I have never read wowpedia and found an article on Queen Madelynne Albrecht I who has made claim to the vacant throne of Lordaeron and seeks to regain it for the Alliance and strip it from the rotting hands of the Forsaken.

Yet I would still RP with such a character, and have, as long as I find it meshing.

For a glimpse of my own characters -

There is no Blackgate Keep which is home to Duke Darranon Dawnstar, the bastard son of the late Duke Mallarion Danwstar and a maid of his staff. There is no penal dukedom where quarried stone is shipped across the Alliance in return for more prisoners to work the vast granite quarries.

There is no Howling Hills which is home to the Wolfthane Clan of dwarves who rode into battle on the back of fierce wolves. There is no Thane Bleiddud Wolfthane - a hoary and fierce dwarven Mountain King who has fought the Horde every step of the way throughout his recent life and sought to restore honor to Clan Wolfthane for their own association with the massive worgs commanded by orcs.

There is no Decimus Arinbor, hero of the Alliance and a legend to all - a figure to be looked upon in glory who is in actuality a coward of the highest degree. Whose pillar of fame is built upon lies and the corpses of heroic men and women who died under his cowardly service as he ascended to higher and higher ranks of notoriety and fame - all the while waking up at night with the horrors he has had to face with only luck to see him through, and to know that each day may be his last in more ways than one should his secret ever slip.

I can go on with this - but the short and sweet of it is, lore gives us a functioning set of lines to work within. We have to color within the lines, but we're given freedom of creativity to choose our own colors. There is nothing wrong coloring the sky blue, the grass green and the horses brown. But, just as there are those content to keep to the same old ways, those who choose to go a little different should not be slapped on the wrist and told 'no' by those who stick to their own colors.

Mutual respect is owed, just as a radical should not scorn the puritan for the choice of realistic and conservative colors, the puritan should have the same tolerance for the radical to allow them to color the sky red, the grass violet and the horses a hideous shade of vomit yellow.
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
Lore says, quite honestly, none of our organizations or characters exist. I have never read wowpedia and found an article on Queen Madelynne Albrecht I who has made claim to the vacant throne of Lordaeron and seeks to regain it for the Alliance and strip it from the rotting hands of the Forsaken.

Yet I would still RP with such a character, and have, as long as I find it meshing.

For a glimpse of my own characters -

There is no Blackgate Keep which is home to Duke Darranon Dawnstar, the bastard son of the late Duke Mallarion Danwstar and a maid of his staff. There is no penal dukedom where quarried stone is shipped across the Alliance in return for more prisoners to work the vast granite quarries.

There is no Howling Hills which is home to the Wolfthane Clan of dwarves who rode into battle on the back of fierce wolves. There is no Thane Bleiddud Wolfthane - a hoary and fierce dwarven Mountain King who has fought the Horde every step of the way throughout his recent life and sought to restore honor to Clan Wolfthane for their own association with the massive worgs commanded by orcs.

There is no Decimus Arinbor, hero of the Alliance and a legend to all - a figure to be looked upon in glory who is in actuality a coward of the highest degree. Whose pillar of fame is built upon lies and the corpses of heroic men and women who died under his cowardly service as he ascended to higher and higher ranks of notoriety and fame - all the while waking up at night with the horrors he has had to face with only luck to see him through, and to know that each day may be his last in more ways than one should his secret ever slip.

I can go on with this - but the short and sweet of it is, lore gives us a functioning set of lines to work within. We have to color within the lines, but we're given freedom of creativity to choose our own colors. There is nothing wrong coloring the sky blue, the grass green and the horses brown. But, just as there are those content to keep to the same old ways, those who choose to go a little different should not be slapped on the wrist and told 'no' by those who stick to their own colors.

Mutual respect is owed, just as a radical should not scorn the puritan for the choice of realistic and conservative colors, the puritan should have the same tolerance for the radical to allow them to color the sky red, the grass violet and the horses a hideous shade of vomit yellow


yup

i think i'm done arguing with you >.>

but before i'm done >.>

11/20/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Most Americans only know of a few Founding Fathers, generally the big three-four: Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin.


but we know who all teh founding fathers are

they are in history

we don't know of anybody besides these 3 in lore

none, nadda, zip, zilcho

edit:premature submit.... /fail
Edited by Dragonson on 11/20/2012 7:48 PM PST
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91 Troll Shaman
9155
aaaand

since i'm done arguing

{◕ ◡ ◕}

may the sha of happiness consume you
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60 Gnome Death Knight
1650
The closest thing for me would be when I deleted a Warrior Human and restarted him in as a Warlock with the same name and the same "looks". His back story was that he was affected by one of the time changes in the Caverns of Time and has no recollection of his alternate life.

Maybe he could have dreams about people he never met or things he never did.
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100 Human Mage
20670
I do hate to stir up this derail even more, but... Well, something nagged at me.

In regards to the Wandering Isle... According to Li Li's Travel Journal and Quest for Pandaria, the pandaren of the Wandering Isle had been complacent with staying on the Wandering Isle up until the timeframe of Mists.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9275
*Walks into thread*

Special ruby touches Reyara.

*Whats this? Reyara is evolving!*

Reyara has evolved into Ceyara*

Sorry couldn't resist
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
8840
This "argument" is ridiculous. Evolving a warrior of priest into a paladin works fine for a human, dwarf, draenei, blood elf, or tauren.

It doesn't work with a pandaren. Why? For the same reason gnomes and goblins can be priests but not paladins. The first paladins on Azeroth were the Order of the Silver Hand, which was founded roughly 20 years ago.

It took humans, the race closest to the Light and founders of the philosophy of the Holy Light thousands of years before some among them could achieve the kind of power and conviction to wield Light as weapon rather than healing force. Dwarves also came with these teachings, as did high elves.

Draenei Vindicators and Exarchs had a period of 25,000 years of contact with beings of pure Light. They are the race closest to the Light and only arrived on Azeroth about 3 years ago. Logically, they should be capable of wielding the Light as a weapon of righteous fury.

High elf paladins happened but were extremely rare and stemmed from the Silver Hand. Blood elves gained their paladins through the sapping of a Naaru and, later, the Sunwell spiked with the Light of a Naaru. They never had a problem with becoming priests before the Scourge because it's "easier" to use the Light to heal than to wield it as a weapon - and healing is what it was used for before the Second War.

Tauren Sunwalkers draw their power from An'she, the sun, in the same way night elf priests and all druids draw power from the moon. In a technical sense, they are not truly "paladins" but wield Light in a similar manner. They're more like night elf priestesses (WCIII Tyrande, not in-game priestesses) who use the sun instead of the moon.

For a pandaren paladin to exist, he or she would need to either learn in the manner of the Silver Hand or the draenei Exarchs and Vindicators, which would require a long period of training and complete faith in the Light, or the Sunwalkers, which would necessitate knowledge of druidism and there are no pandaren druids.

They can't do it the blood elf way because blood elves and what few high elves remain are the only races connected to the Sunwell in that manner. They can't drain its power, there's no way they'd allow them close to it.

I can go on with this - but the short and sweet of it is, lore gives us a functioning set of lines to work within. We have to color within the lines, but we're given freedom of creativity to choose our own colors. There is nothing wrong coloring the sky blue, the grass green and the horses brown. But, just as there are those content to keep to the same old ways, those who choose to go a little different should not be slapped on the wrist and told 'no' by those who stick to their own colors.

Mutual respect is owed, just as a radical should not scorn the puritan for the choice of realistic and conservative colors, the puritan should have the same tolerance for the radical to allow them to color the sky red, the grass violet and the horses a hideous shade of vomit yellow.


The only reason we're arguing against a pandaren paladin is because it does not go "between the lines". It blatantly goes outside the lines.

And something I want to express here: having a unique character does not equal having an interesting character. Having unique powers, an extremely unique backstory, or a unique class compared to others of your race does not make your character special. Colouring the sea brown, the grass red, and the sky yellow when given guidelines that specifically state to colour them blue and green doesn't make you appear better than anyone who followed those guidelines.

I'm really not getting this attitude of "people who argue for lore are ruining our creativity". It just says that you're not really creative enough to draw uniqueness from who the character is, not what the character is.
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1 Human Rogue
0
11/20/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Knowing of =/= the only ones.


I lied, I'm back for a few minutes.

Anyway, this is the main problem right here: This is why every character you make, and every outlandish idea you support is innately a special snowflake and (usually) a sue.

Most people RP things which we know there are multiples of. Warlocks, warriors, rogues, paladins.

More specifically priests of the church, shaman of the earthen ring, druids of the cenarion circle, agents for SI:7, generic army corporals / other (not extremely high) ranks. These are all things which we not only know exist, but that there are plenty more of whom we don't know of directly. So there's plenty of wriggle room to fit in.

Your ideas? This idea? No, there isn't and there aren't.

It's possible that other Pandaren left the Wandering Isle and ventured off into the world. It's also possible that they joined / hung out around the Alliance. It's even vaguely possible that one of them was a priest and eventually became a paladin; though anything like this would be a retcon.

The problem is that it's not probable.

It's possible, but we have some fairly strong indications and implications that the people on the Wandering Isle haven't been doing a whole ton of wandering outside of the ones we know about. It's possible that a random Pandaren who did that joined the Alliance in an official capacity, but given that the Wandering Isles resident (even those who have left) haven't had a whole lot of interest in actual politics (save Chen's one showing; though that was more 'these people live in huts, are minding their own buisness, and have an a well armed and well equipped enemy trying to butcher them' than 'I want to join the Horde because they're great people'). It's possible that this Pandaren was a priest and somehow got themselves trained as a paladin, but we've been told that the current paladins who are part of the Church are only allowed to be humans or dwarves.

All of these things are very abstractly possible, but they're the sort of thing which would make a lore character. A collection of 1% and "special snowflake" scenarios which, all in all, would make your character a very important part of racial relations and someone who, whilst perhaps not being Varian Wrynn with regards to story importance, would most definitely have a say in things and be an important player in faction events.

That's the sort of importance and power which we cannot have, but that is what this character (and indeed, nearly every single one you make) would have.

Honestly, you're just like that guy who made a threat about vampires and complained when people shot it down: The only difference is that you've been here longer. You've got a strong enough grasp of the lore to understand that as long as you don't directly break it, you can go around and make characters which are equivilent to God as long as they exist exclusively in the grey space of "It's possible".

But I've got a news flash for you, something which you really need to wrap your head around. Responsible RPers do not RP such things. You're negligent, greedy, self centered, and juvenile; you RP these terrible concepts and you carefully craft them so that anyone who tries to -really- blow them out of the water can be characterized as unduely oppressive, whilst everyone else can just be baffled by the fact that you know the lore well enough to lead them on a merry chase, poke holes in their own points, and confuse them enough that they give.

And don't you dare bring up anything like "I RP so I can throw fireballs" an effort to rebutle me. You and I both know there's a massive difference between RPing so you can do things you wouldn't be able to irl (throw fire, kill demons, be a badass) that are sqaurely within the cannon, and then simply making up major lore characters of your own in the lore's many grey areas.

In closing:

11/21/2012 12:09 AMPosted by Mebahiah
The only reason we're arguing against a pandaren paladin is because it does not go "between the lines". It blatantly goes outside the lines.


Your idea of coloring within the lines is taking a wild idea and running it entirely within the grey areas of the lore. Making it so that everyone has to yield that it's vaguely possible, but disregarding respect for immersion, limiting character power, and most of all creating believable characters. You're not owed any respect because you give none, you just abuse your power to follow the letter of the lore law but burn the spirit alive.
Edited by Hallinton on 11/21/2012 12:17 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7285
I thought that B elf paldins STOLE "the light" from the naaru
11/18/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Styvan
Aka, Blood Elf, Draenei, Human, Tauren, and Dwarf. In this guys backstory, he was originally a priest back before the Second War, longing to do something more with his knack of the Holy Light. And when the call for paladins came out, he became one.
Edited by Sanarak on 11/21/2012 12:20 AM PST
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36 Human Monk
7505


No. No. NO. Lore wise, Pandarens can't be paladins for the simple fact that when the Order of the Silver Hand was formed, Pandaria was still shrouded in mist. Pandaria has been isolated from the rest of Azeroth since The Sundering, 10 000 years ago and has only recently rejoined the rest of Azeroth. There is no possible way a Pandaren could have learned the ways of a paladin.


You know, unless a Paladin took them under their wing to teach them. Of course they wouldn't be masters immediately, but really. It's logical to think about it in that sense. A Pandaren took more to what the Light is than his own people's religion/beliefs. There's always someone like that in the family. They take to another path than everyone else.

"IT'S NOT IN LORE!!" Is something someone afraid of trying something different would say, imo. This really isn't that outlandish. I've seen far crazier sh*t commence.

edit: It would take time, of course, but that really doesn't mean it's so impossible. As you all have said, the way of the Paladin -has- been found. It is not as though the Pandaren's are learning this completely on their own. They'd probably need a Dreanei teacher due to the supposed long life spans of a Pandaren, but there you have it. They can follow the teachings, the way of the light, and learn what being a Paladin actually is.

This would be an entirely different story if the Pandaren had to figure out completely on their own.
Edited by Taegenn on 11/21/2012 3:00 AM PST
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