Have you ever "evolved" a character?

90 Undead Death Knight
15070
12/01/2012 09:21 PMPosted by Dragonson
Paladins, not only in Fantasy, but in RL, have and always be a western concept. The first being Charlemagne's 12 peers, being a symbol of Christianity against the Sarcen (or muslim) hordes. Then, where the name Paladin comes from, is the Judices Palatini, which were high ranking judges in the papal court. In eastern history, there is nothing like the Paladin. By default, Paladins aren't fit to go to a eastern based race like the Pandaren.


this isn't real life


But thing is, it's where the Paladins get their concepts. It's where the name comes from to begin with. In Real life, though there isn't a DnD style paladin, the very word comes from another word that pretty much translate to 'holy judges'.

If you bring in the DnD concept of the Paladin, paladins, through each iteration of the books, always had a theme of 'warrior devoted to the cause of one deity, and is thus, blessed with powers'.

In WoW? In the Paladins talent trees and ability's all have names relating to judgements, and a divine power that comes from a single cause. Blood Knight, Vindicators, Human and dwarf paladins, even the tauren sunwalkers have a theme in common. They fight for the justice of their sole cause. Sunwalkers are all for the balance of nature, Blood Knights are all for the Sunwell, and the Draenei, Human, and Dwarf paladins all have something in common when it comes to the Church of the Holy Light. They're pretty much religious Zealots devoted to protecting and upholding the right to their Religious beliefs.

Kinda like the Twelve peers from Charlemagnes's courts. Info taken from Wikipedia
The paladins, sometimes known as the Twelve Peers, were the foremost warriors of Charlemagne's court, according to the literary cycle known as the Matter of France.[1] They first appear in the early chansons de geste such as The Song of Roland, where they represent Christian martial valor against the Saracen hordes. The paladins and their associated exploits are largely later fictional inventions, with some basis on historical Frankish retainers of the 8th century and events such as the Battle of Roncevaux Pass and the confrontation of the Frankish Empire with Umayyad Al-Andalus in the Marca Hispanica.


The word paladin comes from Judices palatini. High ranking judges in the Christian courts.

For the eastern inspired Pandaren, who worshiped 4 different causes in the form of the Celestials for such a long amount of time, and having history that is based around being calm and keeping your emotions in check, having something like a Paladin is almost unthinkable, since it'd require to split yourself off to devote to one singular cause, and because of the split, likely cause some zealotry and bitter feeling towards each other, which in Pandaria is a terrible thing to have happen, (because Sha).

Even with the Wandering isle, that history of needing to be mellow, and having separate ways to follow, has leaned Pandaren to Monks, rather than Paladins.
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1 Human Rogue
0
12/01/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Then why ever bother bringing up my past characters, of which I'm proud and have been exclusive to the forums, in an attempt to try and shatter my credibility?


You don't attack someone's credibility in order to make them agree with you. Hurr. Your mage has also been far from "exclusive" to the forums. I bloody well wish my characters could level the entire Horde in an afternoon if they were in a bad enough mood with no real consequences.

Any person on Azeroth will be able to know and tell you the dangers of the world, they might not know how to deal with them - or they may have never seen them, but they understand them.Now you take a random person from our world. They have never dealt with any of these things. They know nothing when it comes to interaction between the races.


This is dead wrong.

Why?

Because everyone knows about Fantasy. They may not be familiar with Warcraft in particular, but they'd doubtlessly recognize common things like Undead, Dragons, Magic, Orcs, Dwarves, ect ect.

It is, ironicly, substantially easier to create a character who's from Azeroth that knows less about the fantasy universe than it is who's from our world. A human who grew up on a farm in Elwynn, has only left it a couple of times for supply runs down to Goldshire, and has only heard a few tales about dragon / undead / fireballs is actually surprisingly plausible. Then having this character run away to seek their fortune or join up with the army creates great potential for them to explore a world which is almost entirely unknown to them. They may never have met a dwarf or a gnome before, spoken with an elf, seen a mage cast a fireball, or seen a priest heal.

On the flip side, our world. Unless you want to play a member of a primitive african / island tribe who was somehow sucked into Warcraft (hint: you won't. I'd bet the bank on you or anyone else who wanted to do this would not only be playing an American or possibly a european, but also a white person) you're going to recognize far more than that naive child who just got off the farm. You'll have read and played games about orcs, dragons, dwarves, midgets, magic, undead, zombies, ect ect ect. You may not be familiar with the cannon of Warcraft itself, but you'd recognize a lot of the very common fantasy tropes.

12/01/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Maoseitun
they've never seen a person conjure fire, they've never watched a pile of goo suddenly form into a voracious predator


.. The hell farm did your Elwynn born human grow up on?

Anyway, quite honestly, I'm done with this. I made my analogy to arguing with you being the equivilent of playing chess with a pigeon and I stick by it. I have, quite handily, beaten you. Beyond your first post or so in this (and another thread) all you've consistant willfully misread what myself and others have said only to fire back with "Nuh uh!" and then try to glue in some point which wasn't even related.

You've shaken your fist and gone on about how we're saying no when we're not. You've attempted to make lore arguments only to have us smack you around with much stronger counter points.

And, finally, you've decided that you're apparently wise enough to flat up disqualify perfectly good lore which has no counter so far as your argument goes merely on the grounds that it's "old".. Despite the fact that it's not old.

Yet, despite having more holes put into your argument than whichever unfortunate prostitutes visited the street corner near Jack the Ripper's home back in old London, you're still going at it because you simply refuse to ever give on any point. Even when we catch you in blatant lies / refusal to understand us, you just quickly redirect the subject away from the failure on your part and towards something which is either only tangently or entirely unrelated.

You've even got people who I've never heard of who don't subscribe to "Hallintonism" that are here pointing out all the glaring flaws and bad logic you're mustering up simply to try and fight The Man. Lord, I absolutely loathe Dragonson and we've disagreed on a ton of thigns in the past, but he / she is here arguing against you because it's really not hard to see how far out in left field you are.

If you're really serious on fighting the metaphoric power and trying to provide a viable voice for extreme lore breaking, you're really going to have to clean up your act. Because right now your arguments are convoluted and exceedingly weak. The only thing which even remotely keeps them together is your self-righteous inability to ever accept defeat or that you might actually be incorrect, misinformed, in the wrong corner, or what have you.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/01/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
You don't attack someone's credibility in order to make them agree with you. Hurr. Your mage has also been far from "exclusive" to the forums. I bloody well wish my characters could level the entire Horde in an afternoon if they were in a bad enough mood with no real consequences.


... wat...

My lich, you mean? Who has been exclusive to the forums?

Cause my mage, in game, has never been able to unleash that kind of magic.

12/01/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
This is dead wrong.


Yes, and the trolls from WoW look like the trolls from other fantasy and act just like them. Tauren are exactly like minotaurs as well. And these orcs are all too similar to the orcs from - OH WAIT A MINUTE NOPE.

Yes, they might be familiar with it. But here's the kicker - I can read a Warhammer fantasy book, and the orcs in that have no similarity to the orcs in WoW aside from the fact both are green and both have tusks. WoW doesn't have typical fantasy races - even the undead are a unique case.

12/01/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
It is, ironicly, substantially easier to create a character who's from Azeroth that knows less about the fantasy universe than it is who's from our world. A human who grew up on a farm in Elwynn, has only left it a couple of times for supply runs down to Goldshire, and has only heard a few tales about dragon / undead / fireballs is actually surprisingly plausible. Then having this character run away to seek their fortune or join up with the army creates great potential for them to explore a world which is almost entirely unknown to them. They may never have met a dwarf or a gnome before, spoken with an elf, seen a mage cast a fireball, or seen a priest heal.


I never said it wasn't easier. I said that a person on Azeroth would have a better grasp of knowledge than one from our world.

12/01/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
On the flip side, our world. Unless you want to play a member of a primitive african / island tribe who was somehow sucked into Warcraft (hint: you won't. I'd bet the bank on you or anyone else who wanted to do this would not only be playing an American or possibly a european, but also a white person) you're going to recognize far more than that naive child who just got off the farm. You'll have read and played games about orcs, dragons, dwarves, midgets, magic, undead, zombies, ect ect ect. You may not be familiar with the cannon of Warcraft itself, but you'd recognize a lot of the very common fantasy tropes.


As far as general appearance of races go? Almost.

Draenei and Night Elves would throw most people for a loop.

But, I mean, none of the races in WoW (aside from Blood Elves, humans and... dwarves to an extent) share many similarities with their counterparts in other fantasy. Warhammer example earlier: I go from Warhammer, to Forgotten Realms to WoW and have three different kinds of orcs. Warhammer matches the orc physicality, but their mental aptitude is woefully lesser than that of the Warcraft orcs. Then you introduce a Forgotten Realms orc are closer to the Warcraft orc, but would probably be more likely to kill/violate/eat a human outright.

A Warcraft orc would most likely not harm an unarmed, frightened human thinking it weak and dishonorable to kill them. But that doesn't mean the human, who has read of other orcs, might not try and kill that orc because 'Oh no, orc!' and get themselves killed.

And the difference being in the latter case from the 'fresh off the farm' to 'our world' - fresh off the farm would probably be smart enough to run from an orc, not try to stab it and run.

12/01/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
merely on the grounds that it's "old".. Despite the fact that it's not old.


Alright, let's use some other lore - because all lore is up for grabs now, right? Oh, wait it's not. You're an idiot if you think that lore is still valid in the current setting anymore.

Hal, you haven't beaten me - but go on thinking that. You need it to aid in your ego not getting deflated.

Also, I'm not against Hallintonism... whatever the hell that is.

I'm against people, any person really, saying 'NO YOU CAN'T PLAY MAKE BELIEVE THIS WAY'. And, even by pointing out the flaws (which are hardly flaws) you are saying no. By saying 'possible not plausible' you're saying no. But go on, believe you're almighty and right - it's a bitter taste that I grew used too with you.

12/01/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
Because right now your arguments are convoluted and exceedingly weak. The only thing which even remotely keeps them together is your self-righteous inability to ever accept defeat or that you might actually be incorrect, misinformed, in the wrong corner, or what have you.


Hal, Hal, Hal... you have to understand something here... My arguments aren't weak. I don't have an inability to accept defeat. I have an inability to admit defeat when a person is wrong on certain subject matter. Which happens often on this board.
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90 Human Warrior
8000
I remember being bummed there weren't monks back when I first started playing WoW back in vanilla so I made Hadhan here into the next best thing: a warrior.

When I started RP'ing as him I naturally gravitated towards what little monk lore there was (Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn monks to be specific) and I made up a rudimentary backstory about him being disillusioned by all the fighting and war and ending up joining the Argents and taking to the disciplined ways of the Argent monks.

When it was announced that monks would finally become a playable class in MoP (thank you so much btw Blizzard!) I quickly re-shifted his backstory around a bit and even re-rolled a new monk "version" of Hadhan (named "Hadhann") who is now sitting pretty at lvl 82 and climbing. I play the warrior version as his sort of "past self" and, once I manage to get his monk version to 90, I'll treat all his monk exploits as "current."

I also wound up faction-switching my DK twice; he started out as a human, race changed to Blood Elf, then in Cata race changed back to Worgen.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7110
So much wrong in this.

You don't need the Light to be a paladin, you talk about me not reading, you need to look at exactly what you quoted. WoW has transferred from their own definition of paladin to a broader sense. So the Celestials don't need to give out Light - they give out their own form of energy to their disciples and protectors.

Second, priestess of Elune are Night Elf paladins. It was common for a priestess of Elune to ride into battle in plate armour, mail and leather and wield weapons either from nightsabre back or on foot. There are also priestesses of Elune who wield bows and arrows and such - but this still comes down to them being a Night Elf paladin.


Yes. YES YOU DO. To be the in-game "paladin" class, you need the LIGHT. It's why night elves can't be "paladins" they can be warriors of their faith but not "paladins", which has a very specific definition in Warcraft. You can call a Priestess of Elune a paladin, it's still not a paladin in the sense of a warrior who wields LIGHT.

There's not a single race with actual paladins that cannot use the Light because "paladin", in this context, refers to a SKILL-SET not a character archetype of "warrior representing a faith". The skill-set of a warrior who wields the LIGHT as a WEAPON, which I have said twice now. Tauren get LIGHT from An'she. Blood elves get LIGHT from the Sunwell (formerly from M'uru), Humans, dwarves, and draenei get LIGHT from faith.
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90 Troll Shaman
9080
Yes. YES YOU DO. To be the in-game "paladin" class, you need the LIGHT. It's why night elves can't be "paladins" they can be warriors of their faith but not "paladins", which has a very specific definition in Warcraft. You can call a Priestess of Elune a paladin, it's still not a paladin in the sense of a warrior who wields LIGHT.

There's not a single race with actual paladins that cannot use the Light because "paladin", in this context, refers to a SKILL-SET not a character archetype of "warrior representing a faith". The skill-set of a warrior who wields the LIGHT as a WEAPON, which I have said twice now. Tauren get LIGHT from An'she. Blood elves get LIGHT from the Sunwell (formerly from M'uru), Humans, dwarves, and draenei get LIGHT from faith.


the tauren paladins aren't paladins like the other races are paladins

it has been stated multiple times in this thread they are more like "sun druids" but act like paldins in game due to game mechanics
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
Yes. YES YOU DO. To be the in-game "paladin" class, you need the LIGHT. It's why night elves can't be "paladins" they can be warriors of their faith but not "paladins", which has a very specific definition in Warcraft. You can call a Priestess of Elune a paladin, it's still not a paladin in the sense of a warrior who wields LIGHT.

There's not a single race with actual paladins that cannot use the Light because "paladin", in this context, refers to a SKILL-SET not a character archetype of "warrior representing a faith". The skill-set of a warrior who wields the LIGHT as a WEAPON, which I have said twice now. Tauren get LIGHT from An'she. Blood elves get LIGHT from the Sunwell (formerly from M'uru), Humans, dwarves, and draenei get LIGHT from faith.


So the tauren get their abilities from An'She. God of the Sun.

God of the Sun.

Blood Elves get their abilities first from M'uru, a Light elemental and then the reborn Sunwell... which has M'uru's 'soul' if you will as a focal point.

Humans, dwarves and Draenei get their abilities from faith in the Holy Light - the predominant religion of the Alliance.

... Aside from the Blood Elves, who can be argued to also be drawing on the Light from the Holy Light now as well... it seems all paladins get their abilities from a sort of religion.

And they all wear plate...

... and fight in close-combat...

... kind of like a warrior...

Hm... a warrior who uses faith to fight...

Nah, can't be the same thing as a paladin, which is a warrior who uses faith to fight.

Two completely different things.
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So the tauren get their abilities from An'She. God of the Sun.

God of the Sun.


An'she IS the Sun, though he is also treated as a deity in the same manner the Earthmother IS Azeroth and Mu'sha IS the moon. So, no, not God OF the Sun but God IS the Sun.

12/03/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Blood Elves get their abilities first from M'uru, a Light elemental and then the reborn Sunwell... which has M'uru's 'soul' if you will as a focal point.


This is correct, but it is exactly what I was saying. The rekindled Sunwell is the source of the Blood Knights' power via M'uru's spark.

12/03/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Humans, dwarves and Draenei get their abilities from faith in the Holy Light - the predominant religion of the Alliance.


Again, that's what I said.

... Aside from the Blood Elves, who can be argued to also be drawing on the Light from the Holy Light now as well... it seems all paladins get their abilities from a sort of religion.

And they all wear plate...

... and fight in close-combat...

... kind of like a warrior...

Hm... a warrior who uses faith to fight...

Nah, can't be the same thing as a paladin, which is a warrior who uses faith to fight.

Two completely different things.


I have no idea why you're trying to refute my argument that a "Warcraft paladin" and a "warrior representing a faith" are not one and the same by using what I've already confirmed are considered "Warcraft paladins" as an example.

It's like this: all X are Y but not all Y are X. All "paladins" are "warriors of a faith", not all "warriors of a faith" are "paladins". So you haven't actually disagreed with me here - though it seems you were trying to - but actually helped me prove my point.

A monk is a warrior of a faith (August Celestials) but it's not a paladin. A priestess of Elune is a warrior of a faith (Elune) but not a paladin. An enhancement shaman - hell, Thrall! - is a warrior of a faith (elements of the world and ancestral spirits) but not a PALADIN.

A Knight of the Silver Hand is a warrior of a faith (the Holy Light) and IS a paladin. A vindicator or exarch is a warrior of a faith (the Light) and IS a paladin. A Blood Knight is a warrior of a faith (bit of a stretch but most believe in the Light and they can harness it from the Sunwell if not) and IS a paladin. A Sunwalker is a warrior of a faith (An'she, the Sun, which gives Light) and IS a paladin.

See the difference there? Paladins use the Light in a special, weaponized way that is relatively new to Azeroth (about 20 years) and becoming a paladin is not an easy thing to do. Most of the time it requires unshakeable faith in the Light and, when it doesn't, it requires knowledge of basic druidism to harness the power of An'she as one would Mu'sha, or to be intrinsically connected to a power source that is currently "a font of Holy energy".

It's not that I'm saying a pandaren can never ever in a million years become a paladin.

I'm saying it's not likely that any pandaren of the Alliance could gain that kind of unshakeable faith in and knowledge of the Light that humans, some Bronzebeard dwarves, and draenei are practically born into from tradition and not likely for a Horde pandaren to easily grasp the concepts of druidism (an alien subject to them to begin with) that led to the unique manner in which Sunwalkers harness the Light or tap into the well-guarded lifeblood of Holy and Arcane used by the Sin'dorei.
Edited by Amorene on 12/4/2012 8:29 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
Missed this bit!

I know what you mean, conceptually, but, mechanically and lore wise, it could fit. You are now reborn as an abomination of your previous teachings. However, the gift of the Light is not lost upon you and you can now wield it as you did in life, and hunt the Scourge in unlife.

It's almost like one of those <supernatural creature> hunters who is part <supernatural creature> and thus gains insight into how to better hunt them.


Trust me, I'd LOVE undead paladins so much. A warrior of the Light who has not lost their faith and strives to protect their allies all while slowly killing themselves? Has the lovely theme of the penitent knight taken to an extreme.

12/04/2012 08:18 AMPosted by Amorene
warrior representing a faith


Warrior using faith to fight. Like a literal manifestation of fight. That is what a paladin is.

I typed it out exactly like that. They're 'warriors who use faith to fight'.

I'm sorry I might not have been clear enough on that - if this changes your argument lemme know, if not I'll go back and reread and respond.
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Doesn't change my argument that, though all paladins are "warriors who derive power from faith" not all "warriors who derive power from faith" are paladins.

In turn, I also argue that, though a pandaren's religion depends on the character, a pandaren becoming a paladin would take a great deal longer and would be incredibly difficult to justify given the current setting.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/08/2012 12:34 AMPosted by Amorene
Doesn't change my argument that, though all paladins are "warriors who derive power from faith" not all "warriors who derive power from faith" are paladins.


A lot of the in game representations would beg to differ with that.

12/08/2012 12:34 AMPosted by Amorene
In turn, I also argue that, though a pandaren's religion depends on the character, a pandaren becoming a paladin would take a great deal longer and would be incredibly difficult to justify given the current setting.


Not true given this gem I recently found:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Yalia_Sagewhisper

Pandaria pandaren who believes in the Light.
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Not true given this gem I recently found:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Yalia_Sagewhisper

Pandaria pandaren who believes in the Light.


Re-read the first part of my sentence. The pandaren's religion is a matter of character but paladin training is an entirely different matter. I never said a Pandaren can't come to believe in the Light.

12/08/2012 03:47 AMPosted by Maoseitun
A lot of the in game representations would beg to differ with that.


Name five times in lore that anything referred to as a "paladin" or given the "paladin" class doesn't use Light - no matter the source - as a WEAPON.
Edited by Amorene on 12/10/2012 3:56 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/10/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Amorene
Re-read the first part of my sentence. The pandaren's religion is a matter of character but paladin training is an entirely different matter. I never said a Pandaren can't come to believe in the Light.


But a pandaren from Pandaria believing in the Light?

After just finding out about it a few months ago?

;)

12/10/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Amorene
Name five times in lore that anything referred to as a "paladin" or given the "paladin" class doesn't use Light - no matter the source - as a WEAPON.


Twilight Paladins.
Sunwalkers - I'm sorry, they use the light of the Sun, but not the Light. Drastic difference.
Eldritch Deathlord - http://www.wowpedia.org/Eldritch_Deathlord Undead paladin who didn't use the Light.
Saidan Dathrohan under the possession of Varimathras - a corpse being possessed by a demon calling on the Light? Doubtful.

Sadly, I could only find four - but that's still a hefty amount.
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12/10/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Twilight Paladins.


They use Light. Divine Storm. Hammer of Wrath. Retribution Aura. Light.

12/10/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Sunwalkers - I'm sorry, they use the light of the Sun, but not the Light. Drastic difference.


It's Holy energy; Light. There's a difference between "the Holy Light", which is a religion observed by humans, dwarves, high elves, some blood elves, and the draenei in a somewhat different manner and "Light", the term given to describe Holy power.

Sunwalkers use Light. They do not draw power from faith in the Holy Light. It's explicitly stated several times. They even noted that it is similar to the Light commanded by night elf priests that is drawn from Elune.

As for tauren priests...

The way of the priest is a new one for our people, but it draws on the ancient traditions of our seers. In your lessons, you will learn the wisdom of the Earthmother as illuminated by the Light. Meet with me in the circle at the center of Camp Narache and we will begin your lessons.


They use the term "Light" to refer to An'she often because An'she gives the power of Light to the tauren priests and paladins. Whether or not that has something to do with the "Elune might be Naaru-related" thing is unclear and worth speculation on the Story Forum.

12/10/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Eldritch Deathlord - http://www.wowpedia.org/Eldritch_Deathlord Undead paladin who didn't use the Light.


Except that it's stated right there, in the article, that this creature is only speculated to have once been a paladin. It is an ex-paladin, anyway. A paladin who willingly committed an evil act and lost his ability to use the Light. Notice that it uses Chain Lightning and Rejuvenation, which are nature-based, not Holy-based.

Aside from that, this isn't an example of "isn't a paladin but uses Light as a weapon" but an example of "used to be a paladin".

12/10/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Saidan Dathrohan under the possession of Varimathras - a corpse being possessed by a demon calling on the Light? Doubtful.


This one has more to do with the fact that the corpse in question belonged to an actual paladin beforehand than anything to do with Balnazzar (not Varimathras).

Aside from that your point is invalid because, even though he's a demon wearing a paladin, he DOES use the Light. Crusader Strike, Crusader's Hammer, Holy Strike.

He also flings more Shadow spells as Holy spells. Domination, Mind Blast, Psychic Scream, and Shadow Shock.

But a pandaren from Pandaria believing in the Light?

After just finding out about it a few months ago?

;)


If you think that believing in the Holy Light automatically gives you the kind of devotion, knowledge, skill, and, above all, TRAINING necessary to be a paladin and takes the same, exact amount of time to accomplish, you have never studied or practiced anything in your life.

And please do not patronize me with your smiley face as if you've just made some sort of argument-shattering point in implying that faith in something is equivalent to becoming a living avatar of it. You're not enlightened just because you're a Buddhist, you're not a paladin just because you believe in the Holy Light.
Edited by Amorene on 12/15/2012 1:10 AM PST
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1 Human Rogue
0
Good god, this thread just won't die.

I've gotta respect Amorene just because he / she is as dog headed as Silver: Though far more concise and correct about it. Good show.
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Good god, this thread just won't die.

I've gotta respect Amorene just because he / she is as dog headed as Silver: Though far more concise and correct about it. Good show.


Yes but I'm actually done here. I recognize that Silver won't concede nor will he admit that my point has merit because, for whatever reason, he believes I am wrong for answering "would this fit the lore" with "no, that would not fit the lore". Either that or he believes I'm saying "your lore is bad and this can never happen because my RP is always right".

I'm just going to agree to disagree with him.

If Laers wants to roleplay a pandaren paladin, he may. It is his decision how he wants to have fun. Hell, I had lore-breaking fun before I knew the lore, I just choose to follow it as best I can now that I do. I don't regret having fun with my friends.

However, if Laers wishes to play one without breaking lore, then it cannot be done at this stage in Azeroth's history.

In that case, I recommend playing a pandaren warrior or priest who has converted to the Light in terms of faith and hopes that one day he or she may become a paladin after the necessary years of training that would allow him or her to wield the Light as a weapon.

*leaves thread*
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/15/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Amorene
They use Light. Divine Storm. Hammer of Wrath. Retribution Aura. Light.


I doubt they use the Light - they have faith in the Old Gods, not the Light or themselves. They get their powers from the Old Gods.

It's Holy energy; Light. There's a difference between "the Holy Light", which is a religion observed by humans, dwarves, high elves, some blood elves, and the draenei in a somewhat different manner and "Light", the term given to describe Holy power.

Sunwalkers use Light. They do not draw power from faith in the Holy Light. It's explicitly stated several times. They even noted that it is similar to the Light commanded by night elf priests that is drawn from Elune.


I honestly think you're using different definitions of the Light to suit your arguments, now. They use the powers of the Sun, they use 'light' but they're healing with the energies of An'She which comes from the Sun. This is not the same thing as the Light - which is its iown energy source entirely and even has elementals dedicated to it.

If we're allowing for other sources that generate 'Light' then pandaren having paladins makes even more sense given the fact they have priests who also use 'Light'.

Let's get a straight definition on what you're talking about before we proceed any further?

Except that it's stated right there, in the article, that this creature is only speculated to have once been a paladin. It is an ex-paladin, anyway. A paladin who willingly committed an evil act and lost his ability to use the Light. Notice that it uses Chain Lightning and Rejuvenation, which are nature-based, not Holy-based.

Aside from that, this isn't an example of "isn't a paladin but uses Light as a weapon" but an example of "used to be a paladin".


Mixed up rejuvenation and renew - my mistake. But then... it's an undead using nature abilities.

This one has more to do with the fact that the corpse in question belonged to an actual paladin beforehand than anything to do with Balnazzar (not Varimathras).

Aside from that your point is invalid because, even though he's a demon wearing a paladin, he DOES use the Light. Crusader Strike, Crusader's Hammer, Holy Strike.

He also flings more Shadow spells as Holy spells. Domination, Mind Blast, Psychic Scream, and Shadow Shock.


Bah - dreadlords all look alike to me!

But this point isn't invalid, anyways - I doubt Balnazzar had a sudden conversion to any divine force that generates the Light (inimical to demons). Even utilizing the corpse of a paladin - he's not realistically protected from the Light. He isn't mindcontrolling Dathrohan from a safe distance - he is physically inhabiting the body of the fallen paladin - and utilizing holy abilities.

How does that make sense?

12/15/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Amorene
If you think that believing in the Holy Light automatically gives you the kind of devotion, knowledge, skill, and, above all, TRAINING necessary to be a paladin and takes the same, exact amount of time to accomplish, you have never studied or practiced anything in your life.


Let's look at Uther - a knight first and an apprentice cleric to the Bishop who would one day be Archbishop Faol. This was during the First War, mind you, that he was a cleric - after the fall of Stormwind did he commit fully to being a paladin - now, I doubt it took 6 years for the orcs to cross from Stormwind to Lordaeron - at most it'd be half a year, I'd guess.

This means Uther had 6 months to learn a brand new form of combat...

6 months to become a paladin that was severely effective in combat.

You see, what seems to be misinterpreted here is that it's wielding the Light that takes the skill for a paladin - it's not. You pray, you chant hymns, you call upon your faith to wield the Light and shape it. The extensive training for a paladin is purely martial - there is faith training involved, don't get me wrong, but the bigger chunk of a paladin's time is devoted to arms training with sessions of prayer placed in between.

This means the biggest chunk of a pandaren paladin's training would be - martial. With faith coming back into the picture with the manifestation of abilities.

12/15/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Amorene
And please do not patronize me with your smiley face as if you've just made some sort of argument-shattering point in implying that faith in something is equivalent to becoming a living avatar of it. You're not enlightened just because you're a Buddhist, you're not a paladin just because you believe in the Holy Light.


I was more patronizing about the fact the mysterious and distant organization of the Shado-pan who is the only standing army for the pandaren and is generally in keeping with the older ways of their people has a practitioner of the Holy Light amongst its ranks.

Despite the Light only arriving a few months back.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
Either belief in 'Light' was on Pandaria a while before now - or the pandaren are extremely receptive to outside ideals.

12/15/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Amorene
Yes but I'm actually done here. I recognize that Silver won't concede nor will he admit that my point has merit because, for whatever reason, he believes I am wrong for answering "would this fit the lore" with "no, that would not fit the lore". Either that or he believes I'm saying "your lore is bad and this can never happen because my RP is always right".


Your point is confusing to me - I'm sorry.

On the one hand we're arguing about the Holy Light, then we bring up the concept of a Light in general, as shown with the Sunwalkers, and yet in both cases your point refutes pandaren paladins - you make no sense.

Either you're arguing all divine wielders draw from the same source - the Holy Light - or that divine wielders draw from faith in general, which means the idea of a pandaren paladin is even more plausible because it's general faith and not faith in the Holy Light.
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90 Human Paladin
12850
Though under normal circumstances I would agree with what you said, I would like to point out that the pandaren race available for play was from the wandering isle, not Pandaria. They've been traveling the world since around the time of the sundering, and it is possible for them to have picked up on the way of the light through travelers who may have stumbled upon them while out at sea.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7595
What I dont get is when MoP came out, all of the sudden, humans are fully trained monks. And up until MoP there was no human studies of the way of the Monk. So conceiveiably since humans becames fully trained monks so fast, couldn't pandarens become fully trained pallidans just as fast?
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