Stamina

90 Tauren Paladin
10645
Tank vets I need some understanding.

Stamina.

Historically, I have allways thought about stamina as the first priority in gearing for a tank.

Let me clarify that, i dont wanna get jumped on the the forum correction police so please bear with me a bit.

A tank, in any gearing stratagy, must have "enough health" to survive a minimum of "X" number of melee or "specials" hits or worst case scenario. Now in BC, and vanilla i was not tanking raids..and thats really what im referring to here, is raids, so ill discuss wrath and forward.

In Wrath "X" was basically 2 hits, so if a tank had basically enough health to suvive two hits, he would then gear mitigation, whether dodge/parry/block or absorbs or hit/exp, or any variation therof, it all depending on the gearing strategy that you will use for your tank. After you get "sufficient" mitigation, and "sufficient" is usually debated and theorycrafted the most on the forums and by the pros you would then gear more stam. *Note: I know in wrath with 2 being such a low number..if you could take 3..or even 4.(or had 75kplus health) it was better...making Stamina the number 1 "mitigation" stat

In Cata that improved.."X" became 5 to 6 hits. A much better place for tanks. Especially considering how much health the average tank had when it was currently tanking appropriate tier. It allowed even more focus in getting tanks working on their mitigation even though Stamina was still more or less king. For instance, once pallys were CTC capped it was widely recomended and accepted to go for stam after. I mean, even more melee or specials a tank can take is better right?

I have seen on many websites that have stat weights, Stamina is allways at or near the top, thats on ALL tanks.

Now to my question.

From what I have seen and read, 5 to 6 hits is still the "X" or the number of melee hits or specials shoot for; and seeing how, generally, according to bosses in MV,Vaults, and terrace, that puts us in the 500k to 600k health range, once we are at that range, 500k to 600k why is stam still considered so highly rated?

Wouldn't avoidance be better, or block? Or crit? lol

I realize the "needed magic health amount" varies for each raid group, and it should. A 25H tank SHOULD have more health than a Normal 10 man tank.

I guess im not really looking for an answer here lol, im just putting thoughts down.

I have just over 600k health in a 10 normal raid. Do I really need even more? Do i need to gem stam? Do i need to put stam on my ring chants, im a chanter, can i use the plate melee dps leg chant? LOL'

Thoughts?

Jake
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6455
its okay sir,i have 545k hp unbuffed.im not exactly going for stamina but its only needed to a certain amount. people say dont stack stam since it makes it harder for the healer to cap off your health. they dont notice that even when hp is not capped off,you will still have more then the other tanks so there isnt a real need to waste mana to cap off.

stamina stacking would ussually be for certain fights where most of the damage is unavoidable(like magic fights) so you need more hp to take more hard hits.

600k unbuffed might be a lil to much though lol
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
If you have enough health for your healers to comfortably use their mana efficient heals to keep you up, you don't need more health.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14580
There're two parts to stamina gearing. The first is the minimum you need to not die before your healers can get you back up.

The second is a comfort thing. It's the extra that gives healers the confidence to blink, or spot heal the raid, or use the slow heal instead of the fast one, or do anything other than stare at your healthbar with a twitchy hand over their heal spells. This is more the sort of thing you settle with your healers than with theorycrafters.

Edit: alright, there's a third - cheesing %HP effects like min Death Strike or Shield Barrier. This isn't usually a big deal on new content.
Edited by Nerfheals on 11/17/2012 11:36 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
I personally avoid getting extra stamina. The only boss I've faced so far that hits hard enough I could see extra stamina being useful for is Bladelord. That 2nd Overwhelming Assault or whatever hits really hard. Buuuut...the bear with 75k less health than me survived it with cooldowns after getting gibbed the first time.

Gem for hit in blue sockets imo. Use hit enchant on cloak instead of stam too.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/17/2012 11:56 AMPosted by Slalin
That 2nd Overwhelming Assault or whatever hits really hard.


Cooldown it.

What else are you using your cooldowns for on that fight anyway?
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90 Draenei Paladin
5475
11/17/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Rijdot
That 2nd Overwhelming Assault or whatever hits really hard.


Cooldown it.

What else are you using your cooldowns for on that fight anyway?


You should probably not take one clause out of context. Connect the dots.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
If you're dying in a raid it's because your healers are not healing you (for any number of reasons.) The way you gem and enchant your gear, while not meaningless, still has very little to do with your survival.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
Well, if you notice, im not gemming stam.

I am doing stamina enchants tho. Mainly the chants i use are tank chants..not for any other reason.

Leg enchant? Stam dodge

Shoulder? Stam dodge

Rings? Stam

I mean...too bad i cant reforge out of stam.

Jake
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15520
From a Prot Paladin point of view, Stam is our best stat after Hit/Expertise soft capping. Vengence is Stam based, being able to survive an unblock (and sometimes a blocked) hit is Stam based. We can no longer stack enough Mastery to matter at the current tier, dodge doesn't play nice with plate wearers, and parry will only get you so far. Stam is where its at for us.

Other tanks have better synergy with the other tanking stats (after Hit/Exp soft cap), and can focus on avoidance/midigation more than raw soaking like we do.

SJ
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14580
11/17/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Obernaughti
Vengence is Stam based


No more. It's based off pre-mitigation damage, with no cap.
Edited by Nerfheals on 11/17/2012 2:13 PM PST
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90 Worgen Death Knight
8175
Stamina is better for DKs because our active mitigation double dips.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
No boss in the first 2 raids needs Stamina on normal mode.

Stone Guard Heroic doesn't need Stamina either. Sha of Fear heroic probably will.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/17/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Honchtrow
Stamina is better for DKs because our active mitigation double dips.


DKs need more hps tho than other tanks, so it's K.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
From a Prot Paladin point of view, Stam is our best stat after Hit/Expertise soft capping. Vengence is Stam based, being able to survive an unblock (and sometimes a blocked) hit is Stam based. We can no longer stack enough Mastery to matter at the current tier, dodge doesn't play nice with plate wearers, and parry will only get you so far. Stam is where its at for us.

Other tanks have better synergy with the other tanking stats (after Hit/Exp soft cap), and can focus on avoidance/midigation more than raw soaking like we do.

SJ


But why? BTW no such thing as "soft-capping" exp.

And if your just talking about "taking more hits before next heal" that could be said of any tank.

600k enough? 700k? how much stamina does a tank this tier?

And how does "stacking stamina" help paladins..specifically?

Jake
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
So much misinformation... Come on people.

11/17/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Honchtrow
Stamina is better for DKs because our active mitigation double dips.


It.. doesn't double dip. It increases its minimum.

Your Blood Shield and DS heal won't change based on your stamina if you're actually taking damage.

From a Prot Paladin point of view, Stam is our best stat after Hit/Expertise soft capping. Vengence is Stam based, being able to survive an unblock (and sometimes a blocked) hit is Stam based. We can no longer stack enough Mastery to matter at the current tier, dodge doesn't play nice with plate wearers, and parry will only get you so far. Stam is where its at for us.

Other tanks have better synergy with the other tanking stats (after Hit/Exp soft cap), and can focus on avoidance/midigation more than raw soaking like we do.

SJ


None of this is correct.

You're a very bad troll, Obernaughti. You're not funny in any way shape or form and pretty much every bit of information I've ever heard you speak has been wrong, both now and in cata.

But why? BTW no such thing as "soft-capping" exp.

And if your just talking about "taking more hits before next heal" that could be said of any tank.

600k enough? 700k? how much stamina does a tank this tier?

And how does "stacking stamina" help paladins..specifically?

Jake


It doesn't help paladins any differently than it helps any tank.

These are questions only you, your playstyle and your healers can answer.

Honestly, 400k unbuffed should probably do you fine through normals assuming you're playing well. But if you need that extra buffer due to poor play, latency or neglectful healers, maybe more stamina may be for you.
Edited by Rijdot on 11/17/2012 3:37 PM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
@Jake: Honestly, 400k unbuffed should probably do you fine through normals assuming you're playing well. But if you need that extra buffer due to poor play, latency or neglectful healers, maybe more stamina may be for you.


Now thats an answer..thanks Rij

So why does every stat weight site list stamina as top stat?

And if it is? At what point is it no longer?

400k you said? Is that the stam cap? ;)

Wouldnt that change the List of BIS gear? Chants? Gems?

Is any of them accurate now?

Or is everything subjective? or somewhere between?

LOL i know..all silly questions...but i believe something to discuss.

Jake
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
11/17/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Obernaughti
From a Prot Paladin point of view, Stam is our best stat after Hit/Expertise soft capping.


1) You should have stam enough from gear naturally, and possibly from some hybrid gems made to match sockets, as well as from some socket bonuses. You shouldn't have to exclusively go for stam stam stam. Not at this point in the expansion, anyways. A boss with an unavoidable magic strike may influence us tot want to socket more stam, or double stam trinket, but... that's down the road, if at all.

11/17/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Obernaughti
Vengence is Stam based, being able to survive an unblock (and sometimes a blocked) hit is Stam based.


Vengeance is now uncapped, and based on unmitigated damage taken. Someone else can probably explain it in better detail; point is, it's not based on our health anymore.

11/17/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Obernaughti
We can no longer stack enough Mastery to matter at the current tier,


What? Of course you can stack mastery. It's that, or haste. But since you're saying mastery doesn't matter, let me remind you of what it does:

Mastery increases the damage reduction of our Shield of the Righteous, increases the healing done by Bastion of Glory buffing our Word of Glory, and increases our block chance.

With just over 10.50% mastery, that puts me at 18.54% (though remember, Mastery only works at 1% intervals instead of every % unless I'm absolutely wrong, which is possible). If I recall, base damage reduction of SotR is 38%, and 43% with Might. I'll continue enjoying the 48% overall less physical damage I take from the mastery I have currently, which I'm not particularly gemming for or reforging for. I'm quite capable of jumping up to around 58-62% reduction, give or take, with reforging (at the expense of hit/exp).

Going for mastery is definitely a viable way to gear this tier, and I still believe it to be slightly better earlier on when you can't quite budget yet for the haste setup.

11/17/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Obernaughti
dodge doesn't play nice with plate wearers, and parry will only get you so far.


Dodge isn't the best stat anymore, but it doesn't mean you should turn your nose up at it. Parry is better, but again, don't turn your nose up at it.

11/17/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Obernaughti
Stam is where its at for us.


Get out of your WotLK mentality.

But why? BTW no such thing as "soft-capping" exp.


There is, and isn't, soft capping for expertise. Soft cap in that 7.5% exp is all melee needs, and the other 7.5% is taken care of by being behind the boss. But since we're talking tank, you're always going to be in front (or at least half of the time with slower tank swap fights), 15% is the cap for us.

600k enough? 700k? how much stamina does a tank this tier?


I'm at 560.7k unbuffed. 500k is 'enough' for paladins; but like I said before, you'll naturally (or should) have enough health from the gear you get as you progress through content.

11/17/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Jakethetank
And how does "stacking stamina" help paladins..specifically?


The same as any other tank, pretty much. More health means you can take an extra hit, or another tick of a dot, while your healers scramble to top you off again.

To sum this up into a TL;DR:

Stamina is something you don't need to worry about 99% of the time.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/17/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Jakethetank
So why does every stat weight site list stamina as top stat?


Because every stat weight site is stupid.

Don't ever blindly follow them.

DPS output is static. Stat weights work for that. Either something produces more DPS or it doesn't.

It doesn't work that way for tank survivability. Damage intake fluctuates.
Edited by Rijdot on 11/17/2012 4:03 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I go for stamina because, if you can get the minimum shield consistently, it's almost exactly tied with mastery (less than 1% difference) in terms of effectiveness as a mitigation stat.

When you realize that almost all of our self-heals scale with our health pool...

Put it this way: Fully raid buffed, Conversion is 22k HPS on me while active. Rune Tap is 73k. Death Strike's minimum heal is 51k, before any Scent of Blood stacks. AMS soaks obscene amounts of health.
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