Stamina

90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
I go for stamina because, if you can get the minimum shield consistently, it's almost exactly tied with mastery (less than 1% difference) in terms of effectiveness as a mitigation stat.

When you realize that almost all of our self-heals scale with our health pool...

Put it this way: Fully raid buffed, Conversion is 22k HPS on me while active. Rune Tap is 73k. Death Strike's minimum heal is 51k, before any Scent of Blood stacks. AMS soaks obscene amounts of health.


OP is not a DK. Ergo, he won't value stam the same way you will.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
11/17/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Sparklefever
So why does every stat weight site list stamina as top stat?
Off the top of my head I'm guessing you're referring to one or all of the below:

1) AMR
2) maxdps
3) noxxic

All of these suck, that's why. :)
400k you said? Is that the stam cap? ;)
I tanked 3/6H MSV, 6/6 HoF, and 4/4 Terrace with ~380k or less unbuffed. Also I only had a helm with a meta socket when we started Terrace. ALSO, it's still a 458 PvP helm.
11/17/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Jakethetank
LOL i know..all silly questions...but i believe something to discuss.
And it has been, in detail, on the GOOD theorycrafting sites like maintankadin.

Just.. just read Theck's blog at sacredduty. You'll find it if you google it. :l


Been there, done that. Sacred duty is where i got the 5 to 6 hit being enough stam.

I understand that we have "enough" stamina on our gear...I certainaly see that on mine anyway. I removed any Solid gems i had when i got my second stam trink. I removed any x/stam gems as well...still at 600k plus

I am not currently tanking 25heroic Empress yet so o dont feel i need 600k plus health. When i replaced the gems it got me thinking.

I have stam chants on my rings...could replace those with strength.

I have dodge stam shoulders and dodge stam leg chants...should i replace with dps chants?

Plus stam chants on chest, back..etc..

Is there better alternatives?

Basically vets..If 400k is enough stam...should the theorycrafters relook at BIS chants or gems or whatever?

That may change BIS trink lists. And more.

I can't tell you how thrilled i am to not be constrained to "tank" gear.

I really like my new prot back :) Why did i put the "BIS tank chant plus stam" on it again?

jake
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
11/17/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Jakethetank
Basically vets..If 400k is enough stam...should the theorycrafters relook at BIS chants or gems or whatever?
Not really, because the other options are just terrible in comparison where Stamina is recommended over something else.
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
I go for stamina because, if you can get the minimum shield consistently, it's almost exactly tied with mastery (less than 1% difference) in terms of effectiveness as a mitigation stat.

When you realize that almost all of our self-heals scale with our health pool...

Put it this way: Fully raid buffed, Conversion is 22k HPS on me while active. Rune Tap is 73k. Death Strike's minimum heal is 51k, before any Scent of Blood stacks. AMS soaks obscene amounts of health.


I don't necessarily agree with this. On any hard hitting boss the majority of your stam bonus is only going to be those conversion/RT/AMS heals which overall don't contribute that much to survivablity. If you are able to time death strike during a hard hitting boss, mastery is going to give you significantly more overall mitigation/healing and significantly more EH on the next 1-2 melee swings than stam would.

And yes i know this it OT from what the OP is talking about.
Edited by Runtime on 11/17/2012 10:30 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12800
11/17/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Jakethetank
Basically vets..If 400k is enough stam...should the theorycrafters relook at BIS chants or gems or whatever?


No, not really. For a while I was switching between the cloak's stam enchant and a hit enchant, depending on how my hit was looking. If there were, say, a mastery for cloak, or haste for cloak...
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100 Draenei Warrior
14190
Going back to the original point of the OP, this is why I hate seeing stamina in stat weights for tanks. Yes, stamina is important for tanks, but it plays a completely different role in tank stats than any other stat, so comparing it against other stats is meaningless.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/17/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Jakethetank
So why does every stat weight site list stamina as top stat?


Icy-veins:

"1. Stamina (until you have enough, see below);"

"Most encounters have abilities that cannot be mitigated or avoided. Also, you need to have a decent amount of health, in order to give yourself the chance to be healed before a subsequent attack kills you. As such, you need a minimum amount of Stamina. This amount will, in most cases, simply come from the Stamina found innately on your gear. Therefore, you should never have to go out of your way to gem for Stamina."

Noxxic:

"Stamina
Increases your total health. You want to stack just enough Stamina to survive a couple of hits from bosses so that your healers have time to react."

MMO-Champ:

Doesn't suggest stamina at all.

MaxDPS.com:

Suggests CTC and is horridly out-of-date.

Which site are YOU looking at that says Stamina first? Because even Icy-Veins and Noxxic aren't telling you to stack.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645

Which site are YOU looking at that says Stamina first? Because even Icy-Veins and Noxxic aren't telling you to stack.


Icy Veins recommends Solids for blue gem slots and variations of stam gems for green and oarnge.

AMR stat weights done by "theck" btw

Stam 4
Physical Hit 3
Expertise 2.99
Mastery 1
Haste 0.9
Armor 0.64
Strength 0.5
Dodge 0.25
Parry 0.25

I'm sure you could think of a few others.

This post is becoming more about my being wrong instead of what i would hope to discuss so let me try this out.

After a tank has "enough" Stamina. Should it be recomended that...

They get the Strength +170 chant on wrists as opposed to major dodge? or even mastery?

They get GLorious stats as opposed to stamina on their chest?

Enchanters could get Plus strength to thier rings instead of plus stam.

Backs, well backs could be hit but if your hit capped....


Avoidance:

Stamina > Parry >= Dodge > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Haste > Expertise (7.5%)

Mitigation:

Stamina > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Haste > Expertise (7.5%) > Parry >= Dodge

Control:

Stamina > Melee Hit (7.5%) >= Expertise (15%) > Mastery > Haste > Parry >= Dodge


Listed on wow-hereos.

Control + Threat
Stamina > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (15%) > Mastery > Haste > Parry > Dodge

Survival
Stamina > Parry > Dodge > Mastery > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Haste > Expertise (7.5%)


Listed on Noxxic.com

I dont think these guys are wrong,...per say, i think stamina needs to be discussed more than

"get enough"

Jake
Edited by Jakethetank on 11/18/2012 7:30 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
7345
Jake... I think what you're trying to get at here is:

"After I have enough HP to consider myself and my healers comfortable with myself, what should I gem/reforge/enchant myself to be the best?"

And, as far as I can tell, the answer is as follows:

"After you have a comfortable amount of health, gem/reforge/enchant yourself in such a way that you continue to enjoy tanking and your healers are comfortable healing you."

Have enough Health, and want to do more damage? Get some DPS pieces.
Have enough Health, and want to take less damage overall? Avoidance is for you!
Have enough Health, and want to be 'easier' to heal? Control, my friend!

It's completely up to you in how you prioritize yourself, the idea of BiS enchants/gems/reforges is essentially (imo) out of the game design now with the paladin tanking model.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570

Which site are YOU looking at that says Stamina first? Because even Icy-Veins and Noxxic aren't telling you to stack.


Icy Veins recommends Solids for blue gem slots and variations of stam gems for green and oarnge.


And yet it also states, and I quote:

"Therefore, you should never have to go out of your way to gem for Stamina."

I dont think these guys are wrong,...per say, i think stamina needs to be discussed more than

"get enough"

Jake


The reason why Stamina gets boiled down to "get enough" is because for -most- tanks, Stamina provides absolutely no mitigation benefit whatsoever.

Let's say you have two tanks, one has 400k hit points, and the other has 600k hit points. On the surface it seems the first tank is less resilient. Let's also say that the first tank has 60% damage mitigation, and the second tank has 50% damage mitigation. On top of this, let's also assume for the sake of argument both tanks are taking 100K dps before mitigation.

Alright.

The first tank will reduce that 100K dps down to 40K dps, and the second tank will reduce it down to only 50K dps. That means without healing, the first tank will die in ten seconds.

The second tank, on the other hand, has twelve seconds before he dies--so he's more resilient, right?

Well... that depends on the healers.

Let's say your healers can handle 30k dps while remaining mana positive.

The first tank can be kept alive without spending mana for 40 seconds. The second tank, on the other hand, can only be kept alive without spending mana for 30 seconds.

On top of this, the first tank's healers only need to spend enough mana to get 10k hps to top him off, where the second tank's healers need to spend enough mana to get 20k hps. Now assuming that doing so is equally manaefficient for both, that means that the first tank's healers will burn half as much mana as the second tank's healers.

That is why 'enough' is the best anyone can really advise--it's truly a situation that you can only measure vs the content you run, the healers you work with, etc. You really can't just say 'stack to X stamina and the rest is all parry/dodge' or any such nonsense.
Edited by Kickgruntler on 11/18/2012 8:06 AM PST
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100 Draenei Warrior
14190
This is why I was saying I don't like putting stamina on the same stat weight comparison thing as the other stats. Its function is entirely different.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
11/18/2012 08:05 AMPosted by Kickgruntler
That is why 'enough' is the best anyone can really advise--it's truly a situation that you can only measure vs the content you run, the healers you work with, etc. You really can't just say 'stack to X stamina and the rest is all parry/dodge' or any such nonsense.


Makes complete sense


After a tank has "enough" Stamina. Should it be recomended that...

Jake


There was a big debate in the tanking forums in cata about what to do after reaching CTC cap.

Whether we should go for dps, or for avoidance, or for stamina. At the time, more stamina, was the generally accepted way to go. Although the "more dps" route is what most peeps wanted to go.

Now that we, i mean tanks in general, have "enough" stamina, is more stamina the way to go?

Wouldn't DPS or Threat stats be the best way to go now? Would that change the "recommended way to gem, enchant, reforge, and gear?"

If i am at 500k health, hit and expertise capped, 30%block, 7%dodge and 17% parry...

Where do i go from here? More avoidance stats? or is strength and haste the way to go?
And this is just for pallies. Will dks ever have enough health? Will bears?

This is why I was saying I don't like putting stamina on the same stat weight comparison thing as the other stats. Its function is entirely different.


Thank you Waniou.

Something to think about....i think anyway.

jake
Edited by Jakethetank on 11/18/2012 8:53 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13900
It also matters if you raid 10 or 25, and how good or bad your DPS and healers are. I find that in 25-mans, I need slightly more (not a crapton more) stamina for the healers to feel comfortable. Will of the Emperor and Elegon are good examples just from MSV. Usually I have to take a breath on Elegon with 8+ stacks due to how long it takes DPS to get protectors down because the other tank is busy out there. And it hurts. Also on Will of the Emperor, even saving 5 holy power during every dance, I can't cover the full duration of melee swings until they dance again, and I don't have a cooldown up for every second or third one (saving GoAK for Titan Gas).

Again, it really depends on what you're raiding and your raid group. I found when I got more stam, my death issues on Will went away. Even giving healers that extra time (1 melee swing's worth of time) to finish what they were casting and heal me made a HUGE difference when I have 5 healers floating around, especially during Titan Gas.

FYI I sit at about 589k HP fully raid buffed if I remember correctly. I find that to be 'enough' for me and my group. 400k would be too low for me, but I'm not even sure I could get that low without pulling off gear.
Edited by Dekkar on 11/18/2012 9:32 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
It.. doesn't double dip. It increases its minimum.


Playing devil's advocate here, but gemming for stamina at the expense of other stats increases the amount of raw damage you take, increasing your blood shields.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/18/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Quard
It.. doesn't double dip. It increases its minimum.


Playing devil's advocate here, but gemming for stamina at the expense of other stats increases the amount of raw damage you take, increasing your blood shields.


It depends on how much damage was taken as to whether it maths out to be more damage reduction or not. Gives me a headache thinking about it.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14965
11/18/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Quard
gemming for stamina at the expense of other stats increases the amount of raw damage you take, increasing your blood shields.


I'm pretty sure that arguing stamina is more effective at reducing damage because you take more damage isn't going to get you very far. :p
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100 Human Warrior
17730
11/18/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Nerfheals
gemming for stamina at the expense of other stats increases the amount of raw damage you take, increasing your blood shields.


I'm pretty sure that arguing stamina is more effective at reducing damage because you take more damage isn't going to get you very far. :p


Only with regards to DK blood tanks due to blood shield

I'm curious, how much of this discussion about stam levels applies equally to warrior tanks? Typically war/pally share most of the basic stuff. There's usually some minute differences (like in DS going for more mastery after ctc cap or not depending on the class). Does the general theme of this discussion apply equally to all shield tanks?
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
11/18/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Khahan
Only with regards to DK blood tanks due to blood shield


While technically having more stamina and less of other stats does mean death strike will heal for more, it does not mean your blood shields will be bigger or that you will take less damage overall.
Edited by Runtime on 11/18/2012 4:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12995
I run 598k self buffed and I honestly I don't need that much, I could probably drop 50-60k and still be fine, although 25 mans are a lot different than the 10 mans that I do.
I can only imagine what I'll jump up to once I can replace my belt and legs with something other than these blues and lfr gear.

still waiting for elegon to drop his trinket so I can drop the dmf one.
Edited by Salloreon on 11/18/2012 9:08 PM PST
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