An explanation for Tyrande in Mists

100 Human Warrior
17035
If they want to play up Tyrande being possessed by the Sha and having that be what amplifies her negative emotions, that might be a good time for Thrall and his supposedly growing group of discontent good orcs to help the Alliance purge her of the presence so they get their good deed in for the expansion. Might be interesting.
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100 Human Paladin
15575
Back in WCIII, it's not like Tyrande was a bastion of patience and understanding. She saw something she didn't know or understand, and if she could kill it, you can damn well bet she had a bunch of sentinels kill it. Argument with a few Wardens? Time to cut a bloody path of destruction through their ranks.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
11/17/2012 05:57 PMPosted by Vesran
Back in WCIII, it's not like Tyrande was a bastion of patience and understanding. She saw something she didn't know or understand, and if she could kill it, you can damn well bet she had a bunch of sentinels kill it. Argument with a few Wardens? Time to cut a bloody path of destruction through their ranks.


They attacked her first....
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100 Night Elf Druid
15980
Tyrande's character feels rather odd to me. I didn't play the Warcraft games, so I never saw that side of Tyrande. The first impression I got was a tall lady in a dress. She didn't look like a warrior (And by this I mean a fighter, not a warrior class) and I think her new model looks even less like a person who actually has to do more than stand around and look pretty. (I really hate the new model, just as a disclaimer.)

Tyrande looks like a priestess. That makes her look like a calmer, less headstrong character than she is. In this context, it makes more sense to feel strange about seeing her act brashly - she just doesn't look like the sort of person to act that way. If she were to get a model with something more like armor and less like a revealing dress, she might seem like a character who might rush headfirst into things if she thinks she can win.

The point I'm trying to get at, I suppose, is that Tyrande's character doesn't feel consistent. As a preistess of Elune, she seems like a patient person. We have not seen her really do anything warlike before in WoW, so this action doesn't feel like it fits with her character (or at least what we've seen of it).
Edited by Aviala on 11/17/2012 8:23 PM PST
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
She was patient. People like to forget one of Tyrande's key abilities in WC3 was a scout to crawl out the map.

As a Night Elf player, you were never taken off guard. You were never surprised. You knew where mines were, you knew where bases were, and you knew what level of tech you were looking at.

Tyrande is a priestess, yes. But a Night Elf priestess isn't a cloth and heal.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15980
11/17/2012 08:30 PMPosted by Ferlion
As a Night Elf player, you were never taken off guard. You were never surprised.


This seems to make the scenario even more confusing, because from what I hear it's Tyrande trying to charge in witout trying to learn what's inside first. But, this is all just what I've heard.

11/17/2012 08:30 PMPosted by Ferlion
Tyrande is a priestess, yes. But a Night Elf priestess isn't a cloth and heal.


True, and I know this - from talking to other RPers. I haven't seen any armor-clad priestesses charge into battle with glaives, or at least none that were shown to be priestesses. Also, as I've mentioned, I've never seen Tyrande do anything before because I haven't played the Warcraft games. So I have little clue as to how she's a warlike character who would charge blindly in to an enemy's position, which is what I feel is the problem.

Tyrande does not -look- like a character who would act that way. (To me, she now looks like she'd detest war because she might break a nail or ruin her hair. Again as a disclaimer, I really dislike the new model.)
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
The new model is largely disliked. It's a horrible abomination, and I'm not even going to try and defend it anymore.

Anyway, it's totally out of character for her. This entire scenario is completely BS character assassination.
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90 Human Warlock
13830
The new model is largely disliked. It's a horrible abomination, and I'm not even going to try and defend it anymore.

Anyway, it's totally out of character for her. This entire scenario is completely BS character assassination.


The worst part is the heels... oh god why do graphic artists feel the need to put high heels on every female character...

Tyrande in WC3 has a kill first, ask questions later mentality, but she wasn't a gung-ho warrior like Varian who charges into the teeth of the enemies' prepared defenses. That's not how NElves worked. She was more of a 'strike swiftly in the dead of night at a strategic target from the weakest angle' type.
She also didn't have Furion make all her decisions for her, and had occaison to countermand his orders.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0

Anyway, it's totally out of character for her. This entire scenario is completely BS character assassination.


There's nothing out of character about Tyrande acting recklessly, especially given the circumstances.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065

Anyway, it's totally out of character for her. This entire scenario is completely BS character assassination.


There's nothing out of character about Tyrande acting recklessly, especially given the circumstances.


You keep saying this, and every time you've been challenged on it, you've not given an answer.

Put up or shut up.

It's that simple.

The simple truth is, she's never acted recklessly. Barring Seeds of Faith mother/daughter thing. That was reckless. In WC3, the closest is Illidan, and even then, it proved to be the correct move as it saved Azeroth.

There isn't a time she was reckless. Sorry, but it doesn't exist. Not for combat situations.
Edited by Ferlion on 11/18/2012 12:35 AM PST
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Actually..

Let me do it for you.

Night Elves first appearance against the Orcs on order from Cenarius, not Tyrande, who claimed the Orcs were fel-tainted.

Tyrande's first appearance, in the first Night Elf mission, started with her overlooking the human and orc camp, still under the impression (from Cenarius) that the Orcs were demon tainted. The humans were working with demons as far as their information said.

She then built up her bases and wrecked the Orc/Human base.

In the second mission, she painstakingly avoided Burning Legion detection, built up an army, and then wrecked a scourge encampment while being vastly outnumbered to break through the enemy lines to reach Shandris and her sentinels.

In the third mission, Tyrande, under extreme pressure, organized an army, ran over an Orc encampment, and then defeated corrupted beings of nature, all in the time it took the scourge to cut down 100 trees.

It goes on like this. Again, and again, and again, and again.

There isn't a reckless part. The only part remotely reckless was, again, Illidan. And the only thing that even hints that was reckless was people disagreed with her.. That....doesn't make her reckless. It makes her someone who doesn't agree with Malfurion.
Edited by Ferlion on 11/18/2012 12:45 AM PST
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
11/18/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Ferlion
There isn't a time she was reckless. Sorry, but it doesn't exist. Not for combat situations.


You just gave examples in the line immediately preceding that one.

But let's ignore Illidan's rescue (and the Watchers' and Califax's untimely demise) for a moment.

How about declaring war on the Alliance expedition to Kalimdor immediately on sight? And then getting her forces slaughtered by the Legion right after because of it? Even after she finds out that the Alliance was fighting a common enemy she continues to war with them until Furion and Medivh force an alliance. None of those strike you as remotely brash or reckless?

Okay, I lied about ignoring Illidan: Chasing after him by herself at the Broken Isles would have gotten her killed were it not for him choosing to spare her.

Let's not forget trying to fight an entire Scourge force basically by herself in Lordaeron. That got her swept downriver and nearly overwhelmed by the Scourge... until Illidan saved her, again.

Pre-WC3? Her suicide mission against Azshara that got every Sentinel with her killed and nearly ended her own life wasn't exactly the most well thought out attack.

Diving into the Emerald Nightmare by herself (granted, help showed up in the end, but at the time her other two companions appeared incapacitated) to try to save Furion seems pretty reckless too. It worked out in the end, but that's not what we're arguing.

What we see here is a fairly consistent pattern of Tyrande, whenever presented between waiting and planning or mounting an attack, almost always favors the latter unless it's completely unreasonable (which is basically mission 2 of RoC, where she chooses to retreat after her sentinels had been wiped out by the Legion).
In WC3, the closest is Illidan, and even then, it proved to be the correct move as it saved Azeroth.


And that's the reason people are upset here. Not because she's 'not in character', but because she happened to be wrong this time. If Tyrande's attack was successful in 5.1 no one would talk about her being rash. We'd be talking about how wonderful her decisive leadership was and how much of a dunce Varian is for wanting to wait.
Edited by Aureus on 11/18/2012 1:54 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
How about declaring war on the Alliance expedition to Kalimdor immediately on sight? And then getting her forces slaughtered by the Legion right after because of it? Even after she finds out that the Alliance was fighting a common enemy she continues to war with them until Furion and Medivh force an alliance. None of those strike you as remotely brash or reckless?


They were invading her lands, and per the information that Tyrande was working off of, they were responsible in Cenarius's death. (Take a look at that mission that you're citing one more time before you rebut)
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86 Worgen Warrior
10845
Aureus your last point says that Tyrande's brashness in Krasarang is the one moment she was portrayed as wrong, yet the other examples you brought up seem to imply she was also wrong in those situations as well. Just seems like an odd contradiction on your part.

I think the biggest issue is that Tyrande has never truly had a moment where she has been seen as a cool character. The moment in Krasarang is a lot cooler for Varian but Tyrande not so much. We still wait for that badass that the lore devs have promised, this simply doesn't cut it. However consistent with her character that may be.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
As a 10000+ year old racial leader with thousands of years of leadership experience, one would think she'd be able to channel that anger efficiently.
No-one is angry that she's angry. That is what we WANT.

But we want her to act on that anger without being mindless about it.


TYRAAAAAANDEEEEEEEEEE WHISPERWIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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100 Night Elf Druid
15980
I think the point I brought up earlier is still valid: One of the reasons this feels so out of character is that we've never seen this side of the character in WoW before. If a person (like me) who didn't play the Warcraft games were to look at this as one of Tyrande's first combat maneuvers, it seems contradictory to what we've seen of her character.

All of the examples brought up, both pro and con, come from the Warcraft games. Players like me haven't seen the combatant/reckless Tyrande before. So what I and probably some people like me see is a ten-thousand year old priestess, who appears to be a very patient and thoughtful character, charge headfirst into a fortified position without any precautions.

If Tyrande were shown to be more reckless earlier in the game, this wouldn't be a problem now (But there'd still be people who argue over it).

Perhaps if it was added that some/many of Tyrande's scouts were taken prisoner inside the temple, it would give Tyrande more reason to want to rush in and rescue them. Perhaps the scouting information she did get back implies the force is in the middle of setting up and would be caught off-guard. A few lines of text could provide a reason for her actions (And there may be a reason in the text, so I'm only slightly pre-judging) but so far, it feels very inconsistent of what I've seen of her character.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
How about declaring war on the Alliance expedition to Kalimdor immediately on sight? And then getting her forces slaughtered by the Legion right after because of it? Even after she finds out that the Alliance was fighting a common enemy she continues to war with them until Furion and Medivh force an alliance. None of those strike you as remotely brash or reckless?


First off, she was, as mentioned, working under information that the orcs were demon tainted, and the humans were helping them.

Second off, you may want to replay that mission. By the time you have enough forces built to do anything, you have been attacked by humans and orc forces several times throughout the mission, with no provocation from the Night Elves.

Okay, I lied about ignoring Illidan: Chasing after him by herself at the Broken Isles would have gotten her killed were it not for him choosing to spare her.


Maiev chased after him. Not Tyrande. Tyrande and Malfurion both arrived later. I guess I'm not remembering this mission, but I don't recall it happeneing.

Let's not forget trying to fight an entire Scourge force basically by herself in Lordaeron. That got her swept downriver and nearly overwhelmed by the Scourge... until Illidan saved her, again.


You...You can't go and call someone reckless and remove all context. That wasn't reckless.. That was her intentionally fighting the Scourge forces so Keal'thas and the rest of the Alliance forces could get away. She was buying time, and purposely giving her life to save more.

Pre-WC3? Her suicide mission against Azshara that got every Sentinel with her killed and nearly ended her own life wasn't exactly the most well thought out attack.


Lets see.... She didn't have a suicide mission against Azshara. In fact, Azshara never saw combat. The closest Tyrande had was when she was captured by Satyr, who were at the time a relatively new enemy. I'll have to look up the situations regarding it, but as I recall it had little to do with her being reckless.

Diving into the Emerald Nightmare by herself (granted, help showed up in the end, but at the time her other two companions appeared incapacitated) to try to save Furion seems pretty reckless too. It worked out in the end, but that's not what we're arguing.


It wasn't reckless. She had plans, fall back plans, a leader in line for the Night Elves in case she failed, a vision from her goddess, AND the ability to hold of the Nightmare, and the only other known thing that could do that was an artifact by the son of her goddess. Or do you not remember the whole thing where Tyrande not only placed Shandris in charge, but appointed her the new leader if she were to fail? That's, again, not reckless behavior.

See, the pattern with Tyrande? She ALWAYS plans things out in case she fails. She also always built up her forces in WC3 instead of rushing right in.

Even in Seeds of Faith, when her daughter was potentially in danger, she waited for reports on Feathermoon Isle before going, and when she landed...We didn't get to see what she would have one because Malfurion showed up almost immediately. And then announced to every Naga in the area that "Hey guys! right here. Here we are!!!" You remember that? Malfurion has a bigger record of being reckless than Tyrande.

Your taking things without context, and then throwing them up as example, but that doesn't work.

And that's the reason people are upset here. Not because she's 'not in character', but because she happened to be wrong this time. If Tyrande's attack was successful in 5.1 no one would talk about her being rash. We'd be talking about how wonderful her decisive leadership was and how much of a dunce Varian is for wanting to wait.


No, people are upset because she's wanting to just rush in without any of her normal things.. Like, you know.. Planning. And, even that, which could be ignored, is only made worse by her whining.

Which is the biggest issue in the scenario. She whines. It's not even mistakable for anything else. That's what has peoples knickers in a twist.
Edited by Ferlion on 11/18/2012 11:29 AM PST
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
As a 10000+ year old racial leader with thousands of years of leadership experience, one would think she'd be able to channel that anger efficiently.

No-one is angry that she's angry. That is what we WANT.

But we want her to act on that anger without being mindless about it.


TYRAAAAAANDEEEEEEEEEE WHISPERWIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Is it bad that I read that in Ricky Ricardo's voice?
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11/18/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Aviala
I think the point I brought up earlier is still valid: One of the reasons this feels so out of character is that we've never seen this side of the character in WoW before. If a person (like me) who didn't play the Warcraft games were to look at this as one of Tyrande's first combat maneuvers, it seems contradictory to what we've seen of her character.


I believe were seeing the consequences of Blizzard waiting so long to put the faction leaders in the thick of things. While they have had their moments like Tyrande helping out in Moonglade to purify that dragon, they largely remained in their Capital cities. As such people who got in the Warcraft series with WoW didn't see them in unless a raid was going on.

There's also how they are presented in WoW to consider as well. Her former model made her look like a calm, less headstrong character for people like Aviala. So seeing that for so long just creates and instills that impression on players regardless of any model updates.

11/18/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Aviala
A few lines of text could provide a reason for her actions (And there may be a reason in the text, so I'm only slightly pre-judging) but so far, it feels very inconsistent of what I've seen of her character.


Someone should do that scenario when it comes out and let us know.

Now I've noticed that people here want Tyrande to channel that anger efficiently. To be honest I can understand that and I do wish she was more bad !@# during it. However I can't help but ask this question.

If someone stole something important to you from your own home would you be able to channel your anger efficiently?

In that same regard Tyrande has been living in Darnassus(home), which has been untouched by the Horde since it's foundation. So not only is she realizing that her home is not as safe and protected like she thought it was, the Divine Bell (something important) was stolen. She has every right to be pissed and want payback on the Horde.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
The entire bell being stolen at all from Darnassus is a stupid thing. It should have never been revealed to be in Darnassus by a Night Elf TELLING the Horde. In words. With vocal noises.

It should have been much more heavily guarded. And the land should have shouted immediately "Guys, guys.... Magic going on. Guys, anyone? Need some help?" like they did with the Highborn in wolfheart. Malfurion knew magic was happening because he was told.

So, since we know that happens, you know what that makes the divine bell situation?

It makes it another case of Malfurion and the Druids knowing that the Horde is doing something bad, and not doing anything about it. Unless you want to try and make the argument that they just were not there. Despite the fact that I'm almost 100% sure there are druids in the videos I've seen... That they left at level 55 elite like it was in the actual zone of Darnassus.
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