My guilds MSV progression..?

80 Undead Death Knight
9025
My guild that I raid with on my main toon has recently started raiding in MoP. We got our first Stone guards kill last week and then proceeded to Feng the Accursed. We wiped a few times and called it quits. This week we one shot the stone guards. We then spent the rest of our raiding week wiping on Feng. I initially thought our gear was lacking but after checking every ones armory we have an average iLvl of 473. I thought MSV was tuned for 463 so why is my guild not making any progress? What kind of dps do we need? I'm currently pulling top dps at 50k and nobody else on the team is breaking 40k at this point. On top of all that we raid at an extremely casual schedule of two nights per week for only two hours. I just can't decide if this guild is actually going anywhere or if we are bad. Are other guilds having this much trouble in MSV?
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97 Draenei Death Knight
13560
Is everyone in your raid fully gemmed and enchanted? Do you have flasks and other consumables? Preparation is quite important.

As for the fight itself, do you have logs of your Feng attempts? It is hard to diagnose what is going on without them.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9360
Its tuned for 463 with good skill and execution. A lot of guilds have had the same kind of problems you have outlined in any amount of gear, its a whole different animal than DS. If you raid that little and intend to make progress before nerfs you gotta make sure that the rest of your group is doing what they can to maximize their dps and healing and damage reduction and that everyone knows the strategies beforehand. Feng is one of those fights where you can one or two shot it if you know the strategy and plan for his cds or you can wipe for a while with no real plan intact.

In short: You are not bad, you just need to reevaluate everyone's performance and make sure that they are carrying their weight. In 473's it'll be trivial if everyone does their part.
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100 Pandaren Warrior
16360
11/19/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Posthumôus
What kind of dps do we need? I'm currently pulling top dps at 50k and nobody else on the team is breaking 40k at this point.


That would be ok if you were in dragon soul.

At this point you should be the lowest if you're doing 50k.
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80 Undead Death Knight
9025
Is everyone in your raid fully gemmed and enchanted? Do you have flasks and other consumables? Preparation is quite important.

As for the fight itself, do you have logs of your Feng attempts? It is hard to diagnose what is going on without them.


Everyone is gemmed and enchanted. We pass out flasks to everyone and prepare banquets. Unfortunately I don't believe we have any logs? Do I need an addon for that? Maybe I can record them next week. It's also worth noting we have fought feng to the enrage timer twice. We know the fight we just can't beat the timer when we have good runs.
Edited by Posthumôus on 11/19/2012 10:02 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
What kind of dps do we need? I'm currently pulling top dps at 50k and nobody else on the team is breaking 40k at this point.


That would be ok if you were in dragon soul.

At this point you should be the lowest if you're doing 50k.


This ^

With the kind of dps you guys have, everyone needs to pick it up, or likely you will never pass Garajal, or Elegon, where there enrage will pose a big issue for you with that kind of dps.

Feng is largely mechanics, so if you have logs maybe we can help, how are you handling the fight though? Feng isn't a dps check.

Where are you having problems? Fist, Spear, or Staff? If you have 2 good tanks, you can make sure an Epicenter almost never goes through so you have stuns, and barriers for every other one. If he is tanked against the wall, and everyone goes to the middle when you don't have anything for epicenter you take less damage.

We have always bloodlusted/timewarped during Spear. You should realistically only get 2 Draw Flames, but with your dps, you will get 3. If this is the case, you should barrier the first, and the third, and then push staff.

For staff we tanked him in the middle for both 10m and 25m, and had melee stack, all healers and ranged spread. Stacked for velocity after resonance had gone out, and spread towards the end of Velocity so there was never a resonance in the raid.

Where are you having problems with Feng? This fight is all simple mechanics, so you might have to change how you approach him.

EDIT: If the enrage is the problem, unless your dps drastically improve, you will never make it past the third boss even if you kill him. If you want to do any sort of progression, the dps have to improve, be replaced, or you would have to find a new raid group.
If it's any indicator... we pugged 6 people last week with a few of our alts, and did 4/6.
Edited by Carbuncle on 11/19/2012 10:07 AM PST
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97 Draenei Death Knight
13560
Everyone is gemmed and enchanted. We pass out flasks to everyone and prepare banquets. Unfortunately I don't believe we have any logs? Do I need an addon for that? Maybe I can record them next week. It's also worth noting we have flight feng to the enrage timer twice. We know the fight we just can't beat the timer when we have good runs.


I use Loggerhead to automatically turn logging on and off - then you want to head to worldoflogs.com to create a profile and upload the log file. Make sure you are running it before your next raid.

If you are hitting the enrage timer, then you are in fact most likely looking at a DPS issue, in which case the logs will give you a picture of who is consistently behind. You could also run LFR as as guild while logging, which will give you more data to look at.
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80 Undead Death Knight
9025
11/19/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Carbuncle


That would be ok if you were in dragon soul.

At this point you should be the lowest if you're doing 50k.


This ^

With the kind of dps you guys have, everyone needs to pick it up, or likely you will never pass Garajal, or Elegon, where there enrage will pose a big issue for you with that kind of dps.

Feng is largely mechanics, so if you have logs maybe we can help, how are you handling the fight though? Feng isn't a dps check.

Where are you having problems? Fist, Spear, or Staff? If you have 2 good tanks, you can make sure an Epicenter almost never goes through so you have stuns, and barriers for every other one. If he is tanked against the wall, and everyone goes to the middle when you don't have anything for epicenter you take less damage.

We have always bloodlusted/timewarped during Spear. You should realistically only get 2 Draw Flames, but with your dps, you will get 3. If this is the case, you should barrier the first, and the third, and then push staff.

For staff we tanked him in the middle for both 10m and 25m, and had melee stack, all healers and ranged spread. Stacked for velocity after resonance had gone out, and spread towards the end of Velocity so there was never a resonance in the raid.

Where are you having problems with Feng? This fight is all simple mechanics, so you might have to change how you approach him.

EDIT: If the enrage is the problem, unless your dps drastically improve, you will never make it past the third boss even if you kill him. If you want to do any sort of progression, the dps have to improve, be replaced, or you would have to find a new raid group.
If it's any indicator... we pugged 6 people last week with a few of our alts, and did 4/6.
well I suppose it is the dps. We catch way too many draw flames in phase two and healers have tons of trouble in phase 3 because of the long second phase. Even on a perfect attempt where no DPS died he enraged at 2%. I guess we aren't going to be making it past the third boss anyway at this rate.
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If you are making it to enrage then you do need to up your dps some. However, that said, if you have a long ph2 (4 draw flames), do not nulify the first and third. Save it for the second and fourth. This will help your healers a bunch. Lusting during the final draw flame that does damage can also help with some of that pressure too.

Also, have everyone use a 4000 stat potion before the pull and then a second during lust.
Edited by Conneri on 11/19/2012 10:43 AM PST
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90 Undead Death Knight
9115
post a log.

Generally speaking that fight is a tank fight. If your tanks don't fail you should be able to beat him
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40 Orc Warlock
10460
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lethon/Goronn/advanced

Your rogue seems to be doing fine, stats are about right.
But it's very to determine what is going wrong without logs :(
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
Feng is an execution fight. Do it right and it's simple. Do it wrong and it becomes difficult. This fight is not a dps fight so much as a mechanics, although it can strain healer mana if it goes too long/too many mistakes. Draw flame is probably an area that is being done poorly. How many draw flames are you getting and how many stacks? If people get hit by draw flame the stacks can get out of control which means the damage is also out of control. Arcane velocity requires healer mana and if they burned through it all because of too many draw flames or too many stacks, you're in trouble. This is assuming your healers weren't in bad shape going into p2 from p1.

Edited to add do you have anyone to pop heroes? When we first started on him we'd pop heroes right after hitting p2 to ensure we only had 3 draw flames. It worked like a champ. But it's really important for people to drop their flames to the side and have players shift to the opposite side during draw flames so they don't get hit causing too many stacks.
Edited by Rainstorms on 11/19/2012 7:36 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485
The Shroud of Reversal tank can do a ton of DPS if he knows how to use the Shroud properly.

Phase 1 he should steal Lightning Fist to conserve healer mana.

Phase 2 and 3, he should steal the tank debuff (Flaming Spear / Arcane Shock) and put them on the boss. The DOTs do 100k dmg every 2 seconds, so if your DPS is low, the Shroud tank alone can contribute over 40k dps just by using the Shroud everytime its off CD in Phase 2 and 3.
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100 Worgen Warrior
8190
If your average item level is 473 and you can't kill him, your execution is not good enough and/or your players are not playing anywhere near there full potential.

Execution:
1) Make sure you have a good class mix to get all raid buffs. Remember that hunters pets can be used to fill in gaps on missing raid buffs!
2) Healing should be handled by two healers + support from hybrids (shaman HST/HTT, druid tranquility, shadow priest hymns, etc).
3) Tanks need to swap at 2 stacks of the debuff, shroud tanks can not miss a lightning fist opportunity and must grab damage abilities and use against boss in p2/p3 to help with dps. Nullification tank needs to time it and place it properly every time, etc.
4) DPS needs to stack in p1 for healing aoe, drop wildfire sparks off in right place in p2 and get out of raid in p3 when they get arcane resonance. They need to avoid getting hit by lightning fists and fire during draw flame.
5) Everyone should use the healing / damage mitigation talents and abilities that make the most sense for this fight. For example, a warrior should use impending victory for a free 10% heal every 30 seconds and safeguard on the tank that has agro when it is up. Warriors should also keep their banners on CD (many warriors don't fully understand or use the banners - demoralizing banner reduces raid damage by 10% for 15 seconds with a 3 minute CD - each warrior can use it to help mitigate damage at least twice in a fight. Skull banner can be used during heroism, etc.). Shamans should use stone bulwark totem when damage is being taken (epicenter, draw flame, arcane resonance, etc). Get a warlock in raid for healthstones, it helps.

Individual performance:
A lot has changed in MOP and there is sometimes conflicting information out there about stat priorities and rotations. Your players need to do the research and experiment to make sure they are fully optimized. I have personally seen players improve there performance 25%-50% just by optimizing glyphs, talents and tweaking rotations. 473 item level should obtain 50k sustained dps - check this using the raid target dummy over a 3 minute period.
Edited by Levix on 11/20/2012 11:54 AM PST
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Just downed this boss 2 or 3 nights ago and everyone is basically wearing 463 gear. and we had one person pulling over 50k everyone else is 30? 35 maybe. we downed the boss after 2 wipes. its just strategy.But i do agree...dps should be much better. but thats casual raiding for you. not a lot of effort gets put into perfecting dps/tanking/healing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
Op
4730
If you arent already, try 2 healing. if thats not possible, then you've got bigger problems ahead of you.
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100 Gnome Mage
19770
Light hours worked in DS and FL, but players will need to temper their expectations if they raid one or two days a week. There's just a slew of bosses this tier. As long as everyone's having fun, that's what matters.
Edited by Digerati on 11/24/2012 12:32 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
21150
Stealing his abilities really helps with dps. The other tank in my raid group tops dps when he steals Fengs abilities; I take care of the barrier. We usually do well even if we fail to steal lightning fist and take every epicenter though some attempts we do get one epicenter interrupted.

We got Feng down after about 18ish pulls. Got Gara'jal to 6% this week; hopefully next week we finally get him down.

Our strategy is to use Null Barrier on every other Epicenter like 2, 4 and sometimes 6, more means dps is a bit low. When he epicenters when barrier is on cd me and other tank just run far away to lessen the damage and then run back. Also I use null barrier on the heals and ranged in the center so other tank taunts feng off me so he doesn't do a lightning fast into the raid group.

And same goes for fire phase, I absorb the fires on top of the boss every other draw flame so he effectively gets no aoe buff those times.

Then for the arcane phase I use it on the first arcane velocity unless somehow we pushed feng fast enough to where my barrier is still on cd then I use it on the 2nd velocity. Have people be aware of resonance, if they have it during velocity just heal them hard while they stay away from the group. We always pop time warp on last phase since resonance can cause a surprise wipe if someone isn't fast enough to move away.

Trust me it's not because you guys are bad it's because of the short schedule; you don't get enough practice pulls but you can still do it. My guild raids twice a week for about 2 1/2 hours so we're almost the same schedule wise but we eventually got him. Just keep pushing and keep the strategy I put in mind if you use something different.
Edited by Fawnix on 11/24/2012 4:20 PM PST
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As others have said, Feng is all execution. What made the biggest difference for us on the first kill was the OT learning how to steal/interrupt the epicenter. If that doesn't get stolen reliably then everybody wastes time running in and out. When that happens, you get what appears to be a dps and healer mana issue, but it's actually a tanking issue.

Now at most we get one epicenter that we have to run out for. The others either get interrupted or shielded. That's a huge dps boost, and a big boon to healer mana so they're pretty flush going into p2.

I forget how many draw flames we have in p2, but you need to figure out exactly how many you get so that the last one can be bubbled. Otherwise you'll have unhealable amounts of damage going into p3.
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