[Possible Spoilers]: Kaldorei's future.

100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
11/17/2012 10:31 PMPosted by Deerde


Too bad we don't bring anything to the table.


Nonsense. One of the world trees. A beautiful capital city. Elune worship, and she is unique. Well over 10,000 years of civilization (we Johny come lately races are impressed by your antiquity.) NE are the core of druidism as well.

Giant purple people without tusks. (As opposed to the the giant purple people with tusks, who are also occasional cannibals.)

I hear the cuisine is interesting, as well.


Yep, and it all means squat, if it's not going away in the next patch.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15300
11/17/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Kyalin
The night elves have to learn that it's no longer a time of unique cultures and nations and join the global community already.


Too bad we don't bring anything to the table.

They brought infrastructure and military bases in Northern Kalimdor. That's... somethin'.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
11/17/2012 10:40 PMPosted by Omacron


Too bad we don't bring anything to the table.

They brought infrastructure and military bases in Northern Kalimdor. That's... somethin'.


Which would have been wiped off the face of the planet with little effort if not for Varian.

Because Orcs know how to fight in Ashenvale better than elves do... and can bring ridiculous assets into the fight whenever the writer wills it.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15300
11/17/2012 10:51 PMPosted by Kyalin
Because Orcs know how to fight in Ashenvale better than elves do... and can bring ridiculous assets into the fight whenever the writer wills it.

The elves haven't had to innovate on military strategy in 10,000 years. They know how to fight in a forest. The orcs are depriving them of that forest.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
Because Orcs know how to fight in Ashenvale better than elves do... and can bring ridiculous assets into the fight whenever the writer wills it.

The elves haven't had to innovate on military strategy in 10,000 years. They know how to fight in a forest. The orcs are depriving them of that forest.


Judging by what we see in Ashenvale, I wasn't aware that they needed the forest for their strategy.

I mean, they leap out in front of well-staffed ramparts and expect to win, they line up in neat little lines when they face an army of demolishers, and seem to have this strange attraction to walking around in perfectly exposed positions, regardless of whether they have cover or not. We've also learned that they like to sit in fortifications while their enemies use stealth and guile to navigate the forests.

I dunno. I've yet to see this forest strategy.
Edited by Kyalin on 11/17/2012 11:06 PM PST
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100 Human Mage
7710
Forest is useful for ambushes, but Kaldorei warfare works elsewhere. If anything, their emphasis on ranged combat is even more effective in unobstructed terrain. They ought to be able to pull off an Agincourt or two in the Barrens.

The real problem is the Horde is just massive now once assembled. NE are outnumbered in Kalimdor.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
Forest is useful for ambushes, but Kaldorei warfare works elsewhere. If anything, their emphasis on ranged combat is even more effective in unobstructed terrain. They ought to be able to pull off an Agincourt or two in the Barrens.

The real problem is the Horde is just massive now once assembled. NE are outnumbered in Kalimdor.


Indeed. A handful of ships could easily swamp any population. Doesn't matter if that population has had relative peace for over ten-thousand years.

They've got ships full of people.

Ships...
Edited by Kyalin on 11/17/2012 11:08 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Forest is useful for ambushes, but Kaldorei warfare works elsewhere. If anything, their emphasis on ranged combat is even more effective in unobstructed terrain. They ought to be able to pull off an Agincourt or two in the Barrens.

The real problem is the Horde is just massive now once assembled. NE are outnumbered in Kalimdor.


Indeed. A handful of ships could easily swamp any population. Doesn't matter if that population has had relative peace for over ten-thousand years.

They've got ships full of people.

Ships...


*Shoots a flaming arrow at Horde ships

Orc: YOU SANK MY BATTLE SHIP!!!!
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955


Indeed. A handful of ships could easily swamp any population. Doesn't matter if that population has had relative peace for over ten-thousand years.

They've got ships full of people.

Ships...


*Shoots a flaming arrow at Horde ships

Orc: YOU SANK MY BATTLE SHIP!!!!


Oh no, these aren't your regular ships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dxFIQSZpqcY#t=18s

She stood several blocks! She has twenty-seven masts! And they called her the Orcish rover!
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90 Human Warlock
13830


Indeed. A handful of ships could easily swamp any population. Doesn't matter if that population has had relative peace for over ten-thousand years.

They've got ships full of people.

Ships...


*Shoots a flaming arrow at Horde ships

Orc: YOU SANK MY BATTLE SHIP!!!!


Except the Horde builds Ironclads...
Edited by Saitharis on 11/17/2012 11:23 PM PST
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
11/17/2012 10:56 PMPosted by Omacron
Because Orcs know how to fight in Ashenvale better than elves do... and can bring ridiculous assets into the fight whenever the writer wills it.

The elves haven't had to innovate on military strategy in 10,000 years. They know how to fight in a forest. The orcs are depriving them of that forest.


Believe it or not, military strategy hasn't innovated in a very long time.

Now, you could argue that the Night Elves haven't had "adapt" but again, that's a horrible excuse.

Night Elves ALWAYS had the same troop set ups as Orcs and Humans. The Archer thing? Yeah, it wasn't all they had. Again, as I said on SoL, a Huntress-Sentinel set up was one of the strongest in the game. And, if you look at the Huntress, they were plate wearing, shield bearing, melee badasses.

That excuse doesn't fly. It never flew.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12650
The elves haven't had to innovate on military strategy in 10,000 years. They know how to fight in a forest. The orcs are depriving them of that forest.


Then how'd they learn to fight in a desert during the War of the Shifting Sands?
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100 Night Elf Druid
15300
11/17/2012 11:46 PMPosted by Ferlion
Believe it or not, military strategy hasn't innovated in a very long time.

Grant would have loved to order a drone strike on Richmond.

11/17/2012 11:46 PMPosted by Ferlion
Now, you could argue that the Night Elves haven't had "adapt" but again, that's a horrible excuse.

In ten thousand years the night elves never got the idea for !@#$ing gunpowder. Let that sink in for a bit. Ten. Thousand. Years. Bearing in mind that in those ten thousand years they had outlawed arcane magic and had most of their druids asleep, so the entirety of long ranged combat was done with bows.

11/17/2012 11:46 PMPosted by Ferlion
Night Elves ALWAYS had the same troop set ups as Orcs and Humans. The Archer thing? Yeah, it wasn't all they had. Again, as I said on SoL, a Huntress-Sentinel set up was one of the strongest in the game. And, if you look at the Huntress, they were plate wearing, shield bearing, melee badasses.

Orcs have innovated heavily in the past 30 years. Humans, we don't know how they waged war prior to the first War, unfortunately, but even in WCII we saw them innovating in unique ways like the creation of paladins. Every major change in night elf military capacity has come from outside their culture- Cenarius had to teach them to be druids, the exiled Shen'dralar had to reintroduce arcane magic, the Alliance had to teach them about firearms.

11/17/2012 11:55 PMPosted by Briswald
Then how'd they learn to fight in a desert during the War of the Shifting Sands?

The dragons did the heavy lifting in that war, if I recall.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065

Grant would have loved to order a drone strike on Richmond.


Idiot.

That isn't military strategy. That's military technologies. The concepts and strategies behind "drone" strikes are the same as the concepts of archers, just more remote.

In ten thousand years the night elves never got the idea for !@#$ing gunpowder. Let that sink in for a bit. Ten. Thousand. Years.


It's fantasy. Of course they haven't. It doesn't make bows less powerful though. It's just makes them not gunpowder. Speaking of Fantasy, while they were still using "bows" they were also using mechanized glaive throwers. As in, electronics. They also built boats that dwarfed what humans were capable of, according to Lord of his Pack.

. Bearing in mind that in those ten thousand years they had outlawed arcane magic and had most of their druids asleep, so the entirety of long ranged combat was done with bows.


Starfall, moonfire (which yes, Tyrande has used), the fog the Priestess used. In addition to that, the Keepers of the Lore and the other anciets, as well as the Mountain Giants, were throwing massive stones.. And then the Ancients in Darkshore that had heavy duty long ranged attacks. They did fine.

but even in WCII we saw them innovating in unique ways like the creation of paladins.


Wait, so the plate wearing, holy magic wielding, warrior is unique, despite them existing for 10,000 years?

See, the humans and orcs adapted because they were running into things they have not seen before. The closest thing the Night Elves have run into on that count has been the Magnataur, and even then, their defenses against giant creatures were left out for plot.

Cenarius may have "introduced" druidism, but humans didn't learn magic themselves either. Nor did Orcs. All their innovation was introduced through human culture ala Thrall. Their mechanical understanding? The Legion and goblins.

Stop looking at the world like it's our world, because it doesn't play.


The dragons did the heavy lifting in that war, if I recall.


You recall wrong.

But, to be fair, that wasn't even the Night Elven governments fight. It was Fandral, who was, at the time, the Night Elves cortez. An imperialistic dude grabbing more land for the Night Elves.

The fact is, Night Elves strengths are being ignored, and their weaknesses are being highlighted. It's a bogus story.
Edited by Ferlion on 11/18/2012 1:03 AM PST
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100 Human Mage
7710
Gunpowder weaponry is still at a relative infancy in Azeroth and highly trained archers remain competitive with it. The key is here highly trained. It's not an economical weapon system for short lived races, but the Kaldorei don't have that issue.

Magic also substitutes quite handily for heavy firepower.

There will come a point where the state of the art renders bows truly obsolete in Azeroth. IRL terms, that would be early to mid 19th century rifled weaponry and on. But not quite yet. Eventually even the kaldorei will have to transition over to it as Azeroth becomes more and more steampunk, and less high fantasy.

And magic will always be competitive. Hell, more than competitive. It's already capable of WMD. (I insist on using the term.)

Once again, the basic problem for the NE is sheer numbers. They face the bulk of the Horde in Kalimdor, with little immediate help outside the Draenei, who are themselves not very numerous (but are highly advanced themselves, at least in terms of magic.)

That's why Garrosh sought to cut them off from the Eastern Kingdoms. This is not a reflection on NE military incompetence, they are just in a very tough spot strategically.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Trying to use tech as an excuse is pointless in Azeroth.

Otherwise, Gnomes would rule the world. Their skills in robotics put ours to shame, and a single bot would and could kill "hundreds" of Orcs. They have fully automatic machine guns mounted on them.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11655
Night Elves will still be around, they wouldn't just make an entire playable race extinct all of a sudden.

These things take time, it's terrible that they've had to go through beatings to be brought down to the level of other races but in time they might get more moments where they're cool again. (Or not, I really can't predict Blizzard's writing at this point.)
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12245
I remember that someone suggested that the NElves should be slightly corrupted by fel magic (the red mist that made the Broken) and lose their connection to Elune, and overall have a massive fall from grace before rising stronger than before. A couple of NElf posters liked the idea.

I didn't think it was a good idea.

This is why.
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100 Human Mage
7710
Trying to use tech as an excuse is pointless in Azeroth.

Otherwise, Gnomes would rule the world. Their skills in robotics put ours to shame, and a single bot would and could kill "hundreds" of Orcs. They have fully automatic machine guns mounted on them.


Well, sure. I'm just pointing out that the Kaldorei are not outclassed even taking into account the tech available on both sides at present.

Furthermore, it's not like they are fighting massed ranks of Orcish musketeers. The bulk of the Horde military consists of melee fighters. They are plenty vulnerable to existing NE weapon systems. Never mind magic.

I'm even of the view that in terms of quality the NE retain the edge even now. But quantity is all on the Horde side.

The Forsaken have the same problem with regards to the Alliance, for whatever that is worth. Left to themselves, the Alliance Eastern Kingdoms would slowly grind them. Not due to incompetence or tech but just sheer numbers.

The balance of power is such that neither the Horde nor the Alliance can fully concentrate their forces on the continents they dominate and can therefore maintain significant holdings on the other continent.
Edited by Deerde on 11/18/2012 1:32 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10955
Once again, the basic problem for the NE is sheer numbers. They face the bulk of the Horde in Kalimdor, with little immediate help outside the Draenei, who are themselves not very numerous (but are highly advanced themselves, at least in terms of magic.)


I see that my argument fell completely on deaf ears about this, so I'll try to go for something more direct.

The Orcish population, the entirety of it sans anyone who was born after the Third War, who should be a child, is derived from an expedition consisting of stolen human ships that crashed onto Kalimdor.

For a few reference points, Jaina did the same thing and evidently didn't get the same number of people over, and neither did her father. In Warcraft, the one and only example that people cite of ships dumping a population worth of people in one place in one shot is this one, and it makes no sense.

Hence, my Orcish rover comment... or did they take half the fleet that was just sitting around that day? I'm doubtful!

On the other side of that, the Night Elves had relative peace for tens of thousands of years, and you're trying to tell me that they had a small population simply because it was spread out? The Trolls weren't that great in number either, so where is the Horde picking up the population edge in the west? From the Tauren? What about the Draenei and the Worgen?
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