[Possible Spoilers]: Kaldorei's future.

100 Human Warlock
13855
11/18/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Omacron
Believe it or not, military strategy hasn't innovated in a very long time.

Grant would have loved to order a drone strike on Richmond.

Now, you could argue that the Night Elves haven't had "adapt" but again, that's a horrible excuse.

In ten thousand years the night elves never got the idea for !@#$ing gunpowder. Let that sink in for a bit. Ten. Thousand. Years. Bearing in mind that in those ten thousand years they had outlawed arcane magic and had most of their druids asleep, so the entirety of long ranged combat was done with bows.

Night Elves ALWAYS had the same troop set ups as Orcs and Humans. The Archer thing? Yeah, it wasn't all they had. Again, as I said on SoL, a Huntress-Sentinel set up was one of the strongest in the game. And, if you look at the Huntress, they were plate wearing, shield bearing, melee badasses.

Orcs have innovated heavily in the past 30 years. Humans, we don't know how they waged war prior to the first War, unfortunately, but even in WCII we saw them innovating in unique ways like the creation of paladins. Every major change in night elf military capacity has come from outside their culture- Cenarius had to teach them to be druids, the exiled Shen'dralar had to reintroduce arcane magic, the Alliance had to teach them about firearms.

Then how'd they learn to fight in a desert during the War of the Shifting Sands?

The dragons did the heavy lifting in that war, if I recall.


Considering how the dwarves are credited with developing gunpowder that bit is just nitpicking since no other race had developed it, even the trolls or Tauren who've been around even longer.

As I recall, the Night Elves under Fandral were so frustrating an army that relied on sheer numbers that they had to resort to killing his son to demoralise the night Elf army. Only AFTER the silithid tried attacking CoT (one of those lore hiccups, since one line said they couldn't pass Un'Goro Crater yet they somehow got to CoT) did the Bronze dragons agree to fight and get the other flights involved.

Fact of the matter is that Ferlion is right. In WC3 and in WoW lore itself the Night Elves were hardasses up until they joined the Alliance, which for some reason pussified them. Maybe the sudden appearance of large numbers of males in a society run by females had something to do with it (take that anyway you like :P), but WoW Night Elves are not the WC3 Night Elves.
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11/18/2012 05:40 AMPosted by Kyalin
Once again, the basic problem for the NE is sheer numbers. They face the bulk of the Horde in Kalimdor, with little immediate help outside the Draenei, who are themselves not very numerous (but are highly advanced themselves, at least in terms of magic.)


I see that my argument fell completely on deaf ears about this, so I'll try to go for something more direct.

The Orcish population, the entirety of it sans anyone who was born after the Third War, who should be a child, is derived from an expedition consisting of stolen human ships that crashed onto Kalimdor.

For a few reference points, Jaina did the same thing and evidently didn't get the same number of people over, and neither did her father. In Warcraft, the one and only example that people cite of ships dumping a population worth of people in one place in one shot is this one, and it makes no sense.

Hence, my Orcish rover comment... or did they take half the fleet that was just sitting around that day? I'm doubtful!

On the other side of that, the Night Elves had relative peace for tens of thousands of years, and you're trying to tell me that they had a small population simply because it was spread out? The Trolls weren't that great in number either, so where is the Horde picking up the population edge in the west? From the Tauren? What about the Draenei and the Worgen?


It's not just an Orcish population anymore. The Horde on Kalimdor consists of a good deal more than that. And yes, I really do believe that all put together they outnumber the NE. NE just are not that prolific. I'm willing to bet the NE population has remained fairly steady for most of that 10,000 years. (After a post Sundering baby boom.) NE also are more concerned with maintaining a balance between their numbers and available resources. So far as the Horde goes, this is only true of the Tauren, I don't see it being the case for the Orcs, Trolls and especially the Goblins.

If you add the Draenei and Worgen to the NE, it's much closer, yeah. But I don't think the Draenei are actively supporting the NE in their border disputes. The Worgen tip the scale more probably. Not sure how much cooperation goes on between them and the Sentinels.
Edited by Deerde on 11/18/2012 8:15 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
they've taken so much of a beating already, why should they continue to be brought down.


Compared to who? Point me to any of the Alliance race and I can tell you just how much they also suffered. Really WoW is a story of heroes/people suffering and managing to get back up. Heck Stormwind was destroyed in Warcraft 1! Gnomeragan was lost in Warcraft 3. The Cataclysm hasn't exactly been kind to the dwarves. etc etc

They will be fine.
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
16325
If we didn't bring anything to the Alliance, Admiral Taylor wouldn't have sent his distress signal through a magic night-elf hologram-bowl.
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
16325


Fact of the matter is that Ferlion is right. In WC3 and in WoW lore itself the Night Elves were hardasses up until they joined the Alliance, which for some reason pussified them. Maybe the sudden appearance of large numbers of males in a society run by females had something to do with it (take that anyway you like :P), but WoW Night Elves are not the WC3 Night Elves.


It's not just Night Elves. Between WCIII and WoW, something really... changed in the way Blizzard write their female characters, period.

They seem to be changing it again, though. The women of StarCraft and Warcraft are more or less collectively moving out of the doormat/prop/thing-to-rescue phase, and into a "I AM SO MAD I'M GONNA KILL EVERYONE" phase.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
11/18/2012 08:02 AMPosted by Sylassanna
If we didn't bring anything to the Alliance, Admiral Taylor wouldn't have sent his distress signal through a magic night-elf hologram-bowl.


That was pretty cool.
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85 Pandaren Rogue
8805

It's not just an Orcish population anymore. The Horde on Kalimdor consists of a good deal more than that. And yes, I really do believe that all put together they outnumber the NE. NE just are not that prolific. I'm willing to bet the NE population has remained fairly steady for most of that 10,000 years. (After a post Sundering baby boom.) NE also are more concerned with maintaining a balance between their numbers and available resources. So far as the Horde goes, this is only true of the Tauren, I don't see it being the case for the Orcs, Trolls and especially the Goblins.

If you add the Draenei and Worgen to the NE, it's much closer, yeah. But I don't think the Draenei are actively supporting the NE in their border disputes. The Worgen tip the scale more probably. Not sure how much cooperation goes on between them and the Sentinels.


The thing with the night elve's population is not just because of the balance thing, but because of their long lives "immortality". When you have a race that can effectively live forever then there is no need to procreate like rabbits. You can have one or two kids and that's all you will need considering how long you live. The draenei would be put into a similar boat due to a mixture of long lives and cyro.

The orcs and humans, due to their much shorter life spans, would need to procreate like rabbits in order to expand their numbers while the night elves just sit back and focus on other things. Tyrande and Malfurion have been together for over 10,000 years give or take and yet never had a single child, even when Malfurion was out of the Emerald Dream and Tyrande ended up having to adopt a child because night elves just don't view procreation as a must thing to do.

Now that they are looking at their mortality we should start seeing them reproducing like rabbits, but for a society that doesn't like change, it's going to be hard.

As for the draenei/worgen populations and their role in night elf society and such, the draenei have a much smaller population and as we have seen in game have been largely sitting on the sidelines and only see in the fight in STM and evidently in 5.1 as part of the offensive. The worgen are still sorting themselves out and we don't have a clue how much of the Gilnean population became worgen and even if worgen can reproduce normally. Besides, the worgen have shown that they are far more interested in protecting the forests then working alongside the night elves/Alliance.

We did see the Sentinels training the female worgen in Feralas, so there was at least some cooperation there, but beyond that the worgen are too busy running in the woods to care much about what the night elves are doing, unless both of their goals run together.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9275
11/18/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Gávinn
Shes a naruu blizzard basically confirmed it...shes not a deity though i am sorry to hear that.


HEY! Dems Fightin words ovar here! *Cocks Shotgun*
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100 Human Warrior
16245
Also a lot of Night elves are in the Cenarion Circle. The CC is overwhelmingly dominated by Night elves, so there goes a lot of their population number. Apparently a lot of Sentinels went to help deep south Kalimdor, so a lot of the NE population is in Feralas with Shandris.

Then there was the Cataclysm that destroyed Auberdine, more deaths, more Sentinels taken from any defense effort.

That being said there were some glaring inconsistencies that made this a lot messier than it needed to be. Add that to what I've been hearing from Wolfheart, which I think should just be made noncanon. From what I've heard of it, it takes a massive dump all over Night elves to make the Horde and Varian look cool.

Blizzard if you're reading this, please stop getting Knaak to write night elves. Just stop. Just. Stop.
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100 Human Warrior
16245
11/18/2012 07:27 AMPosted by Gávinn
Shes a naruu blizzard basically confirmed it...shes not a deity though i am sorry to hear that.


She isn't.

Velen said, "Hey Elune is very similar to a Naaru. If you want, I could teach you how to commune with a Naaru." And they said nty.

Elune being a Naaru has not been confirmed, and would be a major asspull. She seems more like a Titan.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Also a lot of Night elves are in the Cenarion Circle. The CC is overwhelmingly dominated by Night elves, so there goes a lot of their population number. Apparently a lot of Sentinels went to help deep south Kalimdor, so a lot of the NE population is in Feralas with Shandris.

Then there was the Cataclysm that destroyed Auberdine, more deaths, more Sentinels taken from any defense effort.

That being said there were some glaring inconsistencies that made this a lot messier than it needed to be. Add that to what I've been hearing from Wolfheart, which I think should just be made noncanon. From what I've heard of it, it takes a massive dump all over Night elves to make the Horde and Varian look cool.

Blizzard if you're reading this, please stop getting Knaak to write night elves. Just stop. Just. Stop.


He isn't. Last I checked he's doing more of what he was good at(The Aspects and all that).
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9275
11/18/2012 11:55 AMPosted by Mordstreich
Elune being a Naaru has not been confirmed, and would be a major asspull. She seems more like a Titan.


would be better if she was just a goddess.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
11/18/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Lynara
Elune being a Naaru has not been confirmed, and would be a major asspull. She seems more like a Titan.


would be better if she was just a goddess.


This. Even I would be disappointed.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
0
Shes a naruu blizzard basically confirmed it...shes not a deity though i am sorry to hear that.

She isn't.

Velen said, "Hey Elune is very similar to a Naaru. If you want, I could teach you how to commune with a Naaru." And they said nty.

Elune being a Naaru has not been confirmed, and would be a major asspull. She seems more like a Titan.


No it wasn't officially confirmed but Blizzard went on to say in ask CDev 3 " Velen has been a prophet of the naaru for many thousands of years, and it’s unlikely that he would propose such a theory without significant evidence and consideration." So unless you want an official proclamation of Blizzard going "ya she is a naaru, Velen was right" that is as close as your going to get to confirmation.

11/18/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Lorthuron
would be better if she was just a goddess.


Ya please don't make her a titan. And that means not making a naaru/titan who was altered somehow. Just make her unique to the night elves. You don't necessarily need to say how or why she's there, just that she is. I think it was Tolkien who said something along the lines of "somethings you aren't supposed to know, even for the creator".
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
11/18/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Mordstreich
Add that to what I've been hearing from Wolfheart, which I think should just be made noncanon. From what I've heard of it, it takes a massive dump all over Night elves to make the Horde and Varian look coo


I'm not sure why people keep saying this when up until Garrosh gets his Deus Ex Machina the Kal'dorei are crushing the Horde by themselves. Then even with the superweapons pulled out of thin air the night elves immediately go back to annihilating the Horde forces when a modicum of Alliance reinforcements arrive.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12065
Everyone here is arguing from a flawed premise.

That there is a shred of consistency to be found. Powdered snow holds together better.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Do tell Arkturas...please enlighten us.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
11/18/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Aureus
Add that to what I've been hearing from Wolfheart, which I think should just be made noncanon. From what I've heard of it, it takes a massive dump all over Night elves to make the Horde and Varian look coo


I'm not sure why people keep saying this when up until Garrosh gets his Deus Ex Machina the Kal'dorei are crushing the Horde by themselves. Then even with the superweapons pulled out of thin air the night elves immediately go back to annihilating the Horde forces when a modicum of Alliance reinforcements arrive.


Wolfheart wasn't all that bad for the Night Elves, other than Garrosh being all knowing. Which sucks.
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100 Human Warrior
16245
I'm not sure why people keep saying this when up until Garrosh gets his Deus Ex Machina the Kal'dorei are crushing the Horde by themselves. Then even with the superweapons pulled out of thin air the night elves immediately go back to annihilating the Horde forces when a modicum of Alliance reinforcements arrive.


I dunno, I've never read Wolfheart. As I've said, from what I've heard about it, It's stuff like:

11/17/2012 10:59 PMPosted by Kyalin
and seem to have this strange attraction to walking around in perfectly exposed positions, regardless of whether they have cover or not. We've also learned that they like to sit in fortifications while their enemies use stealth and guile to navigate the forests.


And I've never heard about any crushing they've done to Horde forces by themselves, but perhaps it's selective memory on the part of those who have read it.
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