Atonement

90 Tauren Priest
12130

cast time or (the time it takes for the heal to reach its full potential).


Those are two very different things.

So I'm not saying never use it, but that it's not worth keeping on cooldown during periods of heavy raid damage.


This is wrong for aforementioned reasons.
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90 Human Priest
11345
11/19/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Siegheal
PoM is incredible, advising against it's use is a poor recommendation.


Late to the thread, but this is the correct answer. Prayer of mending is still one of the most powerful priest healing spells for both hps and hpm.

Also, HPS is total healing divided by cast time. Tick size or interval is irrelevant. A hypothetical situation:

Spell A: Cast time 10 seconds, heals for 10k per second for 10 ticks (100k healing total).

Spell B: Cast time 2 seconds, heals for 5k per second for 10 ticks (50k healing total).

Spell A costs twice as much as Spell B (so they have the same hpm). Which spell should you use? Obviously, the answer is Spell B in everything other than extremely rare circumstances where you stand around for 10 seconds prepping for single target damage and have nothing better to do because you can cast 5 of Spell B in the time it takes you to cast one of Spell A, resulting in 250k total healing as opposed to 100k for the same 10 seconds of casting time.

Prayer of mending vs PoH is the same way. Once you've cast the initial PoM, you don't have to recast it so you get all the healing as a result of your initial gcd investment. In my current (mastery stacking) gear, a fully used Prayer of Mending is actually higher hps than a 5 target spirit shelled PoH.

TLDR: USE PRAYER OF MENDING.
Edited by Amabella on 11/21/2012 12:51 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
I admit I was doing the HPS for PoM incorrectly. That said...

Here are my self-buffed (Fort + Fire) numbers, working off hotfix-corrected tooltips:

Mastery = 31.37%

PoM Cast = 1.4 sec
PoH Cast = 2.34 sec

PoM Cost = 10,500
PoH Cost = 13,500

PoM Healing = 23344 per person = 140062 total possible
PoH Healing = 45454 (heal + absorb) per person = 227270 total possible

PoM HPM = 13.34
PoH HPM = 16.85

PoM HPS = 100,044
PoH HPS = 97,124

My numbers when I go full Mastery:

Mastery = 42.98%

PoM Cast = 1.45
PoH Cast = 2.42

PoM Healing = 23344 per person = 140062 total possible
PoH Healing = 47047 (heal + absorb) per person = 235235 total possible

PoM HPM = 13.34
PoH HPM = 17.43

PoM HPS = 96,595
PoH HPS = 97,204

If I look at Spirit Shell:

Spirit Shell Healing = 54736 per person = 273680 total possible

Spirit Shell HPM = 20.27
Spirit Shell HPS = 113,091

What if I go full Haste?

Mastery = 31.37%

PoM Cast = 1.36
PoH Cast = 2.27

PoM Healing = 23344 per person, 140062 total possible
PoH Healing = 45454 (heal + absorb) per person, 227270 total possible
SS Healing = 50469 per person, 252345 total possible

PoM HPM = 13.34
PoH HPM = 16.85
SS HPM = 18.69

PoM HPS = 102,987
PoH HPS = 100,119
SS HPS = 111,165

Over 1 minute, assuming the spell is used on cooldown and to full effect:

PoM = 6 casts possible; 840,372 healing possible
PoH = 26 casts possible; 5, 909, 020 healing possible
Spirit Shell = 6 casts possible; 1,514,070 healing possible

PoM + PoH = 6 casts (8.16 seconds spent), 22 PoH casts; 5, 840, 312 healing possible

SS + PoH = 6 SS casts; 20 PoH casts; 6, 059, 470 healing possible

SS + PoH + PoM = 6 PoM, 6 SS, 16 PoH casts; 5, 990, 762 healing possible

What if I used the numbers from my Mastery heavy build?

PoM = 6 casts (8.7 seconds spent); 840, 372 healing possible
PoH = 24 casts possible; 5, 645, 640 healing possible
SS = 6 casts (14.52 seconds spent); 1, 642, 080 healing possible

PoM + PoH = 6 PoM, 21 PoH = 5, 780, 307

SS + PoH = 6 SS casts, 18 PoH; 5, 876, 310

PoM + SS + PoH = 6 PoM, 6 SS, 15 PoH = 6, 010, 977

(If I tweak numbers just slightly to get the 25th PoH cast, I get more out of SS + PoH than PoM + SS + PoH because I would gain an additional PoH cast for the former but not the latter.)

Things to Consider

PoM is a smart heal
PoM may overheal or stall out on a person
PoM may take more than 10 seconds to heal 6 times

PoH is not a smart heal, but provides an even distribution of healing
PoH may overheal, including wasted DA

Haste mechanics will affect the HPS of both PoM and PoH/SS; however, because PoM has a cooldown, you won't be getting any more healing out of the spell regardless of your Haste.

Mastery also won't affect PoM unless it crits. In contrast, again, Mastery will increase your PoH's HPM and HPS.

Unless you're stacking Crit, PoH/SS will scale much better than PoM, and the gap in HPM and HPS will continue to grow.

More plainly, because your secondary stats affect PoH/SS more than PoM, the former grows more and more desirable and the latter less and less.

What it comes down to for me is what I find more worthwhile to cast during heavy healing, and the answer is Prayer of Healing and Spirit Shell. I will cast Prayer of Mending before damage goes out, when I have to move, or during a lull in damage when I can use neither PoH nor Spirit Shell to good effect.

So, what I am and have been saying is this:

PoM is weaker than it should be. Use it, but not on cooldown, unless it will be fully used and more helpful than casting SS or continuing to cast PoH.
Edited by Elethia on 11/22/2012 2:25 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
You ignored crits and raid buffs, both of which favor PoM.

Taking your currently equipped gear (I assume this is your haste gearset as the numbers match up) and keeping the assumption of inner fire only, let's add in crits:

PoM noncrit = 23345
PoM crit + aegis = 23345*2(1+0.5(1.3137))*1.03 = 79679
PoM average = (1-crit%)*23345+(crit%*79679) = 27694

PoH noncrit = 45455
PoH crit = 45455*2*1.03 = 93637
PoH average = 49175

Total PoM average = 27694*6 = 166164

Total PoH average = 49175*5 = 245875

PoM hps = 166164/(1.5/1.1006) = 121920

PoH hps = 245874/(2.5/1.1006) = 108244

Your PoH spirit shell value = 111165

Also, you can use PoM while borrowed time is up so you haste it for "free" as you get an additional hasted spell afterwards. PW:S -> PoM -> PoH hastes both the PoM and the PoH, PW:S -> PoH -> PoH hastes only the first PoH. If you do this, PoM absolutely destroys unhasted PoH - the difference between the two casting sequences - for hps.

(PoM with borrowed time up in your current gearset = 166164/(1.5/(1.1006*1.15)) = 140208 hps.)

I showed those calculations so it didn't look like I was just pulling them out of nowhere (ok a spreadsheet) but if you're curious, in your gear with full raid buffs (int flask and food) assuming no overheal and full absorb use:

PoM 152105 hps, 18.05 hpm

5 target PoH 131807 hps, 21.12 hpm

5 target spirit shell PoH 142417 hps, 22.82 hpm

The assumption of zero overheal actually favors PoH, so PoM should be even better than it looks by those numbers as it is less likely to overheal than PoH is. Also, keeping PoM bouncing greatly decreases the need to use non-penance single target heals (all of which suck horribly).
Edited by Amabella on 11/22/2012 3:43 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
7565
PoM benefits from haste besides the reduced global?
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90 Human Priest
11345
11/22/2012 04:52 AMPosted by Restorata
PoM benefits from haste besides the reduced global?


No, but the reduced global is what matters when you are calculating hps.
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90 Tauren Priest
12130
11/22/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Amabella
PoM benefits from haste besides the reduced global?


No, but the reduced global is what matters when you are calculating hps.


If you include the cooldown into the spell's HPS, you would never cast things like tranquility, prayer of healing, or even penance/circle of healing for that matter.
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90 Human Priest
11345
11/22/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Siegheal
If you include the cooldown into the spell's HPS, you would never cast things like tranquility, prayer of healing, or even penance/circle of healing for that matter.


Not sure why PoH is on your list, but anyways I don't think anyone is suggesting including the cooldown in the hps calculation?
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
11/22/2012 03:42 AMPosted by Amabella
You ignored crits and raid buffs, both of which favor PoM.


No I didn't.

Haste mechanics don't directly affect PoM; they'll affect how quickly you can cast the next spell. In contrast, Haste will affect your PoH healing by increasing its HPS.

Mastery also won't affect PoM unless it crits. In contrast, again, Mastery will increase your PoH's HPM and HPS.

Unless you're stacking Crit, PoH/SS will scale much better than PoM, and the gap in HPM and HPS will continue to grow.


PoH and Spirit Shell get more out of secondary stats than PoM does. I like PoM. I want to use it more, but I'm really not finding it worth casting heavily.

I actually want Blizzard to bring the DA buff down a bit, and add PoM to the auto-DA list. I'd also love to see Haste actually directly affect PoM.
Edited by Elethia on 11/22/2012 2:14 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
11/22/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Elethia
No I didn't.


11/21/2012 03:30 PMPosted by Elethia
Here are my self-buffed (Fort + Fire) numbers


???

PoH and Spirit Shell scale far, far better than PoM will. I like PoM. I want to use it more, but I'm really not finding it worth casting heavily.


They scale better with mastery. PoM scales better with everything else except for haste, which scales equally for both. Full raid buffs increase the hps of PoM more than they increase the hps of PoH / Spirit Shell.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Also you definitely calculated PoM and PoH based off their non crit values.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
So are you honestly advocating that a person use PoM on cooldown? And do you honestly think I've every once said "don't use PoM at all"?

Regardless of HPS, you're going to get more healing out of PoH/SS than PoM with more Haste.

You're going to get more healing out of PoH/SS than PoM with more Mastery.

Crit is unreliable, unless it's baked into the equation as it is with Spirit Shell. I've seen wild disparities between PoM and PoH crit amounts.

According to Nysem's math, PoM's spellpower coefficient for individual hits is 71.4% and PoH is 94.5%. Multiply by 6 and 5 respectively, and PoH ends up having the higher by "approximately 45% (additively)".

Then you consider that you're getting more Mastery (12.5%) from raid buffs than either Crit (5%) or Haste (5%).

Then you have to think about effects like Inner Focus. Does your spread sheet take that into account? What about AA?
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90 Undead Priest
8030
Some people need to relax and theory craft methods of increasing their fun intake (and fiber?).

If you hear something along the lines of "Generally, spell X wins vs. spell Y"
Well, what does "general" really mean anymore?

To player A, generally might refer to: spirit(soft cap) > mas > spirit > crit > haste, and a raid group that thrives with a lot of mitigation during heavy damage phases, etc...

To player B, generally might refer to: spirit > haste > crit > mas, and a raid group that thrives by slapping as much dps on the boss as is possible to shorten high damage phases, and even the entire encounter, etc... (no way! zomg! noob! epeen! epeen! newb! epeen!)

To player C, generally might refer to players A and B "generally" being stupid as @#$%... They haven't even pushed any hard modes yet ffs!
Player C understands that it's "generally" his/her responsibility to explain to those with smaller epeens why they are so *ahem* "unendowed".
After all, player C's raid group thrives with the way player C does things! Therefore, player C knows what's best for players A and B, as well their raid groups! (an entire guild worth of epeens to dominate! Gadzooks!).
Forget the fact that Players A & B are having fun! They doin' it wrong! (Game?! Whaaa?!)
Besides, generally, player C gets his/her fun from "explaining" why other players are so dumb, and using condescending terms earns bonus points (epeeeeen!)! (Also, stoking the fires of his/her raging epeen can't hurt! :D )


... Don't be player C, nobody likes player C; not even player C likes player C.

Yay! That was fun to type! A good day to all!

... EPEEN!
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90 Human Priest
11345
11/22/2012 03:44 PMPosted by Elethia
So are you honestly advocating that a person use PoM on cooldown? And do you honestly think I've every once said "don't use PoM at all"?


Not always on cooldown - you should use PoM once your previous PoM has used up all of its charges. Refreshing PoM while there are still charges left is not usually a good idea, although you might do it in preparation for raid damage. When possible you should try to use PoM while borrowed time is active.

I recognize you never said "never use PoM" - I don't think that's the argument at all. I strongly disagree with your statement that it is not a good heal to use during heavy raid damage.

Regardless of HPS, you're going to get more healing out of PoH/SS than PoM with more Haste.


At base, PoM costs you 1.5 seconds to cast, PoH costs you 2.5. No matter how much haste you have (unless you manage to run into the gcd hard cap at 1.0 seconds), the ratio of cast time of PoM to cast time of PoH or 3:5, 0.6, or however you want to put it will remain constant.

For example: Let's say you have 20% haste.

Cast time of PoM (and your gcd) is now 1.5/(1+0.2) = 1.25
Cast time of PoH is now 2.5/(1+0.2) = 2.0833333...

1.25 / 2.0833333 = 0.6

PoM and PoH scale equally with haste. This is true in the general case as well - the presence of a haste buff does not change the relative strength of two spells; the exception being abilities that gain an additional tick when passing a haste breakpoint or having sufficient haste to push the gcd to 1.0 causing one spell to start "wasting" additional haste.

You're going to get more healing out of PoH/SS than PoM with more Mastery.


If I was to gain 30000 mastery rating (not a typo, I really do mean thirty thousand), 5 target PoH would almost catch up to PoM's hps. I think I'm safe for now. Spirit shell, of course, catches up much faster (breakeven is gaining a little over 3000 mastery). These numbers both assume I gained zero crit rating. I often do not refresh PoM until I have finished spamming spirit shell PoH's to preshield the raid (there isn't likely to be enough damage going out to make PoM bounce anyways) as I want to get in the maximum number of shelled PoH's.

Crit is unreliable, unless it's baked into the equation as it is with Spirit Shell. I've seen wild disparities between PoM and PoH crit amounts.


We're not talking about gemming or reforging crit here, just the unavoidable presence of crit from intellect, raid buffs, and whatever you happen to have on your gear. Also, crit mendings are less likely to overheal than crit PoH's because PoM is likely to be on a low health target.

I should probably have said in my last post that the non-crit scaling of PoM and PoH with respect to intellect is the same, as it is the influence of crits that causes PoM to pull ahead as more intellect is added and not some inherent value of the added int itself. This is relevant to the next section.

According to Nysem's math, PoM's spellpower coefficient for individual hits is 71.4% and PoH is 94.5%. Multiply by 6 and 5 respectively, and PoH ends up having the higher by "approximately 45% (additively)".


This is not how spellpower scaling works.

Pretend you have zero spellpower, no secondaries, and no buffs at all.

Your PoM would heal for 5919*1.25*6 = 44394 and your PoH would heal for 6957*1.25*1.6*5 = 69570.

44394 / 69570 = ~0.638

Alternately, PoM's hps is 44394/1.5 = 29596.
PoH's hps is 69570/2.5 = 27828.
29596 / 27828 = ~1.064.

Now with 10000 spellpower (same other conditions).

PoM now heals for (5919+0.571*10000)*1.25*6 = 87217.5.
PoH now heals for (6957+0.671*10000)*1.25*1.6*5 = 136670

87217.5 / 136670 = ~0.638

PoM's hps is now 87217.5/1.5 = 58145.
PoH's hps is now 136670/2.5 = 54668.
58145 / 54668 = ~1.064.

The ratio between non-crit PoM and PoH does not change as you add spellpower. They scale at the same rate.

You can repeat the calculation for any amount of mastery and show that mastery does not affect this scaling - it will however cause PoH to be closer to PoM (regardless of spellpower) and even pass it with sufficient mastery rating. Once you add in crit though, PoH once again falls behind.

Then you consider that you're getting more Mastery (12.5%) from raid buffs than either Crit (5%) or Haste (5%).


You also get crit from intellect and crit rating. Even if you have no crit rating on your gear you are still going to have about 10% crit raid buffed depending on your intellect. 1% crit is also a much larger gain than 1% mastery. Do your calculations over accounting for 10% crit (or more) and you'll see what I mean.

Then you have to think about effects like Inner Focus. Does your spread sheet take that into account? What about AA?


Inner focus does not affect these calculations in any way. You can still use inner focus on cooldown - your PoM is replacing one of the "other" PoH's you would have cast. More precisely (ignoring borrowed time which skews it in PoM's favor) you are losing 3 PoH casts and gaining 5 PoM casts (3x2.5 seconds = 7.5 seconds of casting time, or 5x1.5 seconds = 7.5 seconds of casting time).

This suggests to me another way to illustrate that PoM is better hps than PoH. Take your total average healing from one PoM cast (everything included, raid buffs, crits, all secondaries etc) and multiply it by 5. Take your total average healing for one PoH cast and multiply it by 3. That's the tradeoff (again assuming you never BT haste PoM which isn't a very good practical assumption since you should definitely be trying to do this but it makes things simpler).

Archangel affects both abilities equally so does not affect their relative hps.

@ guy above me: It is possible for people to post about theorycraft without hating each other, the game, themselves, and everything else. The priest forum is generally a pretty friendly place.
Edited by Amabella on 11/23/2012 12:30 AM PST
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90 Tauren Priest
12130
TL;DR:

PoM is great if you're expecting pulsing raid damage, but don't cancel a half complete prayer of healing if PoM comes off cooldown.
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Can PoM actually bounce when the damage a player would of taken is fully absorbed?
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90 Human Priest
11345
11/23/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Shilia
Can PoM actually bounce when the damage a player would of taken is fully absorbed?


Fully absorbed damage does not trigger a PoM bounce.
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So that kind of makes mastery from PoH/SS weaken PoM since potentially delays bounces. It'd still have the same maximum hps, if you wait for all the charges, but time taken for the healing to be done is longer.

It doesn't seem like PoM is that good for light or heavy pulsing raid damage to me. It needs to be hard enough to break absorbs and not overheal, while also not be too hard since then PoH would generally provide healing faster.
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90 Human Priest
11345
So you cast more PoH's while your PoM is still active and bouncing around. You should still put up a new PoM when the old one finishes its 6 bounces - it's better to go PoM -> PoH until all charges expire -> apply new PoM than it is to just spam PoH during pulsing raid damage, but the gap will be smaller as you are trading less PoH's for PoM's if there is longer between each bounce. The exception to this would be if raid damage is so low that you can absorb all of it and cause PoM to go 30 seconds without bouncing and fall off.

If you are overwriting a PoM that still has bounces remaining (for example just using it mindlessly every 10 seconds) then yes, absorbs will significantly weaken PoM. This is not a very good way to use PoM though.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7300
You say that that sp scaling on poh is 67.1%. According to the tooltip it should heal me for 22157, however when i test it the heal is 27715. Bliz has buffed poh recently. Now that with the 10300 mastery I have raid buffed (62% ish) poh should be quite a bit more than pom.

Im seeing that raid buffed poh would be 30k heal with a 24.5k absorb (54.5k)

Raid buffed i have about 25,500 sp with 15% crit,62.9% mastery, 7% haste.

These are the numbers i get, if you see anything wrong let me know.

Poh
54.5 x 1.15(crit) x 5 = 313.375k
313.375 / 2.33 = 134k hps
313.375 / 13.5 =23.21 hpm

Pom
20.5k x 1.15(crit) x 6= 141k
141 / 1.4 = 100k hps
141 / 10.5 = 13.4 hpm

The conclusion that i get from this is poh is better to use if you are reacting. Pom is very viable if you proactive.

I am a very big fan of attonement. I like to use it quite a bit, being able to contribute 12-15k dps is pretty valuable on progression, plus it gives you another very strong cd that works with Spirit shell. Is pure smite viable in a raid, maybe for farm, but for progression and hm raiding i would say a definite no. It is filler and with the upcoming range increase it will fill that role perfectly.
Edited by Silencieux on 11/23/2012 9:49 PM PST
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