Resto needs help the logs don't lie.

90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
To be fair, he used HOTW on Vizier (12.5 percent of the fight), which could account for harmony falling of for a very long period. So that is not surprising.

On Bladelord, there can be a bit of down-time in tornadoes and running down the hall. You would be surprised how quickly your % will drop on fights with down-time.

And crushes on Garalon can throw of your timing as well. Just under 90% is not the end of the world. He did have 99.3% on LB there...

As for spell selection, i can't disagree there, WG needs to be our focus right now. Perfecting its usage is key, especially on a fight like garalon.

Anyway, just cutting him some slack, I think over-analyzing logs can be bad without context. He could have been on a specific assignment etc.. And is this what we have come to, attacking others logs?

You already have said you see issues with druids in 25-man, so what are you really adding by attacking his logs?

Yeah there are times in these fights where harmony can fall, hence why I wanted to check mine out just to see what kind of timeframe we're working with but I wasn't able to.

It's not even an "over-analyzation" of logs... I just looked quickly and found that his WG healing done was extremely low, he didn't make full use of Innervates, he did not use tranq, incarnation, or harmony to their fullest, yet comes into the thread preaching one thing based off his speculation of playing the class/spec. And you think it's an "attack" to see if what they're doing, what they're speculating on, is the right way?

Well, excuse me, but if someone comes into a thread telling others the things that he's said, I'm going to do the smart thing and check out how things are working for that person. If their way is actually the right way. There's nothing wrong about that. And what I found was a pretty glaring issue.

Let's not get into a "why are you attacking his logs" fight, you should be able to know why they're being looked at in the first place.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
11/26/2012 09:12 AMPosted by Fleurs
Well, excuse me, but if someone comes into a thread telling others the things that he's said, I'm going to do the smart thing and check out how things are working for that person. If their way is actually the right way. There's nothing wrong about that. And what I found was a pretty glaring issue.


This exactly.

If someone is going to argue for 22 pages that their class is broken completely, you would think their logs would show an attempt to use proper spell selection/cooldowns/etc. He isn't even playing near what top Druids are capable of, and the logs show very obvious reasons why.

You can't really believe someone yelling that the sky is falling if they aren't even attempting to play their class properly.
90 Night Elf Druid
15480
11/26/2012 09:17 AMPosted by Qùess
You can't really believe someone yelling that the sky is falling if they aren't even attempting to play their class properly.


Well priests the first two weeks who got overbuffed for their work, so yes you can believe that.

I don't have a dog in this fight but most of the time people are complaining based on top raiding mixed in with their own paly, not just pure personal point of view. I play with an excellent resto druid in 25's and he does very well. But then again most people avoid things so the damage isn't insane where it would cost a great deal of mana to overcome.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
11/26/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Sadiemay
Well priests the first two weeks who got overbuffed for their work, so yes you can believe that.


Except Priests had legitimate concerns. The fact that we were overbuffed is negligible, it will be changed, but we needed some of the buffs, and that's a fact.

Druids are not showing to be in desperate need of buffs. They aren't 50% or more behind other healers like Disc was. There was no possible justification for Disc's output, so it was buffed. Druids are within a 10% spread against other healers (monks aren't people), that's balanced.
Edited by Qùess on 11/26/2012 9:30 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
11950
To be fair, he used HOTW on Vizier (12.5 percent of the fight), which could account for harmony falling of for a very long period. So that is not surprising.

On Bladelord, there can be a bit of down-time in tornadoes and running down the hall. You would be surprised how quickly your % will drop on fights with down-time.

And crushes on Garalon can throw of your timing as well. Just under 90% is not the end of the world. He did have 99.3% on LB there...

As for spell selection, i can't disagree there, WG needs to be our focus right now. Perfecting its usage is key, especially on a fight like garalon.

Anyway, just cutting him some slack, I think over-analyzing logs can be bad without context. He could have been on a specific assignment etc.. And is this what we have come to, attacking others logs?

You already have said you see issues with druids in 25-man, so what are you really adding by attacking his logs?

Yeah there are times in these fights where harmony can fall, hence why I wanted to check mine out just to see what kind of timeframe we're working with but I wasn't able to.

It's not even an "over-analyzation" of logs... I just looked quickly and found that his WG healing done was extremely low, he didn't make full use of Innervates, he did not use tranq, incarnation, or harmony to their fullest, yet comes into the thread preaching one thing based off his speculation of playing the class/spec. And you think it's an "attack" to see if what they're doing, what they're speculating on, is the right way?

Well, excuse me, but if someone comes into a thread telling others the things that he's said, I'm going to do the smart thing and check out how things are working for that person. If their way is actually the right way. There's nothing wrong about that. And what I found was a pretty glaring issue.

Let's not get into a "why are you attacking his logs" fight, you should be able to know why they're being looked at in the first place.


I guess the thread is already there in many ways, be we do not need this thread to be about one person..

All this will do is send it into pages of debate between one person and a bunch of people attacking him.

You have already repeatedly said you agree that druids in 25-man need tweaking, and so does he. Honestly, if you really look at the thread you two essentially agree...

The rest is just a bunch of banter between people that like to argue about anything under the sun.
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/26/2012 9:56 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
15160
Hello. Doubt anyone will read this, but here goes:

    -Druids need burst. Reactive healing is easily overtaken by other classes of players with equal skill. Preemptive healing (a.k.a. pre-hotting) has always been a good bet for HoTs, but now it's a waste of mana as they barely tick once before being rendered useless by other classes' burst. I'm not even counting Spirit Shells.

    -Also need better regen. For fights where hots may actually have a chance to tick full duration (such as Heroic Protectors), we don't have the resources to manage it.

    My guild's Heroic Grand Empress kill took 8 healers: 2 monks, 2 shamans, 2 disc priests, 1 hpally, 1 druid. Our mana gains are as follows, not counting Hymns of Hope & pots:

    15:01 minute fight
    Druid- Innervate x5 = 327,000
    Monk1- Mana Tea x43 = 1,032,000 mana
    Monk2- Mana Tea x34 = 708,000 mana
    Paladin- Divine Plea x6 = 216,000 mana
    Disc1- Rapture x43 = 1,458,420 mana
    Disc2- Rapture x29 = 1,181,914 mana
    Shaman1- Resurgence x71 = 305,018 mana
    Shaman1- Water Shield x64 = 187,392 mana
    Shaman2- Resurgence x66 = 294,993 mana
    Shaman2- Water Shield x63 = 184,464 mana

    Considering the fact that paladins and Monks also use other resources like Holy Power and Chi to heal, the disparity really is too glaring. It's not a "small" problem, especially in Terrace with large and consistent AOE, where our HoTs may actually be better than other classes' spells.

    -Mushrooms are still laughably inefficient. They aren't burst, they're more of a small burp.


*Thanks for pointing out that Telluric Currents regen on shamans is negligible, I was copying straight from the mana gains listed. Removed now.

**I disagree that OOCs skew much since shamans also have a free-heal type of proc (Ancestral Awakening did as much as my Regrowths on this particular log) and, as mentioned, Paladins & Monks have alternative resources.
Edited by Skilly on 11/27/2012 7:43 AM PST
90 Worgen Druid
11950
Hello. Doubt anyone will read this, but here goes:

    -Druids need burst. Reactive healing is easily overtaken by other classes of players with equal skill. Preemptive healing (a.k.a. pre-hotting) has always been a good bet for HoTs, but now it's a waste of mana as they barely tick once before being rendered useless by other classes' burst. I'm not even counting Spirit Shells.

    -Also need better regen. For fights where hots may actually have a chance to tick full duration (such as Heroic Protectors), we don't have the resources to manage it.

    My guild's Heroic Grand Empress kill took 8 healers: 2 monks, 2 shamans, 2 disc priests, 1 hpally, 1 druid. Our mana gains are as follows, not counting Hymns of Hope & pots:

    15:01 minute fight
    Druid- Innervate x5 = 327,000
    Monk1- Mana Tea x43 = 1,032,000 mana
    Monk2- Mana Tea x34 = 708,000 mana
    Paladin- Divine Plea x6 = 216,000 mana
    Disc1- Rapture x43 = 1,458,420 mana
    Disc2- Rapture x29 = 1,181,914 mana
    Shaman1- Telluric Currents x63 = 384,300 mana
    Shaman1- Resurgence x71 = 305,018 mana
    Shaman1- Water Shield x64 = 187,392 mana
    Shaman2- Telluric Currents x44 = 264,000 mana
    Shaman2- Resurgence x66 = 294,993 mana
    Shaman2- Water Shield x63 = 184,464 mana

    Considering the fact that paladins and Monks also use other resources like Holy Power and Chi to heal, the disparity really is too glaring. It's not a "small" problem, especially in Terrace with large and consistent AOE, where our HoTs may actually be better than other classes' spells.

    -Mushrooms are still laughably inefficient. They aren't burst, they're more of a small burp.


I read it! We need more active HC druids posting. Very few have been contributing.
90 Orc Death Knight
7400
I'm just going to link my argument in the post I made in the resto druid forums. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7199961617
90 Blood Elf Mage
15120
Shaman1- Telluric Currents x63 = 384,300 mana
Shaman1- Resurgence x71 = 305,018 mana
Shaman1- Water Shield x64 = 187,392 mana
Shaman2- Telluric Currents x44 = 264,000 mana
Shaman2- Resurgence x66 = 294,993 mana
Shaman2- Water Shield x63 = 184,464 mana



One nit to pick. I'm not sure your shamans' mana gains from Telluric Currents is important to include in that list, given that mana cost quite a bit to gain.
90 Worgen Druid
15160
Ethrundil, are you a sub?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bhuwyazxe5i6vrox/details/16/?s=1663&e=2036

Harmony uptime for Imperial Vizier, 78.9%. Can't compare with my own logs since they haven't posted them for some reason (just to see how much downtime I had on it when running between platforms)

WG uptime 32.7% with it doing 17.8% of your total healing done.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bhuwyazxe5i6vrox/details/16/?s=2826&e=3317

Harmony uptime for Blade Lord, 80.3%

WG uptime 32% with it doing a whopping 18.3% of your total healing done.

This is my favorite,

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bhuwyazxe5i6vrox/details/16/?s=6044&e=6455

Harmony uptime for Garalon, 88.7%

WG uptime 19%, with it doing a grand total of 12.3% of your total healing done.

Over the course of a 6:50 min fight, you only received 2 Innervates.

Over the course of a 6:50 min fight, you only used Tranquility once.

Over the course of a 6:50 min fight, you only used Incarnation twice.

Now, I know in 25m you don't use Lifebloom very much so to each their own for this tidbit, but you'd have 10x more clearcasting procs if you would just keep a dang stack of LB rolling on a tank. You had a total of 14 for this fight, and the other fights it's the same sort of deal... Your lifebloom healing done is ridiculously low, I don't think even 25m druids let it fall that often, or ignore as much as you do. I could be wrong, but mana is mana and a great portion of our mana savings lies in OOC procs.

Aside from that, my point in posting this information is because you're saying it's the class and not you, so I took a look at your logs. You don't seem to use WG on CD, you aren't really making the best use out of Harmony. When given the chance, you aren't making full use of your CDs in order to stay above water with your mana.

I just find it ironic that I'm looking at the only day I can find in this month that you've raided and I personally think you could be doing a lot better, but you come into this thread telling pretty well-informed people that they are incorrect to believe druids are doing OK.

LOL I don't know why I'm diving in here, just terribly bored so I took a look heh. On the Garalon log it's pretty clear to me that he was on duty for healing Pheromones kiters- I guessed this because my guild gives me the same assignment. It's pretty brutal, you're constantly dodging the cleaves and usually out of range of the rest of the raid, which is probably why he only Tranqed once (even if the raid is in range, kiters can often die during the channel). You can see his Swiftmends and Ironbarks were on kiters and he used a large amount of Regrowths (all on kiters) on a fight where raid healers would stick to HoTs. Also, I don't see how you can fault him for low Clearcasting procs when his LB uptime is above 99%. Similarly, his low WG uptime is likely because of not being in range of the raid group. The only time a kiter died was because he got hit by a swipe, so I'd say according to the WoL, this druid was doing his job. Don't know why you're giving him such a hard time when you can't analyze a WoL correctly; simply seeing the number of Regrowths should have tipped you off that he had a specific assignment.
5 Dwarf Priest
0
11/26/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Sadiemay
Agree with above, personal attacks are not really needed.


Haven't you noticed?

The guild <healerchat> are the worst trolls here.
90 Worgen Druid
11950
11/26/2012 12:36 PMPosted by Skilly
LOL I don't know why I'm diving in here, just terribly bored so I took a look heh. On the Garalon log it's pretty clear to me that he was on duty for healing Pheromones kiters- I guessed this because my guild gives me the same assignment. It's pretty brutal, you're constantly dodging the cleaves and usually out of range of the rest of the raid, which is probably why he only Tranqed once (even if the raid is in range, kiters can often die during the channel). You can see his Swiftmends and Ironbarks were on kiters and he used a large amount of Regrowths (all on kiters) on a fight where raid healers would stick to HoTs. Also, I don't see how you can fault him for low Clearcasting procs when his LB uptime is above 99%. Similarly, his low WG uptime is likely because of not being in range of the raid group. The only time a kiter died was because he got hit by a swipe, so I'd say according to the WoL, this druid was doing his job. Don't know why you're giving him such a hard time when you can't analyze a WoL correctly; simply seeing the number of Regrowths should have tipped you off that he had a specific assignment.


Exactly, hard to make judgements like that based on WoL, special assignments and all kinds of factors can weigh in. Just like I pointed out for Vizier, a really low harmony up-time was just him using HOTW for 45 seconds...

For all you know they were bull!@#$ting around in vent for some of the fights, since they appear to be just farm logs.

That's the point, you just do now know, and/or did not really look that deeply into them in the first place to see what Skilly and I already pointed out. I have also had the fun of Pheromones kiter healing, and it can be a PITA and definitely changes your spell selection.

Also, I always take harmony up-time with a grain of salt. A really good druid can manage beyond just straight log up-time. You only need it when using hots or tranqing.. so for instance on Garalon you can easily get LB and rejuv on the pheromone target, let harmony fall off, move, and then SM/DH to refresh it before refreshing again with hots. Little tricks like that, knowing when to heal and when you do not need to mindlessly refresh harmony can keep you from unnecessarily wasting mana just for the sake of obsessively keeping the buff up. Really, when you start watching it like this, you can find all sorts of times when it can fall off and save you from casting extra direct heals, during any point of low healing, as you generally only will have LB and rejuv rolling on the tank and should not be clipping them anyway. This is often at the start of fights, but will make a straight log % deceptive...
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/26/2012 1:31 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
8670
I still fail to see this as a regen issue, it's more of a mechanics problem to me. I suggested a stronger mushrroms with a longer cooldown, this would make it so you wouldn't have to use so much mana in the first place on rejuv spamming. The spell was introduced to fill a void in druid healing but was nerfed in the wrong place: throughput instead of cd length. Being 10 seconds and 3 gcds would have completely changed our rotation to be entirely based around shrroms. Making it a 30 second cooldown with one gcd placement, one explosion and being much stronger would simply add to our toolkit, not take away from what we already have.

I have no troubles in 10 man with mana, but I have in 25. I also feel a complete lack of tools when dealing with raid wide damage on 25s when tranq and incarnation are down. I think this takes care of all the problems, something to prevent spamming rejuv which takes a lot of mana, a spell to use when major cooldowns are down, and something that scales well for 25 mans.
50 Human Priest
14170
11/26/2012 09:50 AMPosted by Skilly
Shaman1- Telluric Currents x63 = 384,300 mana


TC provides almost no positive mana gain. It ends up being .5% of mana per lightning bolt cast. Its not a regen tool now. There is a blue post stating that if you need proof.

Also, this list leaves out the mana saved from omen of clarity. You list is skewed and can provide no data because of it.
Edited by Niktesla on 11/26/2012 4:25 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
@Fang and Skilly

11/26/2012 09:12 AMPosted by Fleurs
I just looked quickly and found that his WG healing done was extremely low, he didn't make full use of Innervates, he did not use tranq, incarnation, or harmony to their fullest, yet comes into the thread preaching one thing based off his speculation of playing the class/spec. And you think it's an "attack" to see if what they're doing, what they're speculating on, is the right way?


Now, I already said:

11/26/2012 09:12 AMPosted by Fleurs
Yeah there are times in these fights where harmony can fall


So, whatever you guys were saying I've already agreed with. Maybe linking harmony uptime wasn't a good idea on my part when presenting these fights, or taking in the fact that he's hotw spec. But, I do still think it's not something to just toss out the window.

Like I said, I quickly looked through his logs and found some big things on Garalon. Tranq was only used once. Once. And then complains about there being issues with our class? I would look for more information on the guy to see what he's doing and to figure out if he's just goofing off with his guild or w/e, but I didn't want to go fishing through months of information when I really just wanted to take a glance. And this was the only day I found this entire month he raided =\

And the argument you're trying to make about being the kite healer is... Idk, null? I've healed this fight. I am a little surprised that you, Skilly, didn't figure that you could stay in range of both the kiter and the rest of the raid by being in front of where they're going to be kiting. Being ahead of them. That way you're also not getting cleaved.

That is how my guild downed it the first time, two healing, with me healing the kiter. I already know from firsthand experience what it's like to heal that person, but I've figured out a way to heal both raid and kiter, while all of them are near melee to stand in healing rain for our shaman.

Look at my WG healing done compared to his, while healing the kiter:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rm382e6pwn3dgk7w/sum/healingDone/?s=51&e=452

WG uptime, 57.6%

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mua232hmohuvakfp/sum/healingDone/?s=9619&e=9996

WG uptime, 57.5% (damn that's consistent)

I think this is the biggest thing out of everything here when looking at his logs and making a comparison. WG uptime is very, very low and is not being used to its fullest. I'd also say that efflo should be up there as well, now that I'm looking at my logs.

In the end, my wall of text feels so unneeded, because if you guys would see what my initial post was trying to demonstrate here, none of this explaining would be going on. -.-
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
So I am doing a *little* better on the HPS.

Though the work required to do so is more then it's ever been. And mana is still an issue.

I use swiftmend on CD on the group(keeps up harmony near 100%), and wild growth on CD.

If you back off rejuv it helps mana a bit, though it still gets rough in the last bit of the fight. This is the only way to stay anywhere near competitive. While on heals I am 1-2 million behind on healing, I put out all I could lol....

My over healing is ususually between 20-30%, which for a Druid I don't see a problem with this.

The problem with healing this way though, people NEED to pay attention and get in my circles if they want heals, and some RNG as I don't control where wild growth goes. But Wild Growth & Efflo are my top 2 heals.
50 Human Priest
14170
The problem with healing this way though, people NEED to pay attention and get in my circles if they want heals, and some RNG as I don't control where wild growth goes. But Wild Growth & Efflo are my top 2 heals.


Welcome to being a healer. This is what every other healer deals with too and has for at least an expansion.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
11/26/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Halfatree
buff shrooms, derp. up the cd and suddenly you have a spell that scales for 25 man, derp. Regen isn't a problem if you don't have to spam rejuv, derp. Derp derp derp derpity derp derp derp. I give up here.


The problem isn't SPAMMING rejuv. You can barely use it without having mana issues. It takes 2% of my mana per cast lol. A little too much especially if you want it on 3 targets for a faster nourish
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