Resto needs help the logs don't lie.

90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
11/19/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Fleurs
-.- I have this gut feeling that you were benched or something and you're taking it very personally, but let me assure you that it's not because of your class.


I really don't think it's necessary for you to imply that Fangthorn, as a player, is just "bad" to prove your point. What exactly does that accomplish, other than making the player himself feel attacked?

But given that I'm familiar with Temerity, having raided on the same server with them and having encountered their members repeatedly in the past, I'll just say this much: If Fangthorn were "bad," he wouldn't even have a bench seat. He wouldn't have a guild tag. Temerity is a US 32 guild in 25 man, world rank 149. They don't carry bads, Fleurs.

Nor would they be giving him Heroic raid gear if he were "bad."

Fangthorn appears to be - from their own kill logs - the Resto Druid they bring IF they bring a Resto Druid. If they're NOT bringing a Resto Druid to particular fights, you might want to ask yourself why that is.
Edited by Tiriél on 11/19/2012 1:26 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
11/19/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Fangthorn
Lets be honest, you have minimal experience healing as a druid in raids. Don't pretend to be something you are not.


I won't pretend to be the master of all things Resto, but to deny that I have a decent knowledge of the class, or that a lack of such knowledge, if it existed, would affect my ability to analyze statistical data, is sheer idiocy.

You should also not pretend to have the end-all-be-all say-so on druid balance. The fact that you main the class in a world class guild introduces bias in and of itself, and you've made that bias obvious in just about every thread you've posted in.
100 Worgen Druid
12635
Being "OK" (while still dead last) is not acceptable. When you are on a competitive roster (it doesn't have to be top 10) that has a bench, it cuts into your raid time. We generally only being one druid to each fight, but have no qualms bringing two priests, two shamans etc...


Its 100% acceptable. Someone has to be last. If you are "OK", then what's the problem? Stop spreading your idiocy.


Don't stoop to personal attacks or anything. And I clearly stated the problem in the next sentence, but I guess your comprehension is just a bit low.

"someone has to be last", brilliant, just brilliant, lets ignore the variance...

Being "OK" (while still dead last) is not acceptable. When you are on a competitive roster (it doesn't have to be top 10) that has a bench, it cuts into your raid time.


Some class will always be in dead last (hi, I'm a Hunter, perhaps you've heard of us? We used to do DPS) and that class will be less desirable. Even if you buff Druids, some other healer will be in last, and the same problem will exist.

You are completely ignoring spread, being last with a 20% difference is not the same as being last with a 1% difference.

leave the druid fighting for that last spot, and in the end less raid time.


One does not follow the other.

Outside of World guilds where every player is exceptional and it really does come down to class balance... it's quite likely that in your raid your other healers ARE NOT playing perfectly... which creates an opportunity for you to play better and compete for raid time.

If every guild were cutting classes simply because they were the "bottom" - then every 10-man raid roster would be 2 Warriors, 6 Mages, a Disc Priest and a Shaman.


You make many assumptions. My healing roster happens to be very exceptional.

Regardless, why not strive for better balance? Expecting one player to compete for raid time with a handicap seems just a bit unfair.
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/19/2012 1:57 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12635
Overall I find it funny that people seem to not want better balance. Actually arguing for indifference, even though they accept the facts.

Weird, its as if people think balance is a bad thing, or talking about it is "spreading idiocy"...
50 Human Priest
14170
11/19/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Fangthorn
Overall I find it funny that people seem to not want better balance. Actually arguing for indifference, even though they accept the facts.


Balance is fine, it as close as its ever been. Its not reasonable to expect it to be much closer either. The developers hit their target for balance and then some. Maybe you are just not as good as you think you are and that's why you are being benched. Maybe if you were a better player, they would want to take you. In your situation, someone has to be benched since you have eleven people for ten raid spots.
Edited by Niktesla on 11/19/2012 1:45 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12635
11/19/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Anarri
Lets be honest, you have minimal experience healing as a druid in raids. Don't pretend to be something you are not.


I won't pretend to be the master of all things Resto, but to deny that I have a decent knowledge of the class, or that a lack of such knowledge, if it existed, would affect my ability to analyze statistical data, is sheer idiocy.

You should also not pretend to have the end-all-be-all say-so on druid balance. The fact that you main the class in a world class guild introduces bias in and of itself, and you've made that bias obvious in just about every thread you've posted in.


Anarri, it is not idiocy, it is fact.

You have healed almost nothing as a druid beyond a couple normal runs. Nothing in classic, not Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, barely touched ICC, BWD, TOFW, not BoT, FL.

The most experience you have is LFR DS. You literally only touched a couple heroic bosses ever.

"pretend to have the end-all-be-all say-so on druid balance"

That best fits you, I hardly participate in these threads as much as you. Which is why I find it so humorous considering you have barely played the class.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Overall I find it funny that people seem to not want better balance. Actually arguing for indifference, even though they accept the facts.


Balance is fine, it as close as its ever been. Maybe you are just not as good as you think you are and that's why you are being benched. Maybe if you were a better player, they would want to take you.


Perhaps the issue is actually that there are two holes being exposed here. One is the lack of burst coverage (made more glaring by the promise of mushrooms that didn't materialize), and the other is the lack of scaling in 25 man content.

No one should have to feel that their class makes getting heroic content down more difficult for their raid. No one should have to feel that they would have been better off as another class, that their raid (their friends ,the people they have obligations to) would have a better time if they hadn't chosen to stay with the class they loved. I've been there, and it sucks.
Edited by Tiriél on 11/19/2012 1:45 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
12635
Overall I find it funny that people seem to not want better balance. Actually arguing for indifference, even though they accept the facts.


Balance is fine, it as close as its ever been. Its not reasonable to expect it to be much closer either. The developers hit their target for balance and then some. Maybe you are just not as good as you think you are and that's why you are being benched. Maybe if you were a better player, they would want to take you.


I rank top ten regularly. But so do all my other healers. For instance I got #4 on Wind Lord Last night, 50% behind the top classes for the fight.
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/19/2012 1:48 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
4690
Overall I find it funny that people seem to not want better balance. Actually arguing for indifference, even though they accept the facts.

Weird, its as if people think balance is a bad thing, or talking about it is "spreading idiocy"...


It is the implementation that is the topic for debate....not the actual need.

Fleurs is saying reduce the cost of Rejuve, buff shrooms a little; others are saying rework shrooms .... in the end, the differences are not the need department, but in how the improvements are done.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Anarri, it is not idiocy, it is fact.

You have healed almost nothing as a druid beyond a couple normal runs. Nothing in classic, not Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, barely touched ICC, BWD, TOFW, not BoT, FL.

The most experience you have is LFR DS. You literally only touched a couple heroic bosses ever.

"pretend to have the end-all-be-all say-so on druid balance"

That best fits you, I hardly participate in these threads as much as you. Which is why I find it so humorous considering you have barely played the class.


Anarri is healing. However, Anarri is healing as a Monk, from what understand.
50 Human Priest
14170
No one should have to feel that their class makes getting heroic content down more difficult for their raid. I've been there, and it sucks.


I've been there too and it does suck. Right now, that problem isn't as bad for druids as its been for other classes (that weren't fixed) in the past. Things are good right now, better than they've ever been in terms of balance. All this druid is doing is stirring the pot trying to make something out of nothing.
100 Worgen Druid
12635
Anarri, it is not idiocy, it is fact.

You have healed almost nothing as a druid beyond a couple normal runs. Nothing in classic, not Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, barely touched ICC, BWD, TOFW, not BoT, FL.

The most experience you have is LFR DS. You literally only touched a couple heroic bosses ever.

"pretend to have the end-all-be-all say-so on druid balance"

That best fits you, I hardly participate in these threads as much as you. Which is why I find it so humorous considering you have barely played the class.


Anarri is healing. However, Anarri is healing as a Monk, from what understand.


Monk forums are over there --------------->
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/19/2012 1:49 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
4690
11/19/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Niktesla
No one should have to feel that their class makes getting heroic content down more difficult for their raid. I've been there, and it sucks.


I've been there too and it does suck. Right now, that problem isn't as bad for druids as its been for other classes (that weren't fixed) in the past. Things are good right now, better than they've ever been in terms of balance. All this druid is doing is stirring the pot trying to make something out of nothing.


Its not exactly nothing; its a lack of burst in a 25m setting and its an issue with AoE efficiency. Not exactly sweeping buffs to fix these issues, they simply need to be addressed.
100 Worgen Druid
12635
11/19/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Niktesla
No one should have to feel that their class makes getting heroic content down more difficult for their raid. I've been there, and it sucks.


I've been there too and it does suck. Right now, that problem isn't as bad for druids as its been for other classes (that weren't fixed) in the past. Things are good right now, better than they've ever been in terms of balance. All this druid is doing is stirring the pot trying to make something out of nothing.


I think it has been shown conclusively that balance is in fact not "good" in 25-man when druids are 50% behind top ranks on many fights and literally can not be found on any ranking page, period.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
11/19/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Niktesla
No one should have to feel that their class makes getting heroic content down more difficult for their raid. I've been there, and it sucks.


I've been there too and it does suck. Right now, that problem isn't as bad for druids as its been for other classes (that weren't fixed) in the past. Things are good right now, better than they've ever been in terms of balance. All this druid is doing is stirring the pot trying to make something out of nothing.


I (somewhat) agree with you about 10 man. However, I'm looking at the logs of Druids in 25 mans, and there is a significant gap. Can exceptional players sometimes make up for that gap? Yes. But most players aren't exceptional. Most players aren't even above average.
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
11/19/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Tiriél
-.- I have this gut feeling that you were benched or something and you're taking it very personally, but let me assure you that it's not because of your class.


I really don't think it's necessary for you to imply that Fangthorn, as a player, is just "bad" to prove your point. What exactly does that accomplish, other than making the player himself feel attacked?

But given that I'm familiar with Temerity, having raided on the same server with them and having encountered their members repeatedly in the past, I'll just say this much: If Fangthorn were "bad," he wouldn't even have a bench seat. He wouldn't have a guild tag. Temerity is a US 32 guild in 25 man, world rank 149. They don't carry bads, Fleurs.

Nor would they be giving him Heroic raid gear if he were "bad."

Fangthorn appears to be - from their own kill logs - the Resto Druid they bring IF they bring a Resto Druid. If they're NOT bringing a Resto Druid to particular fights, you might want to ask yourself why that is.

I like how you try to argue that I shouldn't imply someone's "bad" or imply they need more knowledge about things, when Fang, the person you're trying to defend, is doing the exact same thing to Anarri. Why aren't you defending Anarri, Tiriel? Fang's been picking fights with Anarri for a while now, yet you're not there to defend him.

I know why you're choosing to respond to me instead of Fang regarding Anarri, it couldn't be more clear, but really... It's seriously contradicting and is so blatantly obvious as to why you're choosing me to respond to.

In the end, I really don't care about the guy. He can be benched or not, and the fact that he's a whatever # guild you said just means he's reaching more top tier progression, which is not average and is not what Blizzard bases their balancing options off of. Just as you've said in the past.

With that said, I want to point out something that's on the application for the US 13 25man:
How do you feel about sitting out for any given encounter should we not need you? It will happen.

Every class, especially at top tier progression, will have a moment where they have to sit. Because of min/maxing. Druids are not bad, they are decent. They could be better, but with an easy fix to our mana CD/revitalize coming back or w/e, and upping the healing portion of WM. There is nothing drastically wrong with resto.

So, just because one class is being sat for certain bosses or encounters at top tier progression doesn't mean that class is automatically bad.
100 Worgen Druid
12635


I really don't think it's necessary for you to imply that Fangthorn, as a player, is just "bad" to prove your point. What exactly does that accomplish, other than making the player himself feel attacked?

But given that I'm familiar with Temerity, having raided on the same server with them and having encountered their members repeatedly in the past, I'll just say this much: If Fangthorn were "bad," he wouldn't even have a bench seat. He wouldn't have a guild tag. Temerity is a US 32 guild in 25 man, world rank 149. They don't carry bads, Fleurs.

Nor would they be giving him Heroic raid gear if he were "bad."

Fangthorn appears to be - from their own kill logs - the Resto Druid they bring IF they bring a Resto Druid. If they're NOT bringing a Resto Druid to particular fights, you might want to ask yourself why that is.

I like how you try to argue that I shouldn't imply someone's "bad" or imply they need more knowledge about things, when Fang, the person you're trying to defend, is doing the exact same thing to Anarri. Why aren't you defending Anarri, Tiriel? Fang's been picking fights with Anarri for a while now, yet you're not there to defend him.

I know why you're choosing to respond to me instead of Fang regarding Anarri, it couldn't be more clear, but really... It's seriously contradicting and is so blatantly obvious as to why you're choosing me to respond to.

In the end, I really don't care about the guy. He can be benched or not, and the fact that he's a whatever # guild you said just means he's reaching more top tier progression, which is not average and is not what Blizzard bases their balancing options off of. Just as you've said in the past.

With that said, I want to point out something that's on the application for the US 13 25man:
How do you feel about sitting out for any given encounter should we not need you? It will happen.

Every class, especially at top tier progression, will have a moment where they have to sit. Because of min/maxing. Druids are not bad, they are decent. They could be better, but with an easy fix to our mana CD/revitalize coming back or w/e, and upping the healing portion of WM. There is nothing drastically wrong with resto.

So, just because one class is being sat for certain bosses or encounters at top tier progression doesn't mean that class is automatically bad.


Excuse me.... I said inexperienced, never bad. Do not put words in my mouth. I do not make personal attacks like some people.

You know, experience does count for something.... and in the case of a very specialized activity such as healing raids on a specific class/spec, I think it matters a lot.

Other people are in fact using "bad" as a way to justify druids being sat, or imply that is why I and others are here. This bothers me little... Go ahead. At least know the difference though.
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/19/2012 2:10 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I responded to you, Fleurs, because I opened the thread and read the last few posts and saw yours. I don't know what fights Fang is having with Anarri, and frankly most of the posts are TLDR.

You are the one who attacked Fang on the premise that he's being sat because he's just bad. You could have addressed him on multiple other points, but you chose that one. Maybe if you hadn't resorted to personal attacks against someone you disagree with, I wouldn't have commented at all.

And I did defend Anarri - Fang said Anarri isn't healing. Anarri is healing, but not on the character he's posting on. The fact that he is not healing as a Druid and yet is telling Druids to sit down and shut up is a legitimate point.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
Why aren't you defending Anarri, Tiriel? Fang's been picking fights with Anarri for a while now, yet you're not there to defend him.



I'm quite sure if she'd seen Fang write something like this "I have this gut feeling that you were benched or something and you're taking it very personally" she would have piped up immediately.

It seems to me she isn't particularly fond of that kind of bullying personal attack.
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