Resto needs help the logs don't lie.

90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
But people are in fact using bad as a way to justify druids being sat, or imply that is why I am here. Well I am obviously killing stuff and raiding but this bothers me little...

Yes, they're saying we need to cry a bout it like priests did in the beginning of this tier. That's wrong, in my opinion. We do need changes but to claim we're terrible, "dead last", "bottom of the barrel" and all other things I've seen around here and the Druid forums lately, is a complete fallacy. There will always be someone on the bottom, but that doesn't mean they're bad.

Yes, in 25m there is a bigger disparity between resto and the other healers, but that can be fixed quite easily. And we've already seen GC say they're going to do something with shrooms. If resto druids were being sat continuously in even the most average of guilds, I would probably be fighting harder for changes. But we're not. Resto is fully capable of getting all bosses down, it's just that min/max guilds want as much as they can get from every class and person. So they actually care about the last .0001% of healing a certain class can dish out.

We do need changes, I agree. But we aren't bad.

The fact that he is not healing as a Druid and yet is telling Druids to sit down and shut up is a legitimate point.

I don't think I've seen him say that at all, that's just from your PoV I guess.

In the end, I don't even know why you bother to respond in the first place. Not your argument, and if you dislike me so much, you should probably steer away instead of talking to me. All you're going to get out of this is hurt feelings and be upset because I don't cater to people's feelings.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
11/19/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Fleurs
I don't think I've seen him say that at all, that's just from your PoV I guess.


It appears to be the view of several of the Druid posters here.

11/19/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Fleurs
In the end, I don't even know why you bother to respond in the first place. Not your argument, and if you dislike me so much, you should probably steer away instead of talking to me. All you're going to get out of this is hurt feelings and be upset because I don't cater to people's feelings.


I responded because you were taking a cheap shot at someone in order to try to intimidate them into shutting up. I responded because what you said was blatantly false, and you knew it, but it was more fun to look down your nose at another player than to look at what they were saying and address them on that.

If you can't debate someone without calling them names, suggesting they're bad, or otherwise being a condescending horse's behind, maybe you should get out of the water.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
Yes, in 25m there is a bigger disparity between resto and the other healers, but that can be fixed quite easily. And we've already seen GC say they're going to do something with shrooms. If resto druids were being sat continuously in even the most average of guilds, I would probably be fighting harder for changes. But we're not. Resto is fully capable of getting all bosses down, it's just that min/max guilds want as much as they can get from every class and person. So they actually care about the last .0001% of healing a certain class can dish out.

We do need changes, I agree. But we aren't bad.


Fleurs, this is a great response to the OP. It is *this* kind of response that is helpful, I'd imagine. It makes your point without the need to baselessly call him a baddie who was benched.
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
If you can't debate someone without calling them names, suggesting they're bad, or otherwise being a condescending horse's behind, maybe you should get out of the water.

I lol'd.

11/19/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Taymage
Fleurs, this is a great response to the OP. It is *this* kind of response that is helpful, I'd imagine. It makes your point without the need to baselessly call him a baddie who was benched.

I've been responding to many, many threads with responses like this for a while now. They're not just on the healing forums, but also on the Druid ones. So, this isn't new. I think both you and Tiriel only pay attention to specific attitudes or something, because I'm not doing anything different than normal. I just respond differently to different posts/posters. =\
90 Worgen Druid
11990
-.- I have this gut feeling that you were benched or something and you're taking it very personally, but let me assure you that it's not because of your class.


Oh I missed this tid-bit. Classy.

Not benched yet, hanging in there, thanks for your concern.

We do carry 8 strong healers, so on a side note; I hate Blizzard and this 4 heal to 7 heals BS from fight to fight. It compounds the issue of taking a druid over other stronger classes on the DPS checks.
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/19/2012 2:25 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
11990
Yes, they're saying we need to cry a bout it like priests did in the beginning of this tier. That's wrong, in my opinion. We do need changes but to claim we're terrible, "dead last", "bottom of the barrel" and all other things I've seen around here and the Druid forums lately, is a complete fallacy.


You are injecting hyperbole into my posts. I never said we are terrible, I literally agreed we are "OK". But we are in fact dead last, that is simple numbers. I would not call that fallacy, maybe remove the word "dead" and it is acceptable to you?

Yes, in 25m there is a bigger disparity between resto and the other healers, but that can be fixed quite easily. And we've already seen GC say they're going to do something with shrooms.


You will have to excuse my impatience and frustration with their lack of urgency.

He said this before, about 4-5 months ago in beta and I am still waiting....
Edited by Fangthorn on 11/19/2012 2:35 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
11/19/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Fangthorn
You are injecting hyperbole into my posts. I never said we are terrible, I literally agreed we are "OK". But we are in fact dead last, that is simple numbers. I would not call that fallacy, maybe remove the word "dead" and it is acceptable to you?

You misunderstand, it was never intended to be directed at you. It's been a widespread thing druids have been saying.
Edited by Fleurs on 11/19/2012 2:45 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
11/19/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Fangthorn
I never said we are terrible, I literally agreed we are "OK".


And then went on to state that being OK is not acceptable, and to insinuate that you should be above being benched in a competitive raid group. Sorry, but that's never going to happen, and the most hardcore guilds will swap healers in and out based on the needs of the fight, class balance aside.

11/19/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Fangthorn
But we are in fact dead last, that is simple numbers.


We're dead last in 25s in overall HPS and spec score, but we're only last by 2% in HPS and less than 1% in spec score. In 10s we aren't last, beating Shaman and Holy Priests in spec score and both priest specs in overall HPS. Classic example of your tendency to exaggerate things.

And yes, removing "dead" would help your argument, as its presence implies a greater gap between last and second last than simply saying "last," through connotation.

"pretend to have the end-all-be-all say-so on druid balance"

That best fits you, I hardly participate in these threads as much as you.


I've barely participated in these threads at all, other than that thread with Glorify, and on the occasions I do participate I do so only to attempt moderate the horrifying "sky is falling" wails of the likes of you.

You all but declare druids useless, and they're just not, Fangthorn. Maybe not great, especially in 25s, but we're far from useless. You seem to acknowledge this, but you still post as if the apocalypse is outside your door. Just relax a bit : /

Anarri is healing, but not on the character he's posting on. The fact that he is not healing as a Druid and yet is telling Druids to sit down and shut up is a legitimate point.


To be totally fair, I'm barely healing at all, even on my Monk. My guild has never been anything close to serious, nor have I.

That said, statistics don't lie, and druids are not nearly as terrible as some people make them out to be according to the data that's available to us. Are they great? No. Do they compete evenly with other classes? Not always. Could they use some buffs? Absolutely, and I've both acknowledged this and given some suggestions. But are druids useless? Not even close, and Paragon got the MSV world 1st with a druid in their healing team. You misread me if you think I'm telling druids to sit down and shut up, Tiriél. I'm doing much the same thing now as I did during the priest debacle: putting things in perspective.

With that perspective in mind, there are two problems with druids right now, tuning and scaling.

As a HoT-centric class we need to have a sustained throughput ceiling that's appreciably higher than that of the other classes, both to make up for our lack of burst as well as the relatively passive nature of HoTs. Historically we serve as raid stabilizers due to the highly focused nature of our AoE, and that means both evening out damage intake variances as well as providing a fairly stable amount of constant "buffer" healing. An across the board boost to our healing, or a boost to our longevity, would help us fall back into this niche, and would reveal the natural synergy we have with Monks, Paladins, and Shaman.

We are also the only class that doesn't receive any benefit from increases in raid size other than an increased amount of targets to heal, and this is the reason we seem lackluster in 25s. This one's a bit trickier to solve, as it represents a mechanical flaw in our toolkit, and I doubt we'll see a legitimate fix in the near future, though there are plenty of ideas for WM floating around that would serve as acceptable band-aids. In determining a more permanent fix it's important to keep in mind our niche, and the effects larger raid sizes have on that niche; namely, as other classes start to rely more on raid-wide abilities like HR (both of them), HW: Sanct, Uplift and SCK, the focused nature of our AoE will become more and more important, though naturally how important will depend on the damage pattern of the boss.

There's also some concern over our lack of burst potential, though to be honest I don't think that would be a significant problem if we were allowed to fill our niche better, and I think that significant buff in that regard would actually contradict the direction druid healing has been going in since Wrath, but to each his own. WM offers an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone in this regard, if the devs are so inclined.

There you have it, Fangthorn, my views of druid problems in a nutshell. At the very least, can we find some middle ground here?
Edited by Anarri on 11/19/2012 3:49 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I'm curious, Anarri, in the case of fights like Garalon (constant pulsing damage punctuated with periods of burst damage every 40ish seconds or so), in the past that would have been a fight Druids excelled at. Yet, they are being easily surpassed by the other HoT healers (primarily Monks, but also to an extent, Holy Priests, who can afford to blanket Renews across the raid in 10 mans). Do you feel that this is an issue of the actual power of the Druid heals, an issue of being too dependent on CD-bound heals (in the case of Swiftmend/Efflo and WG), or do you think the issue is actually mana (and thus longevity)?

We know that Efflo not scaling up is an issue in 25 mans, but even before there was Efflo - on fights like, for instance, Blood Queen Lana'thel (where there was constant pulsating damage, people were spread out, there was movement, and intermittent burst damage) - Druids would have excelled in a fight like that with just Rejuv and WG.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
11/19/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Sparklefever
[e] So are Holy/Disc Priests though, so... /shrug


Don't get me started about "band-aid fixes that ensure a nerf later on," Sparkle. :-P
90 Tauren Druid
14615
11/19/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Tiriél
We know that Efflo not scaling up is an issue in 25 mans, but even before there was Efflo - on fights like, for instance, Blood Queen Lana'thel (where there was constant pulsating damage, people were spread out, there was movement, and intermittent burst damage) - Druids would have excelled in a fight like that with just Rejuv and WG.


Druids did excel on almost every fight in ICC due to the slow steady damage and the nature of hots. However, blizz has been trying to destroy the hot spam gameplay for two expansions now. Unfortunately it's still the most potent form of healing for resto druids so we keep trying to get back there when we get enough mana regen.

The problem is pretty easy to see. Resto druids have fewer cooldowns than other healing classes. In the past we made up for that with higher hps. Now our hps is equal or lower than other classes. While the druid is still a viable healing class, other classes are just better. I really can't think of a situation where a resto shaman wouldn't be a better option than a druid for 25 man raiding.
90 Troll Druid
9940
11/19/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Sparklefever
Druids are going to scale really, really well. Rejuv usage is really low right now.


They are. By the time the next tier comes around, druids should be capable of rejuv spamming more at a firelands/early DS level level of mana, especially if the t15 2pc is another mana regen kind of bonus that you can combine with the 10% rejuv 2pc t14.

The major problem I see with resto druids on 25man that can't be fixed by gear is they have nothing useful for group up and burst heal moments in a fight. All of the good druid aoe abilities are target capped and there's a huge void where mushroom usage would come into play but aren't worth the time to put down and explode due to their total lack of throughput.

In fights where people are spread out, druids are not bad right now with plenty of potential to get better with gear. The only problem is that you gotta hang around a bit to see it really take full effect.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
11/19/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Tiriél
Do you feel that this is an issue of the actual power of the Druid heals, an issue of being too dependent on CD-bound heals (in the case of Swiftmend/Efflo and WG), or do you think the issue is actually mana (and thus longevity)?


It's partly longevity and partly just the power of the heals. Like I said, I feel we should be tuned to slightly higher sustained throughput than the other classes (save for Monks; they need the throughput advantage to justify the lack of control in their AoE toolkit) to make up for the fact that we can't burst, and are much more susceptible to overheal.

And as has been said, we'll start to open up a lot more when we have the regen to sustain heavier rejuv use.
90 Tauren Druid
11270
Druids are probably "OK" healers but they do not excel at anything.

There is absolutely nothing a druid healer can do--healing-wise--that another healer cannot either duplicate reasonably well or simply do better.

We are a B- gap filler that is a bit more mobile than some of the other healers.

I think every other healer has something either very unique to add to the raid or are the best at something...sometimes, both. Druids have neither which can put them at a disadvantage.

The uniqueness of a druid lies in the ability to fill other roles more easily--especially with Heart of the Wild. If you can gain something from an extra tank or dps for 45 seconds at the cost of one of your healers, great! If not...well, there goes your uniqueness. The other level 90 talents also allow for some additional hybridization of what can be brought to the table but I think you get what I'm talking about.

In any case, I think it's a bit disappointing that there are those that would attack Fang for being "bad" when he's obviously done a good deal of difficult content early on.
90 Worgen Druid
Tau
12965
I think people need to get away from arguing about meters. It's not all meters. Its our tool set or lack of tool set we have. We rely mainly on Lifebloom (single target unless in Incarnation then you are really gcd capped and its mainly used for a mana regen cooldown). Then rejuv which you have to use sparingly or you will go oom too fast, Wildgrowth which has a cooldown (not asking to get it changed) then you kind of just sit around waiting for wildgrowth to come off cooldown because your other spells will make you go oom too fast. OOC is very useful if the proc comes up and someone takes a lot of dmg but its all about luck with that spell. I am not going to talk about tranq as even though I feel its lack luster any buff would have the rest of the healer demanding a nerf.

If there's constant damage with movement it really show what we lack. I despise the mushrooms, having to stop healing to place them then when you bloom them you don't see any difference in hp just plain sucks. People want to heal not stop healing to place a clunky spell.

I don't want to compare us to other classes as they have their own problems and thats for them to discuss. Druid just need something to make them exciting and fun and not stand around waiting for mana regen and cooldowns to be ready. That is not fun game play and quite frankly is boring the leaves off me.
90 Tauren Druid
4690
To sum up all the issues:
Mushrooms are useless(I'd say turn them into targeted efflo's that you can place wherever, even stacked one on top of the other, then give it a 40-60s cooldown and remove the target cap)
Mana to cast Rejuve: Rejuve is simply too expensive right now to be our go to heal.....it either needs are cost reduction or we need a beak in mana elsewhere.

I'd say do what I suggest with Shrooms, make people WANT to cast them, then see where we stand; if we still need buffs, drop the mana cost of Rejuve by 10-15% and make it stack with the t14 2pc.
50 Human Priest
14170
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/60/default/#3o00000
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/100/14/60/default/#omgwtfkittens

No druids aren't behind in 10m at all. They are doing well. Stop making things up. The proof is in the above data. Don't forget to check all the healer boxes. To sum up, some classes are better in 10m than 25m and the opposite is true of others. Its not a new situation and its been like this since WotLK. It hasn't been fixed for some of those classes either and I don't think its something they want to fix else it would have been fixed by now. Druids are fine, stop being silly.
90 Troll Druid
11690
I'm curious, Anarri, in the case of fights like Garalon (constant pulsing damage punctuated with periods of burst damage every 40ish seconds or so), in the past that would have been a fight Druids excelled at. Yet, they are being easily surpassed by the other HoT healers (primarily Monks, but also to an extent, Holy Priests, who can afford to blanket Renews across the raid in 10 mans). Do you feel that this is an issue of the actual power of the Druid heals, an issue of being too dependent on CD-bound heals (in the case of Swiftmend/Efflo and WG), or do you think the issue is actually mana (and thus longevity)?

We know that Efflo not scaling up is an issue in 25 mans, but even before there was Efflo - on fights like, for instance, Blood Queen Lana'thel (where there was constant pulsating damage, people were spread out, there was movement, and intermittent burst damage) - Druids would have excelled in a fight like that with just Rejuv and WG.


I think this is an excellent point. Why are we not excelling on a fight designed specifically for druids? We're the best healer on the move due to our fast and instant cast toolkit. Steady, pulsing damage is the perfect situation for HoTs, which is our biggest strength. Yes, monks are broken, but we should at least be in second place.
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