Was the purpose of ToW

But I am agreeing that the bomb clinched the win for the Horde. Where is the double standard?

The only point being made here is that it took the bomb to seal the deal. Absent that, they would have lost.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
Technically, the ALliance won the battle of Theramore.

The mana bomb was thrown afterwards.


Sorry, was showering.

Garrosh held back on purpose. He intended to lose the initial assault so that he would have his soldiers' loyalty all the more when he trumped Jaina with the mana bomb.

The Alliance only won because the Horde let them. They weren't strong enough to hold back the Horde if the Horde had intended to take Theramore by ground assault instead of the mana bomb.
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100 Night Elf Priest
17385
he lost the battle.


I'm sorry, but could you please point out Theramore on a map of Kalimdor, to me, please?

What you guys are arguing is like arguing that the U.S.A didn't decisively win the war in the Pacific Theatre in 1945.


If that's how you want to do it, fine. What I've said in the first place is that Garrosh did NOT steamroll the Alliance forces at Theramore, and in fact didn't have the capacity to do it with armed combat.

You said that the Alliance couldn't beat the Horde in straight combat even when their best was there. But they did. Yes, Garrosh won with the Mana bomb in the end, but he still lost the land battle. THAT is what I've been arguing all that time.

You said that the Alliance can't stand against the Horde if they don't have some sort of MacGuffin, but you know what? That's because the Horde have THEIR OWN MacGuffin already. They send magnataurs? The Alliance raises a Goldrinn-empowered Varian. They have a focusing iris-empowered mana bomb? The Alliance raises a focusing iris-empowered JAINA.

Technically, the ALliance won the battle of Theramore.

The mana bomb was thrown afterwards.


Sorry, was showering.

Garrosh held back on purpose. He intended to lose the initial assault so that he would have his soldiers' loyalty all the more when he trumped Jaina with the mana bomb.

The Alliance only won because the Horde let them. They weren't strong enough to hold back the Horde if the Horde had intended to take Theramore by ground assault instead of the mana bomb.


Garrosh didn't hold back, he let his troops fight to the best of their capacity. His troops fought their hardest, and failed to take Theramore. He held back only because he waited a week before marching, and if he hadn't, yes, he would have won. But he let Theramore get reinforced, and if he didn't have the mana bomb for this exact purpose, then he would have lost.
Edited by Resileaf on 11/18/2012 5:08 PM PST
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91 Undead Hunter
13220
11/18/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Resileaf
You said that the Alliance can't stand against the Horde if they don't have some sort of MacGuffin, but you know what? That's because the Horde have THEIR OWN MacGuffin already. They send magnataurs? The Alliance raises a Goldrinn-empowered Varian. They have a focusing iris-empowered mana bomb? The Alliance raises a focusing iris-empowered JAINA.


The Alliance brought out their macguffin before the Horde did, in the Battle of Theramore. A neutral party of magi, and a former Aspect. If they did not rely on the aide of a DRAGON and a NEUTRAL party, Theramore would've fallen. I'm done arguing with you because you're clearly too biased against the Horde to see the issue clearly.

11/18/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Resileaf
Garrosh didn't hold back, he let his troops fight to the best of their capacity. His troops fought their hardest, and failed to take Theramore. He held back only because he waited a week before marching, and if he hadn't, yes, he would have won. But he let Theramore get reinforced, and if he didn't have the mana bomb for this exact purpose, then he would have lost.


But he did hold back. He sat on his haunches for several days, allowing the Alliance to build up so he wipe them all out in one blow. That is holding back.
Edited by Moertos on 11/18/2012 5:11 PM PST
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
But I am agreeing that the bomb clinched the win for the Horde. Where is the double standard?

The only point being made here is that it took the bomb to seal the deal. Absent that, they would have lost.


The earlier attack was a feint...
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Resileaf
You said that the Alliance couldn't beat the Horde in straight combat even when their best was there. But they did.


But they didn't through their own skill, tenacity and strength. They 'won' because of was part of Garrosh's plan. If you want to call that a 'win', be my guest.

Using the mana bomb to level Theramore was what he intended the whole time. Everything else was just to build the unbreakable loyalty you see in the orcs now.

11/18/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Resileaf
They have a focusing iris-empowered mana bomb? The Alliance raises a focusing iris-empowered JAINA.


I daresay that the mana bomb had more of an effect than the stupid-neutral Jaina, but that's a discussion for another time.
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Resileaf, Garrosh did hold back. He could have marched directly on Theramore after Northwatch and very likely taken it off the march before Jaina got reinforcements. No mana bomb necessary for this, either.

He did this deliberately because he wanted the Alliance to deploy in force there and then catch the reinforcements in the city with the bomb.

But that win came at a very high cost. It has shaken the unity of the Horde and at the same time glued that of the Alliance. Nor was Garrosh able to conduct the follow up campaign that involved the subsequent conquest of Kalimdor entirely.

He very narrowly avoided having Jaina return the favor on Org, too.
Edited by Deerde on 11/18/2012 5:17 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
17385
You said that the Alliance can't stand against the Horde if they don't have some sort of MacGuffin, but you know what? That's because the Horde have THEIR OWN MacGuffin already. They send magnataurs? The Alliance raises a Goldrinn-empowered Varian. They have a focusing iris-empowered mana bomb? The Alliance raises a focusing iris-empowered JAINA.


The Alliance brought out their macguffin before the Horde did, in the Battle of Theramore. A neutral party of magi, and a former Aspect. If they did not rely on the aide of a DRAGON and a NEUTRAL party, Theramore would've fallen. I'm done arguing with you because you're clearly too biased against the Horde to see the issue clearly.


Funny thing is, if the Horde didn't steal the Focusing iris, they wouldn't have been fighting an ex-aspect.
Neutral doesn't also mean passive. It also doesn't mean squat when Garrosh makes it clear he has no intention of sparing neutral parties.

Perhaps we simply have different definitions of holding back in this case. I mean holding back in the battle itself, which he didn't, you mean holding back in the entire campaign, which he did.
Edited by Resileaf on 11/18/2012 5:18 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Deerde
He very narrowly avoided having Jaina return the favor on Org, too.


This was absolutely the dumbest part of the book.

Jaina had the power to end the war, right there. And she didn't do it.

Varian + the rest of the Alliance should be cursing her name and spitting in her face for the loss they're going to suffer because she went soft on them.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
11/18/2012 05:19 PMPosted by Thorm
He very narrowly avoided having Jaina return the favor on Org, too.


This was absolutely the dumbest part of the book.

Jaina had the power to end the war, right there. And she didn't do it.

Varian + the rest of the Alliance should be cursing her name and spitting in her face for the loss they're going to suffer because she went soft on them.


No, that's a good thing Thorm. She'd be killing children if she wiped out Orgrimmar. CHILDREN. Don't even try and justify that. Innocent lives would be spilled because of that and Jaina knows it, Kalec knows it heck even Thrall knows it.
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Thorm, I will concede that IRL deterrence theory almost demands retaliation, lest one side gets the idea they can lob WMD without response. Realistically, forbearance between two enemies with access to WMD goes out the window once one side uses them; the other side will respond in kind.

But they can't go there for game and story reasons.

The story basically winds up with a reset at the end, with neither the Horde or the Alliance having an edge over the other. That result is pretty much mandatory. Yeah, it involves some suspension of disbelief, but there you go.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Lorthuron
No, that's a good thing Thorm. She'd be killing children if she wiped out Orgrimmar. CHILDREN. Don't even try and justify that. Innocent lives would be spilled because of that and Jaina knows it, Kalec knows it heck even Thrall knows it.


A bunch of innocent orcs (orcs that fully supported Garrosh's intended genocide of the Alliance, but I digress) would have died, yes.

In return, she would have prevented the world war, as the orcs were the guiding force behind it. Hundreds of orcs for thousands of other lives, or perhaps millions if we were to go all out.

All the loss, both from the Alliance and Horde, all the destruction sown on Pandaria, the weakening of our forces when the Burning Legion inevitably arrives... none of it would have happened (save the orcs being shattered as a race) had Jaina not gone soft.

I'd say it would have been a worthy sacrifice.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
No, that's a good thing Thorm. She'd be killing children if she wiped out Orgrimmar. CHILDREN. Don't even try and justify that. Innocent lives would be spilled because of that and Jaina knows it, Kalec knows it heck even Thrall knows it.


A bunch of innocent orcs (orcs that fully supported Garrosh's intended genocide of the Alliance, but I digress) would have died, yes.

In return, she would have prevented the world war, as the orcs were the guiding force behind it. Hundreds of orcs for thousands of other lives, or perhaps millions if we were to go all out.

All the loss, both from the Alliance and Horde, all the destruction sown on Pandaria, the weakening of our forces when the Burning Legion inevitably arrives... none of it would have happened (save the orcs being shattered as a race) had Jaina not gone soft.

I'd say it would have been a worthy sacrifice.


No it wouldn't We would be hypocrites. Just because Garrosh planned on genocide doesn't mean we should resort to their methods. Two wrongs don't make a right Thorm. It wouldn't of been a worthy sacrifice. If anything the Horde wouldn't of stopped. We would just be as vil as the Orcs. Children live in Orgrimmar. I get it you want to do damage but going on the Dark Horde's path is never the answer.
Edited by Lorthuron on 11/18/2012 5:32 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
17385


A bunch of innocent orcs (orcs that fully supported Garrosh's intended genocide of the Alliance, but I digress) would have died, yes.

In return, she would have prevented the world war, as the orcs were the guiding force behind it. Hundreds of orcs for thousands of other lives, or perhaps millions if we were to go all out.

All the loss, both from the Alliance and Horde, all the destruction sown on Pandaria, the weakening of our forces when the Burning Legion inevitably arrives... none of it would have happened (save the orcs being shattered as a race) had Jaina not gone soft.

I'd say it would have been a worthy sacrifice.


No it wouldn't We would be hypocrites. Just because Garrosh planned on genocide doesn't mean we should resort to their methods. Two wrongs don't make a right Thorm. It wouldn't of been a worthy sacrifice. If anything the Horde wouldn't of stopped.


I dunno... The Horde WOULD have been crippled. Almost the entire army that was at Theramore was there when Jaina was about to use her magic. And after she had drowned Orgrimmar, there would only have been Garrosh's navy left, leaderless. Varian would have died, but he's just one king, and he had Anduin able to take the lead.
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90 Human Warrior
13525


No it wouldn't We would be hypocrites. Just because Garrosh planned on genocide doesn't mean we should resort to their methods. Two wrongs don't make a right Thorm. It wouldn't of been a worthy sacrifice. If anything the Horde wouldn't of stopped.


I dunno... The Horde WOULD have been crippled. Almost the entire army that was at Theramore was there when Jaina was about to use her magic. And after she had drowned Orgrimmar, there would only have been Garrosh's navy left, leaderless. Varian would have died, but he's just one king, and he had Anduin able to take the lead.


At what cost? We'd be hypocrites and making Garrosh look justified and we couldn't complain about Garrosh any longer. Suggesting going down to Garrosh's level just because we're so desperate to win a battle is sick.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Lorthuron
At what cost? We'd be hypocrites and making Garrosh look justified and we couldn't complain about Garrosh any longer. Suggesting going down to Garrosh's level just because we're so desperate to win a battle is sick.


I'll gladly take being called a hypocrite if it means thousands and thousands of lives are saved because of it.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
At what cost? We'd be hypocrites and making Garrosh look justified and we couldn't complain about Garrosh any longer. Suggesting going down to Garrosh's level just because we're so desperate to win a battle is sick.


I'll gladly take being called a hypocrite if it means thousands and thousands of lives are saved because of it.


I won't. We'd be villains if we went that route. The ends don't justify the means. It's just wrong, you're basically justifying the killing of children. What would it matter if the Horde was wiped out, Alliance would look bad. Thrall would be pissed, Baine would be angry heck the remnant Horde would be mad and things would be worse off. Heck with the Legion coming we might be doomed to even more thousands of lives but by your logic we may as well let the Infinite mess with time to *Save thousands of lives*.
Edited by Lorthuron on 11/18/2012 5:41 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
17385


I dunno... The Horde WOULD have been crippled. Almost the entire army that was at Theramore was there when Jaina was about to use her magic. And after she had drowned Orgrimmar, there would only have been Garrosh's navy left, leaderless. Varian would have died, but he's just one king, and he had Anduin able to take the lead.


At what cost? We'd be hypocrites and making Garrosh look justified and we couldn't complain about Garrosh any longer. Suggesting going down to Garrosh's level just because we're so desperate to win a battle is sick.


Actually, that was more directed to the "Horde wouldn't be stopped" part of your comment. I don't personally support the drowning of the whole of Orgrimmar, including the innocents.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 05:39 PMPosted by Lorthuron
I won't. We'd be villains if we went that route. The ends don't justify the means. It's just wrong, you're basically justifying the killing of children.


Go hang out with the Argents, then. They'd love to have you.

In the meantime, I'll be over here, wondering why she didn't save hundreds of thousands of lives when she had the power to, and if she cares about all the suffering that will be caused from her weakness.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0

The only point being made here is that it took the bomb to seal the deal. Absent that, they would have lost.

I'm starting to notice that's actually a pretty consistent pattern. The Horde appears unable to face The Alliance in direct combat without the aid of some sort of trump card (be it a superweapon or a traitor or some secret new unit).
11/18/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Resileaf
Garrosh didn't hold back, he let his troops fight to the best of their capacity. His troops fought their hardest, and failed to take Theramore. He held back only because he waited a week before marching, and if he hadn't, yes, he would have won. But he let Theramore get reinforced, and if he didn't have the mana bomb for this exact purpose, then he would have lost.

It's not really a failure if that was, by all appearances, kind of the point all along.
The ends don't justify the means.

Yes they do.
We'd be villains if we went that route.

But killing thousands more, ravaging Pandaria and releasing the Sha are all quite noble instead, right?
Edited by Aureus on 11/18/2012 5:57 PM PST
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