Was the purpose of ToW

100 Night Elf Priest
17460
11/18/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Thorm
I won't. We'd be villains if we went that route. The ends don't justify the means. It's just wrong, you're basically justifying the killing of children.


Go hang out with the Argents, then. They'd love to have you.

In the meantime, I'll be over here, wondering why she didn't save hundreds of thousands of lives when she had the power to, and if she cares about all the suffering that will be caused from her weakness.


I wonder if you would have really done different yourself. If you could have personally pressed the doomsday button that would have killed everyone in an entire country to stop a war. You act like its just as simple as doing it and forgetting about it, like you can have the burden of all of those deaths on your conscience.

Yes, its just a game, a fictional universe, but if you want to get emotionally invested in the universe of the game you play in, you have to consider events as if they were really happening. You have to think that every NPC you kill is a real person, with a family, hopes, beliefs and dreams.

Now imagine that you have the opportunity to kill hundreds of thousands of very real people with just the press of a button. In your mind, you may think that yes, it IS the best thing to do for the good of everyone. But unless you can really live with the knowledge that you've personally caused so many deaths, I doubt you can judge her on that.
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90 Human Warrior
13525
Yes they do.


No it's not.

Go hang out with the Argents, then. They'd love to have you.

In the meantime, I'll be over here, wondering why she didn't save hundreds of thousands of lives when she had the power to, and if she cares about all the suffering that will be caused from her weakness.


No the Argents have so similar themes with the Alliance. The Alliance is about not resorting to Dark Horde tactics. I get you want to be the bad guy well you can enjoy that on being the Horde at the moment.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
11/18/2012 05:59 PMPosted by Lorthuron
Yes they do.


No it's not.


Why not?

You still haven't answered as to how it's more noble to let Pandaria get ravaged by the Sha, Darnassus get sacked by the Horde, Krasarang turned into a battleground and whatever's going to happen after that than it is to just level Orgrimmar.

11/18/2012 05:59 PMPosted by Lorthuron
get you want to be the bad guy well you can enjoy that on being the Horde at the moment.

Who said anything about wanting to be the bad guy? Being disingenuous when framing your argument just makes you look like a tool.
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100 Night Elf Priest
17460
11/18/2012 06:06 PMPosted by Aureus


No it's not.


Why not?

You still haven't answered as to how it's more noble to let Pandaria get ravaged by the Sha, Darnassus get sacked by the Horde, Krasarang turned into a battleground and whatever's going to happen after that than it is to just level Orgrimmar.


There was no noble option. It was personally kill hundreds of thousands of people or let even more die, but not by her hand.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Resileaf
There was no noble option. It was personally kill hundreds of thousands of people or let even more die, but not by her hand.


Perhaps not directly, but all those dying and suffering in the war right now do owe that to her.

As well as who knows how many who died their agonising deaths at Theramore.

Jaina has a lot of blood on her hands. Its interesting how she never acknowledges it.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
Jaina obviously never watched Watchmen.
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100 Night Elf Priest
17460
11/18/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Thorm
There was no noble option. It was personally kill hundreds of thousands of people or let even more die, but not by her hand.


Perhaps not directly, but all those dying and suffering in the war right now do owe that to her.

As well as who knows how many who died their agonising deaths at Theramore.

Jaina has a lot of blood on her hands. Its interesting how she never acknowledges it.


I doubt she doesn't acknowledges it. Doesn't state it publically? That's just natural. I doubt she'd just go around telling everyone how everything is her fault.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Resileaf
I doubt she doesn't acknowledges it. Doesn't state it publically? That's just natural. I doubt she'd just go around telling everyone how everything is her fault.


She forgave the Horde for Theramore and refused to stand against them until she thought Anduin was dead. Not the hundreds dying their horrible deaths in her name, not the thousands suffering in a war she allowed, but the THOUGHT of the death of one. Just one.

If she feels anything for all the death on her hands, she certainly has a strange way of showing it.
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If we we're gonna blame Jaina for not nuking Org, we probably also need to blame Kalecgos, Anduin, Varian, the Kirin Tor, and the Alliance generally. Nobody was backing her up here, rather the opposite. Everybody was doing their level best to get her to climb down. So she did.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
11/18/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Deerde
If we we're gonna blame Jaina for not nuking Org, we probably also need to blame Kalecgos, Anduin, Varian, the Kirin Tor, and the Alliance generally. Nobody was backing her up here, rather the opposite. Everybody was doing their level best to get her to climb down. So she did.


Varian didn't want to because Jaina wanted to use the Alliance in a full-out assault, and he didn't want to waste Alliance lives.

The others are neutral, so that's naturally what they'd say, of course.

Besides, I've specifically been talking about Jaina's flooding of Orgrimmar using the Focusing Iris.
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86 Worgen Warrior
10845
Here's one thing that really irritates me about Christie's writing.

Okay, so people here are saying that in Theramore no children were harmed and there were very few civilian casualties if anything. I was given a source for this and I conceded at that point.

But then I remembered what Sky Admiral Rogers said:

Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!


So who's wrong here? Christie Golden's sloppy writing or Blizzard's sloppy writing? Or is Admiral Rogers simply pulling Sylvanas-levels of propaganda just to get the Alliance ramped up for Horde mowing session?
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100 Night Elf Priest
17460
Here's one thing that really irritates me about Christie's writing.

Okay, so people here are saying that in Theramore no children were harmed and there were very few civilian casualties if anything. I was given a source for this and I conceded at that point.

But then I remembered what Sky Admiral Rogers said:

Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!


So who's wrong here? Christie Golden's sloppy writing or Blizzard's sloppy writing? Or is Admiral Rogers simply pulling Sylvanas-levels of propaganda just to get the Alliance ramped up for Horde mowing session?


I'd go for propaganda. She's just about to send her troops in battle, they need to really be in it. A pep talk of sort.
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90 Orc Warlock
0
Technically, the ALliance won the battle of Theramore.

The mana bomb was thrown afterwards.


http://www.wowhead.com/npc=58816

The "failed" siege was merely a faint, of course. You didn't realize?


The "failed" siege was merely a faint, of course. You didn't realize?


The "failed" siege was merely a faint, of course. You didn't realize?


The "failed" siege was merely a faint, of course. You didn't realize?


The "failed" siege was merely a faint, of course. You didn't realize?
Edited by Kurze on 11/18/2012 11:23 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
What I don't get is that Jania doesn't seem concerned for the survivors of Theramore. She pretty much abandoned them.
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90 Human Warlock
13830
Civilian casualties happen when you wage total war. Killing your enemies' workforce and destroying their industrial centers reduces their ability to reinforce. The fact that the Alliance made the call to evacuate noncombatants from the city prior to the attack doesn't mean Garrosh wouldn't have bombed it anyway if they didn't.

The Alliance in a realistic scenario would have responded in kind, possibly with a nighttime bombing raid against the Goblins. (The Goblins are A. the most tech savvy race the Horde has, and B. their huge caches of unprotected explosives makes them an easy target for carpet bombing.)

However, this is WoW, where the Alliance isn't allowed to make strategically sound decisions when their moral uprightness is on the line, even when it would have been an eye for an eye and much easier to justify as it was in ToW.
Edited by Saitharis on 11/19/2012 6:51 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
10035
11/18/2012 03:02 PMPosted by Haely


The writing loses even more favor with me, because if it was the actual intention of the writer, then the writer is daft because that was not an appropriate place for humor in the story.


I haven't read the book yet, keep putting it off. So I don't know where it happens just sounds kind of like what was meant to be.


Congrats on commenting on something you have no knowledge of.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13395
11/18/2012 06:55 PMPosted by Resileaf
I'd go for propaganda. She's just about to send her troops in battle, they need to really be in it. A pep talk of sort.


I think we also need to consider that not all the civilians were evacuated. Many of them were, but the books does mention that some chose to stay.

Although those that do end up leaving on a single ship, which would be odd for a city the size of Theramore. I doubt there would be enough room on a single ship for every child in Theramore even if they packed them in shoulder-to-shoulder and didn't bring an actual crew. One thing Christie Golden always had problems with is scale (In Rise of the Horde for example the entire Orcish Horde drinks demon blood one at a time, a process that should of taken weeks, not hours as the book implied).
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
I won't. We'd be villains if we went that route. The ends don't justify the means. It's just wrong, you're basically justifying the killing of children. What would it matter if the Horde was wiped out, Alliance would look bad. Thrall would be pissed, Baine would be angry heck the remnant Horde would be mad and things would be worse off. Heck with the Legion coming we might be doomed to even more thousands of lives but by your logic we may as well let the Infinite mess with time to *Save thousands of lives*.


Will you stop with this pacifistic BS line? It is a JUSTIFIED response, or as Deerde says, the otherside gets the impression that it can use WMDs, or the Azerothian equivalent without retaliation. When someone hits you like that and you do not respond in kind, you are telling them, that YOU are too weak to do it. That your will is so pathetic, you aren't willing to do the same. The cold hard fact is that when someone uses a nuke on you, you are justified and had better retaliate in kind or you will lose the war because you are too damned weak willing to spill blood.

After the Blitz of London and all of England, the firebombings of Drezden and other German and Japanese cites were a justified response. Not only did it bring the war to the population (where a war NEEDS to be taken to so they know what they are doing to others), but it began to cripple the war effort and make the people see how ineffective their government was in protecting the homeland.

The Alliance is fully justified in retaliating by wiping out Orgrimmar no mater what you think. I am glad you aren't in the military in a command position. You'd be a ineffective commander. After what Garrosh did to Theramore, the rest of the Horde would not and -should- not be surprised if the Allaince responded in kind. Effectively wiping out the second largest Alliance city should have pissed off the -entire- Alliance and sent a reality check to the other races of the Horde. They should expect a retaliation of equal (at least) proportion and not be mad at the Alliance for taking a justified action, but they should be afraid that they might be on the list of targets because they are a part of the Horde.

You keep arguing that the Horde allies would be outraged at the Alliance wiping out Org. Why? Realistically, why should they be mad at the Alliance for doing that when the Horde did the dame thing -first?

The Alliance has a long way to go before it is as bad as the Horde. The Alliance uses a gradual scale of violence while the Horde uses the most powerful weapons first and revels in blood, gore and violence.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
15185
...well I, and other people I know, liked the book...
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90 Goblin Mage
8380
Will you stop with this pacifistic BS line? It is a JUSTIFIED response, or as Deerde says, the otherside gets the impression that it can use WMDs, or the Azerothian equivalent without retaliation...

It really depends on the situation the Alliance and Horde find themselves in when Garrosh is defeated and dethroned.

I imagine that once that happens, Thrall and Vol'jin will turn to Varian and say "Hey, enough of our people have died, enough of your people have died, let's all stop fighting for now and we'll meet up later to discuss things."

Varian could possibly do it your way and have Org smashed to the ground as "payment" for all the mischief that Garrosh and his followers have done. However in the face of potential peace agreement is that really the moral path to follow? Hardly. Varian, with his current Goldrinn enforced mindset at the helm, would agree to this. And he'd be right. You can scream about "Justification" and "what should be done to make sure an enemy can never attack you again" until you're voice goes out for all I care. When faced with surrender and offerings of peace from your enemy who doesn't want to fight anymore and select instead to continue to bomb and kill them, just cause you're afraid they might attack you again, that's murder and genocide. Committed by you. The Alliance.
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