Tanks dying in Blade Lord Ta'yak

90 Human Rogue
9515
As the title says above our 10M raid has been trying for the past 2 days to down this boss and we simply cannot do it.
We know the fight well and we usually have the 2 tanks swap the boss when they reach 2 stacks using a cooldown on the second hit but we still have problems.
One of the tanks usually dies randomly getting one shotted by the boss when he only has 1 stack. Leads me to believe that maybe they're undergeared or they are not gearing properly.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Here are their armories if it helps:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/quelthalas/Afr%C3%B6dita/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/quelthalas/Alhazrath/simple
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90 Troll Priest
14820
Are they using any sort of defensive cool down during the strikes they are dying?

What comp of healers are you running with?
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100 Human Paladin
16040
We know the fight well and we usually have the 2 tanks swap the boss when they reach 2 stacks using a cooldown on the second hit but we still have problems.
One of the tanks usually dies randomly getting one shotted by the boss when he only has 1 stack. Leads me to believe that maybe they're undergeared or they are not gearing properly.


DBM is very bad at this fight to predict Overwhelming Assault (OA); if you time your cooldowns strictly using DBM you'd can get some nasty deaths due to not having cooldowns when he does the second OA...

From my experience the second OA comes between having 24 seconds left on OA debuff to 30 seconds left on OA debuff... If it doesn't happen, then he usually does an unseen strike or that teleporting hit, and does the OA immediately afterward. So what I do is use my small cooldown (glyphed divine protection) when I have 30 seconds left on OA debuff, and if he doesn't do the second OA when I have 24 seconds left, then I use a major cooldown for the impending unseen strike and OA.

You shouldn't have trouble if you have even a small cooldown for the second OA, but it really hurts if you don't...

edit: as a prot pally you can reduce the dmg further by smart management of holy power... save 5 bubbles when your debuff has 30 seconds left, do a SoR, then a holy power builder, and another SoR when first one expires, and (assume you build enough HP) do another SoR immediately after his unseen strike if he hasn't done the OA yet... doing this way his OA barely tickles...

edit 2: retract what I said about DBM since I was a nub not updating to latest version of DBM. Concept still applies though, use a minor CD (and possibly a major CD too) on every second OA and it should be fine... save HP and chain SoR through it if you are a prot pally...
Edited by Emmey on 11/20/2012 12:35 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
12985
If they are a Paladin they should Hit > Expertise hard cap, odds are you will have the SoR buff up most of the time.
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100 Human Paladin
14380
11/19/2012 08:20 PMPosted by Azuremi
If they are a Paladin they should Hit > Expertise hard cap, odds are you will have the SoR buff up most of the time.


I had the buff up for every single one, every time. There's no excuse for paladins. The idea for us is to pool our holy power to 5, and double ShoR just before it. The timer is pretty accurate in my experience.
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100 Human Paladin
16040
11/19/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Dekkar
The timer is pretty accurate in my experience.


What timer you used? DBM? It failed badly for me (he OA when I have like 5 seconds left on timer) so I ended up turning it off and do it based on debuff duration (which varies a lot)... Guess I'd check it out again next week...
Edited by Emmey on 11/19/2012 9:41 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
14380
11/19/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Emmey
The timer is pretty accurate in my experience.


What timer you used? DBM? It failed badly for me (he OA when I have like 5 seconds left on timer) so I ended up turning it off and do it based on debuff duration (which varies a lot)... Guess I'd check it out again next week...


I'm using the newest alpha version of DBM. The timer was absolutely spot on for me.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
Alway update to alpha as often as possible when new content comes out.

So much changes from beta, that even with the bugs inherent in an alpha release, they'll be more accurate than the beta finished timers that are usually what's used.
Edited by Postonforums on 11/19/2012 11:54 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
16040
11/19/2012 10:51 PMPosted by Dekkar
I'm using the newest alpha version of DBM. The timer was absolutely spot on for me.


Good to know and thanks for the info. That should make chaining SoR and applying HoSac much easier for me...
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90 Orc Warrior
11190
As the title says above our 10M raid has been trying for the past 2 days to down this boss and we simply cannot do it.
We know the fight well and we usually have the 2 tanks swap the boss when they reach 2 stacks using a cooldown on the second hit but we still have problems.
One of the tanks usually dies randomly getting one shotted by the boss when he only has 1 stack. Leads me to believe that maybe they're undergeared or they are not gearing properly.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Here are their armories if it helps:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/quelthalas/Afr%C3%B6dita/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/quelthalas/Alhazrath/simple


They are randomly getting 1 shotted when the second stack is being applied.

The first stack increases damage from the attack by 100%. This means that when he first does the attack, not much damage will be going through to the tank. However when the next stack is about to be applied, the damage from it is up 100% from the last one.

We had a similar issue in our raid group. If the tank was not topped off before the second OA on the tank, they would likely die unless a cooldown was used.

Which for people who don't rely on DBM can be a bit of a pain in the !@#.

In my opinion, they should add a cast bar for OA so tanks are effectively able to use CD's to help with the incoming damage when the second stack is being applied. Only reason I recommend this, is I don't believe we should have to install external sources to play to maximum potential.

I've never once installed DBM, however I'm considering doing so for the first time for this reason (and a few other timers would come in handy).
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
11/20/2012 12:51 AMPosted by Giibert
In my opinion, they should add a cast bar for OA so tanks are effectively able to use CD's to help with the incoming damage when the second stack is being applied. Only reason I recommend this, is I don't believe we should have to install external sources to play to maximum potential.


24 seconds left on your debuff with the default ui

and there's many more examples, boss mods are not only assumed, but Blizzard has said before that they flat out balance content around them.

Having DBM is just as important as gemming your gear.

11/20/2012 12:51 AMPosted by Giibert
I've never once installed DBM, however I'm considering doing so for the first time for this reason (and a few other timers would come in handy).


Boss timers have been pretty much a requirement for a lot of encounters, unless you have someone calling timers out, which is really inefficient, and pretty much does what you're against.
Edited by Postonforums on 11/20/2012 3:16 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11125
11/20/2012 03:14 AMPosted by Postonforums
In my opinion, they should add a cast bar for OA so tanks are effectively able to use CD's to help with the incoming damage when the second stack is being applied. Only reason I recommend this, is I don't believe we should have to install external sources to play to maximum potential.


24 seconds left on your debuff with the default ui

and there's many more examples, boss mods are not only assumed, but Blizzard has said before that they flat out balance content around them.

Having DBM is just as important as gemming your gear.

I've never once installed DBM, however I'm considering doing so for the first time for this reason (and a few other timers would come in handy).


Boss timers have been pretty much a requirement for a lot of encounters, unless you have someone calling timers out, which is really inefficient, and pretty much does what you're against.


You're my favorite poster on this forum
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100 Tauren Paladin
8390
I dunno about timers being all that required. I accidentally ran two raid nights with BigWigs off last week and it wasn't that bad. Didn't realize right away because stock UI warnings were going off on the stuff that I care about. Plus all the encounters seem to have these little hints for when stuff is about to happen - energy bars, alt power bars, boss emotes, adds dying, etc. For science, I kept my boss mod turned off the entire week and I didn't miss it much.

I think the only mechanic where I wanted my timers back was Maddening Shout. Maybe there are more such mechanics in hard mode but normals are pretty relaxed.

OP, your paladin could improve his reforges and your brewmaster has 3 missing enchants but if you always blame gear first you won't get very far. You didn't really know the fight well if you thought the second OAs were random one shots.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
WTB Logs =(

There's really not much "good" advice we can provide without logs. You seem to know what's going on, but it clearly doesn't "add up". I highly suggest you parse your attempts through World of Logs in the future so it's easier to determine these types of things.

My honest guess is that the tanks are:
1) Not topped off going into OA
2) Are not using adequate CD's for the 2nd OA strike
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90 Orc Warrior
11190
11/20/2012 03:14 AMPosted by Postonforums
In my opinion, they should add a cast bar for OA so tanks are effectively able to use CD's to help with the incoming damage when the second stack is being applied. Only reason I recommend this, is I don't believe we should have to install external sources to play to maximum potential.


24 seconds left on your debuff with the default ui

and there's many more examples, boss mods are not only assumed, but Blizzard has said before that they flat out balance content around them.

Having DBM is just as important as gemming your gear.

I've never once installed DBM, however I'm considering doing so for the first time for this reason (and a few other timers would come in handy).


Boss timers have been pretty much a requirement for a lot of encounters, unless you have someone calling timers out, which is really inefficient, and pretty much does what you're against.


I disagree with this somewhat.

While timers are great to have, they are in no way a requirement. From a person who steadily progressed in heroic DS, I never once seen the need in DS to install DBM. A lot of people claim they needed it for Ultraxion, which I could understand you might think you need it if that's what you're used to. However it is most definitely not needed.

I do think it would help, but I've been told I do exceptionally well (I think so as well) without DBM.

OA is the only thing I've seen so far where it would be useful (as a tank, mind you) where a timer would be necessary. However it's still not as important as geming your gear, as you say.

That's just my opinion on it. Some people live by DBM and can't seem to function properly in raids without it. I am not one of these people.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
11/20/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Giibert
From a person who steadily progressed in heroic DS,


September 9th 35% isnt steady
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90 Troll Priest
14820
While timers are great to have, they are in no way a requirement. From a person who steadily progressed in heroic DS, I never once seen the need in DS to install DBM. A lot of people claim they needed it for Ultraxion, which I could understand you might think you need it if that's what you're used to. However it is most definitely not needed.
.


September 9th 35% isnt steady


I do think it would help, but I've been told I do exceptionally well (I think so as well) without DBM


Hubris.

This is a matter of perception. Someone who has only ever killed 1 boss on normal is going to think someone is good at the game for killing 3.

The only thing you are doing is handicapping yourself, and your raid by not download DBM.

But i digress.

24 seconds on the debuff seems to be the consensus as to when to pop a CD ready for OA.
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90 Orc Warrior
11190
From a person who steadily progressed in heroic DS,


September 9th 35% isnt steady


It may not of been the best time to kill it, however it was definitely steady from when I started progressing in heroic DS. Not to mention progression relys a LOT on other people rather than just myself. I wasn't around all that often during Cata and that is when I first started playing the game.

I see no other need to argue the point. You need DBM to raid, I don't. If you turned DBM off and stopped relying on it, you'd see what I'm talking about. Otherwise, your opinions are just as biased as mine.
Edited by Giibert on 11/20/2012 9:31 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
11/20/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Giibert
It may not of been the best time to kill it, however it was definitely steady from when I started progressing in heroic DS. Not to mention progression relys a LOT on other people rather than just myself. I wasn't around all that often during Cata and that is when I first started playing the game.


Heroic DS at 35% was easier than normal was at 0.
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90 Troll Priest
14820
11/20/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Giibert
I see no other need to argue the point. You need DBM to raid, I don't. If you turned DBM off and stopped relying on it, you'd see what I'm talking about. Otherwise, your opinions are just as biased as mine.


No one "needs" it - raiding itself wouldn't fall apart if it didn't exist. You are just severely handicapping yourself, and everyone in your group by not using it.

Again, Hubris.

Also

11/20/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Giibert
It may not of been the best time to kill it, however it was definitely steady from when I started progressing in heroic DS


H DS was a joke with 0%-5% until you hit Ultrax/Blackhorn. Saying you progressed at 35% steadily as a valid point as to why you dont need DBM is like me saying "I did 10 man ICC with 10 level 85's without DBM, therefor, I are good raider!".

EDIT: Postonforums - I don't think there has ever been a thread where we have disagreed yet.
Edited by Kreeara on 11/20/2012 9:37 PM PST
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