The numbers are in... and its pretty sad guys

(Locked)

2 Orc Hunter
0
I did this back in Firelands and DS so I thought I would do the same now that we have some solid numbers to look into to.
Using 25 man heroic WOL parses as reported by raidbots.com and using the highest dps spec from each class for a total of 11. (what that means is if one class has 2 or more specs in the top 11 it is not counted, basically I use the top spec for each class so a total of 11 possible slots)

Spec score/ Top 100/ Max/ 2months

Mage: 1
Lock: 2
Rogue: 3
War: 4
Druid: 5
DK: 6
Monk: 7
Pally: 8
SPriest: 9
Sham: 10
Hunter: 11

Spec score/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

Spec score/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

Spec score/ All Parses/ Default/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

We can clearly see no matter how you put the settings in spec score hunters are dead last so lets look at Dps:

Dps/ Top 100/ Max/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

Dps/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

Dps/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

Dps/ All Parses/ Default/ 2 months
Hunter: 11

So I think that sums it up pretty well, last year I had some people say this information wasnt enough and I should look at the individual fights, so here we go... forgive me for the length but posting this now saves time later:

Dps/ Top 100/ Max/ 2 months

Stone Dogs: 11th
Feng:10th
Garajal:11th
Kings:10th
Elegon: 11th
Emp: 11th
Vizier: 9th
Bladelord: 6th
Garalon: 11th (only used 1 month due to the pet bug on legs being fixed a few weeks ago to get a more acurate number)
Windlord: 11th (this is the aoe fight that SV is supposed to excell at...)

Dps/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months

Stone Dogs: 11th
Feng: 11th
Garajal: 11th
Kings: 11th
Elegon: 11th
Emp: 11th
Vizier: 8th
Bladelord:7th
Garalon: 11th
Windlord: 11th

Dps/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months

Stone Dogs:11th
Feng:10th
Garajal: 9th
Kings: 7th
Elegon: 10th
Emp: 11th
Vizier: 5th
Bladelord: 10th
Garalon: 11th
Windlord: 11th

Dps/ All Parses/ Default/ 2 months

Stone Dogs: 11th
Feng: 10th
Garajal: 8th
Kings: 7th
Elegon: 11th
Emp: 10th
Vizier: 5th
Bladelord: 10th
Garalon: 11th
Windlord: 10th

In basically every scenerio according to the WOL parses posted, I do not see hunters "near the top" on any fight whatsoever as Ghostfailure said a few weeks ago, in point of fact I see what I saw back before we got buffed at the end of FL... hunters sucking the !@# end of 95% of the fights and average to low on one fight that allows the pet 100% uptime on a boss (Vizier)

Thoughts?
2 Orc Hunter
0
I have received many PM's asking about the deviation of the dps, or the difference from the top spot to where hunters rank in real raw numbers. I have put together the "standard deviation" numbers and they are as follows:

Hunter v/s top spec for each fight:

DPs/ Top 100/ Max/ 2months

Dogs: -160k (-49%)
Feng: -25k (-18%)
Garajal: -41k (-27%)
Spirit Kings: -39k (-30%)
Elegon: -55k (-23%)
Emp: -62k (-38%)
Vizier: -17k (-16%)
Bladelord: -15k (-15%)
Garalon: -70k (-37%)
Windlord: -151k (-30%)

Dps/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months

Dogs: -164k (-48%)
Feng: -24k (-17%)
Garajal: -70k (-27%)
Spirit Kings: -39k (-31%)
Elegon: -55k (-22%)
Emp: -62k (-37%)
Vizier: -18k (-15%)
Bladelord: -14k (-14%)
Garalon: -69k (-39%)
Windlord: -69k (-28%)

Dps/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months

Dogs: -70k (-39%)
Feng: -10k (-10%)
Garajal: -8k (-10%)
Spirit Kings: -7k (-9%)
Elegon: -26k (-16%)
Emp: -39k (-33%)
Vizier: -4k (-5%)
Bladelord: -7k (-9%)
Garalon: -47k (-33%)
Windlord: -74k (-23%)

Dps/ All Parses/ Default Measure/ 2 Months

Dogs: -79k (-40%)
Feng: -11k (-10%)
Garajal: -8k (-10%)
Spirit Kings: -6k (-9%)
Elegon: -27k (-16%)
Emp: -42k (-34%)
Vizier: -4k (-4%)
Bladelord: -5k (-9%)
Garalon: -46k (-33%)
Windlord: -80k (-25%)

So what does this all mean?
The way I see it is that the more skillfully your play and skilled players you play with, the worse you will do as a hunter in comparison to the other classes. The dps deviation is pretty insane at the top levels and comes down noticeable when you get to the "average and default raiders."

This does indeed make sense when you see people posting how good hunters are and they are lfr hero's or they are beating XYZ fire mage in the guild they are in...

Played by an average person hunters are still below where it should be but not by as much and the gear/skill level will allow them to beat out far lesser skilled or geared palyers, when you get equal skill and equal gear however... hunters clearly need some help.

* This was posted 2 days ago on MMO Champions and in the Hunter forums and I was asked to post it here and just got to it today.*

The 5% unannounced buff does much to alieviate the problems illustrated above for the AVERAGE raider. It does next to nothing for the progression raider or the very skilled raiders as 5% will not bridge the gap of 16% to 40% we see in the top numbers.

Thoughts?
90 Draenei Shaman
4355
11/28/2012 06:59 AMPosted by Mhmm
Thoughts?

Yes, two.

1) Top 100 is a tiny sample size and thus not pertinent to discussions about class balance. Use the all parses dataset. If you want to get strong players, use all parses at a high percentile, like the 90th. GC agrees with this, so I suggest you follow it when trying to make a case for your class to get buffs.

https://twitter.com/noblemuh/status/268396035037069312

2) You're using a dataset from the past 2 months. You can actually constrain to 1 month, but of course 5.1 has been out for one day.

Long story short, you need to give it at least one full week of raiding to record parses before coming to even the most preliminary conclusions.
2 Orc Hunter
0
1) Top 100 is a tiny sample size and thus not pertinent to discussions about class balance. Use the all parses dataset. If you want to get strong players, use all parses at a high percentile, like the 90th. GC agrees with this, so I suggest you follow it when trying to make a case for your class to get buffs.

https://twitter.com/noblemuh/status/268396035037069312

2) You're using a dataset from the past 2 months. You can actually constrain to 1 month, but of course 5.1 has been out for one day.


Are you high? No real disprespect but as you can clearly see if your not high... i used the entire spread of numbers... top 100/ all parses/ max/ average/ defualt/ everything you and every other hater could want because I have seen you Slant and many like you debunk numbers for years when the full spread isnt given and you dilute the conversations by doing this...

I specifically included the many different ways to look at them and the deviation because of people like you and you still have the temerity to come and do the same thing? Really?

Get over yourself a little please? If I had included 90 percentile you would of said 80 percentile would be the best... your just one of "those" people and we all know it from your years of posting.

Long story short, you need to give it at least one full week of raiding to record parses before coming to even the most preliminary conclusions.


Long story to short... this was put out before the undercover buff that came out last evening as stated in my post but I thank you for your information that it takes more than a week to get numbers...
its why i did 2 months (bigger sample size)... of course you said that was wrong too and I should only use 1 month... your just... wow I cant even begin to explain it.
Edited by Mhmm on 11/28/2012 7:46 AM PST
90 Dwarf Hunter
16330
11/28/2012 07:31 AMPosted by Slant
use all parses at a high percentile, like the 90th.

I assume you would want to use the 90th as that is where survival seems to be doing fairly well (in fifth place, WOW!). However, going above or below that to 95% or 80% we see survival drop down quite a bit. I don't know why that is but I think it is safe to assume that this "randomness" you mentioned is relevant in that situation as it's the only one where survival seems to be doing fine. Same thing happens in 25 man, survival is #1 for 80% and #2 for 75% but drops down to 12th for 70% and as low as 14th for 99%. This is all a 1 month time span using all parses on normal mode.

Not to mention, looking at the 25 man 90th percentile for overall dps, survival somehow comes in third, but looking at each individual fight survival is always near dead last and BM only does semi acceptable on a couple fights. Same thing for 10 man normal 90th percentile, survival somehow comes in 5th while they are near dead last on every single encounter.

I don't know how raidbots get's their averages but I can tell you that being 1st in overall dps for all fights and on the bottom of the list for overall fights for every individual encounter, something is messed up there.

Not to mention 10 man and 25 man heroic overall dps puts us dead last with survival and BM.

So as far as the last month goes, we are doing horrible and most players are trying to ignore it as well as GC.
90 Draenei Shaman
4355
Who cares about last month or (in the case of the OP) the last two months? Your class got lots of buffs in 5.1. Lets see how they turn out before going all crazy.
90 Dwarf Hunter
16330
11/28/2012 07:50 AMPosted by Slant
Who cares about last month or (in the case of the OP) the last two months? Your class got lots of buffs in 5.1. Lets see how they turn out before going all crazy.

Are you kidding me? Lots of buffs? You really are high. The most dps buffs we got was the 5% buff to hawk and a slight buff to damage while moving. That's it. We will see how much that 5% buff to damage helps us top the meters.
90 Goblin Warlock
9645
Anyone who thinks that hunters got significant buffs this last patch is not intelligent enough to be taken seriously in this thread.

The buffs to hunters in 5.1 are TINY. They are TINY. They barely matter.
2 Orc Hunter
0
Who cares about last month or (in the case of the OP) the last two months? Your class got lots of buffs in 5.1. Lets see how they turn out before going all crazy.


Clearly we do... and last month was yesterday... yes we got buffed and it will help the "average" raider be competetive and thats awesome, it does nothing for the skilled and progression raiders who are 15% to 40% behind on every fight...

I took your bait and did what you asked:

Dps/ All Parses/ 90th percentile/ 1 month

Dogs: 11th
Feng: 10th
Garajal: 10th
Kings: 11th
Elegon: 11th
Emp: 10th
Vizier: 8th
Bladelord: 10th
Garalon: 11th
Windlord: 10th

You want to change your criterial again Slant? Didnt think so... you of course got proven wrong like you have 100 other times and just like 100 other times you degenerate to:

Who cares about last month or (in the case of the OP) the last two months?


Classic Slant... when proven wrong just nullify the whole discussion by saying it doesnt matter... classic move, would of been good if you handnt done it 100 other times on a 100 other posts...

Just stop already, the more you post the worse you look. And thanks for derailing the thread... The one thing you do well!!
Edited by Mhmm on 11/28/2012 7:59 AM PST
2 Orc Hunter
0
This is all a 1 month time span using all parses on normal mode.


Spinn you are looking at normals, all my data comes from Heroic modes. Please do not let Slant sidetrack you or get you talking about things that are not part of the OP. Normal modes mean nothing in this conversation.

Thanks!
90 Worgen Hunter
8900

Taboo, saying 5% attack power and full movement doesn't matter is siily. They are substantial buffs. Are they enough to bring the class up to par? Too early to say.


1. 5% AP is miniscule
2. We could always dps on the move using Fox, but would lose a little AP while doing it. Not significant.
3. Our theoretical DPS went DOWN this patch. Granted, the numbers didn't factor in the AP buff, but that will not make up for the drop.
90 Troll Hunter
0
I love about the part about the buffs received.

11/28/2012 08:05 AMPosted by Slant
As for your data, all you're doing is proving that hunters needed buffs in 5.0. The devs agreed and substantially buffed the class. So... what are you upset about, exactly?


List our buffs then.

5% buff to Hawk. This is really the only major buff we got which is something like 2000 attack power. Though I have been hearing reports that TSA is bugged for us.

Cast while moving. How can anyone really consider this a substantial buff. Its more of a quality of life change. Everyone used macros before to bypass the whole movement issue and there isn't a whole lot of moving anyway.

Lynx Rush Change. Its not a buff as its been showing to be slightly nerfed plus its not easily stacked with CD's due to the duration.

Steady Focus duration increase. Ok maybe a small buff for MM which was our worse spec but is again a more quality of life change.

Careful Aim Change. Another buff for MM which again was our worse performing spec.

There was no major buffs for us.
90 Pandaren Hunter
10495
Ghostcrawler mention in his twitter account that there hasn't been enough information to see the MM spec performing badly in raids. I have a strong feeling the reason that is because hunters have figure out that the spec is worthless in a PVE environment.

The "Buffs" that hunters received didn't do anything to the current state of hunter in a PVE Environment. I feel that the stampede bug will forever haunt us for receiving a substantial buff until the next tier of raiding.

I would of been happy with a cobra shot and steady shot damage increase. At least it's a start for us having consistent damage after our burst.
Edited by Suddén on 11/28/2012 8:31 AM PST
2 Orc Hunter
0
Gosh, you sure are hostile to someone who came in simply asking you not to jump to conclusions with insufficient data.


Lol love the "passive aggressive" response... poor Slant got steam rolled and all she did was ask a small question... /head down shoulders slumped... /please be nice to me (in a tiny mouse voice)

What you did was try to debunk 2 months of data as "insufficient data"...
What you did was try to say I couldnt use top parses when I had already included all, max, average, and default...
What you did was try and say I needed to use what you feel was needed and claimed GC said so...
What you did was try and change things to fit what you wanted, I took your bait and you got proven wrong yet again with the data YOU said we should use to be complete...
What you did is what you always do, try and claim things are not what they actually are, and when your irrivocably proven wrong, you change the discussion or say "poor me"
What you did was overstep and go out on a limb and fall, like you always do...

I'd hate to see how you'd respond to the usual blizzard forums troll. Take a step back from the game and relax, dude.


What I need to do is exactly what I am doing, I am showing you for what you are and I am sick to death of you trying to say the numbers dont mean anything and you try and change the criteria everytime its proven that they do, then say they dont matter.

As for your data, all you're doing is proving that hunters needed buffs in 5.0. The devs agreed and substantially buffed the class. So... what are you upset about, exactly?


Im am not upset... I am just not going to let you slide this time like you have so many other times... you wrong, you have no idea what your talking about, and you rarely ever do. I think its past time you face that fact and leave posts alone that you have no clue about.

Taboo, saying 5% attack power and full movement doesn't matter is siily. They are substantial buffs. Are they enough to bring the class up to par? Too early to say.


Do the math... high end raiders are 15% to 40% behind... a 5% buff wont get it done, its not rocket science and it is not "too early" to tell. However, it will bring the average raider right where they need to be on non gimick/cleave fights.

You of course will say that the math is not in yet but any fool can add 5% to a wol parse and see what will happen... its not brain surgery and I honestly wish you would stop it. For the past year to year and a half you have come here doing this crap and I just wish you would stop.
You are wrong, you were wrong when you posted the "wait and see" when me and several other BETA testers got into this same discussion with you before launch. (funny how you werent in BETA and had no real numbers but you kept arguing!)
You were wrong back when hunters needed the buff that melee got from TSA and of course you said we didnt and the numbers didnt show we needed it. (but they did and we got buffed)

I could continue this litany of your wrong headedness but lets just stop and how about you staying out of posts dealing with math, common sense, and reality?

Thanks.
90 Gnome Warrior
9590
11/28/2012 08:42 AMPosted by Slant
You are terrible.


Well he owned you pretty hard.

To OP:
Wow that explains a lot. Nice post.
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