The numbers are in... and its pretty sad guys

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100 Worgen Hunter
13240
11/30/2012 07:15 AMPosted by Lazyguide
I just want to be an ezreal not a varus.
Varus is just so bad lol.

I prefer sivir though, lots of fun >.>.

I would say its not ideal for shaman and it shouldn't be ideal for hunters. As that is much more objective way of phrasing what you said. Like I said already I am all for hunters getting buffed but they do have utilitiy whether you agree with that utility or not doesn't really matter, its still there.
Thank you for rewording that, seems more reasonable. I still disagree however, because if everything is done optimally then the utility that hunters bring literally does nothing. I just feel the class needs a rework in some of its designs is all, change stuff around. I don't think that's going to happen any time soon however, considering the time to do that would have been in MoP beta >.<.


I wouldn't waste your time with Hiro. He thinks Mages are balanced because Frost is roughly on par with Hunter damage.
100 Troll Mage
17810
11/30/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Peverell
I wouldn't waste your time with Hiro. He thinks Mages are balanced because Frost is roughly on par with Hunter damage.


Where have I said that? I can't recall ever saying that with that type of reasoning.

This is the second time in this thread someone has said that I said something and when i asked for proof they were unable to give it.
90 Orc Hunter
0
11/30/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Peverell
I wouldn't waste your time with Hiro. He thinks Mages are balanced because Frost is roughly on par with Hunter damage.
Well. I've only started lurking these forums (normally at the hunter forums, sometimes story forums), however I try not to let past posts from someone get in the way of any line of reasoning about the current topic.

That's not to say that it I haven't let it get in the way before, because it has. But I'm going to try to avoid that, rather just see what people have to say on this issue and their line of reasoning / what they think should be done, if anything at all. I am pretty vocal about my thoughts on the hunter class, don't think that's changing any time soon either xD.

I appreciate your concern, but as long as I'm enjoying myself (and believe me, I'm never not enjoying myself on the forums :P), then my time is not wasted!
100 Troll Mage
17810
11/30/2012 08:06 AMPosted by Lazyguide
I wouldn't waste your time with Hiro. He thinks Mages are balanced because Frost is roughly on par with Hunter damage.
Well. I've only started lurking these forums (normally at the hunter forums, sometimes story forums), however I try not to let past posts from someone get in the way of any line of reasoning about the current topic.

That's not to say that it I haven't let it get in the way before, because it has. But I'm going to try to avoid that, rather just see what people have to say on this issue and their line of reasoning / what they think should be done, if anything at all. I am pretty vocal about my thoughts on the hunter class, don't think that's changing any time soon either xD.

I appreciate your concern, but as long as I'm enjoying myself (and believe me, I'm never not enjoying myself on the forums :P), then my time is not wasted!


And this post makes me happy since its nice knowing that you are enjoying yourself.

Personally I think a lot of things are made a bigger deal about than I think deserve and that has nothing to do with hunters or mages or any class. For example I have been trying to convince mages that the talents are great and not a bad thing. I love having discussion with people as long as they are respectful, which i think you have been in at least this thread which is all that really matters.
90 Orc Hunter
0
11/30/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Hiroran
Personally I think a lot of things are made a bigger deal about than I think deserve and that has nothing to do with hunters or mages or any class. For example I have been trying to convince mages that the talents are great and not a bad thing. I love having discussion with people as long as they are respectful, which i think you have been in at least this thread which is all that really matters.
The one thing I think is incredibly well done, whether it's intentional or not, is a hunter's ability to solo content at near or even better than blood DKS depending on the fight. It's pretty much the only thing I can bother myself to do competitively any more since raiding is meh to me atm (time constraints between school/work, hunter DPS being low + my thoughts on the issue that I've made known in the thread, etc), and the fact that all of my PVP buddies have pretty much stopped playing the game.

At least I can still solo well. Praise whatever you believe in for that! Also, thanks. I try to remain respectful, although sometimes my inner nerd screams at me at some of the things people post (not in this thread so much) and it shows sometimes >.>.
Edited by Lazyguide on 11/30/2012 8:30 AM PST
90 Night Elf Hunter
16385
Hunters bring one highly redundant buff (10% attack power) but can also choose to bring at no performance penalty between attack speed, crit, mastery, spell power, spell haste, sunder armor, stamina, stats, physical damage dealt, heroism, physical damage taken, a battle res, or spell damage taken.

This is a very, very good spot to be in for 10man content and challenge modes. And 10 man is completely relevant these days since 25man raiding is quickly dying.

If your particular guild raids 25man, which is highly unlikely but possible, all buffs will be redundant. But so what? Remember bring the player not the class. If you do competitive DPS and all the raidbuffs and debuffs are already covered, your guild should be happy to take you along.

Not bashing you Slant, but I want to respond as I actually think this is one oft eh worst things they could have done to hunters.

From a different hunter thread...

The "utility" that everyone is looking for to make hunters appealing for raids, is already there. This was Blizzards not-so genius idea of giving our pets class buffs to supplement missing buffs in an "incomplete" raid make-up. I said from day one when I saw that change that it would be a disaster. Nothing unique, nothing interesting... just a fill in the blank with X pet.

In all seriousness, I truly believe that when Blizz hears us say we lack utility, they think "actually you have the MOST utility of all the classes". However, given the current design where buffs are spread across so many specs, this "utility" is greatly diminished.

So... the problem now is that we DO NOT have "competitive DPS. THAT combined with my quote makes hunters much less appealing.

I agree 5% AP is a buff and will help I agree the numbers need to be reevaluated.

BUT, this is a very common theme for us. "Wait and see." Even when that is valid, it is very frustrating.
90 Night Elf Hunter
16385
The one thing I think is incredibly well done, whether it's intentional or not, is a hunter's ability to solo content at near or even better than blood DKS depending on the fight. It's pretty much the only thing I can bother myself to do competitively any more since raiding is meh to me atm (time constraints between school/work, hunter DPS being low + my thoughts on the issue that I've made known in the thread, etc), and the fact that all of my PVP buddies have pretty much stopped playing the game.

Shhhhh... next thing you know they will nerf this, because we will be the best class for Brawler's Guild content. Watch... it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
90 Orc Hunter
0
Shhhhh... next thing you know they will nerf this, because we will be the best class for Brawler's Guild content. Watch... it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Honestly, I'm pretty close to just cancelling my sub atm since I can't really play anyway atm. As much as I love the forums, if they did that I'd be done. I'd have 0 reason to keep playing at all and I'd be infuriated. What would I do for my youtube channel?!?! XD
100 Draenei Shaman
5440
Where have I said that? I can't recall ever saying that with that type of reasoning.

This is the second time in this thread someone has said that I said something and when i asked for proof they were unable to give it.

Heh. Get used to it. I don't even engage those people because they aren't arguing in good faith. They tend to be the same people that result to insults, also.

@Melix: Yes, it definitely is frustrating. And I agree that based on 5.0 numbers a 3.5% total performance buff will probably not be sufficient. But you can only form the most tentative conclusion there. Basing on 5.0 isn't valid, because lots of other specs were changed in 5.1 too. But nobody is saying wait forever, just until we have solid 5.1 data. Just until next week.
Edited by Slant on 11/30/2012 9:12 AM PST
100 Troll Mage
17810
Based on what I am seeing and hearing about fire mages and 5.1 we should probably be nerfed a bit. As it appears we are doing quite a bit more damage now.
70 Goblin Hunter
0
@OP, first off, using the sample size of Top100 is a poor comparison. You need to expand that to at least the Top90% as that smooths out the extreme outliers that you get in the Top100.

Secondly, I agree Hunters need a DPS buff.

Using raidbots data for the Top90%, I ran comparisons through Excel for every spec/class on the first 12 Heroic fights in the tier (H MSV + H HoF). Hunters ranks overall were BM at 18th, MM at 22nd, and Surv at 23. This ranking includes specs that do not have significant data for each fight receiving a negative impact of a score equal to that of the lowest DPS spec with enough parses (mostly effecting Arcane).

I'll sum up what I found and provide a link to the Excel Google Document where my work is. It's an .xlsb file for those who want to download and view it.

Overall Rank. Specialization Class. Average Rank for all 24 Fights (25H + 10H MSV and 25H + 10H HoF).
1. Fire Mage 3
2. Affliction Warlock 5.085
3. Fury Warrior 6.125
4. Demonology Warlock 7.125
5. Frost Death Knight 7.955
6. Feral Druid 9.045
7. Assassination Rogue 9.250
8. Unholy Death Knight 10.000
9. Combat Rogue 10.455
10. Retribution Paladin 11.335
11. Enhancement Shaman 11.460
12. Destruction Warlock 12.000
13. Windwalker Monk 12.040
14. Balance Druid 12.625
15. Shadow Priest 12.665
16. Arms Warrior 13.250
17. Elemental Shaman 14.670
18. Beast Mastery Hunter 14.875
19. Frost Mage 16.375
20. Subtlety Rogue 17.335
21. Arcane Mage 17.875
22. Marksmanship Hunter 18.290
23. Survival Hunter 19.205

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B__UoUqPB70ESVpzeDN1QmxVcTQ

If we look at the rank of the classes by their highest ranked DPS spec we get:

1. Mage
2. Warlock
3. Warrior
4. Death Knight
5. Druid
6. Rogue
7. Paladin
8. Shaman
9. Monk
10. Priest
11. Hunter

*Note: If any of my data / math is wrong, please let me know and I'll try to update it.
Edited by Skke on 11/30/2012 1:30 PM PST
90 Gnome Monk
7430
11/30/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Skke
*Note: If any of my data / math is wrong, please let me know and I'll try to update it.


What parameters did you use in obtaining that data? As has been mentioned before, WoL does NOT clear the rankings when a new patch is released so a lot of ranked parses are no longer valid due to hot-fixes and nerfs that have occurred since that ranking was achieved. The minimum time period on raidbots is 2 weeks which, at this point, still includes a significant amount of pre-5.1 data, also resulting in less than current data.

Until you filter out ALL pre-patch data from your analysis it doesn't accurately reflect the CURRENT state of the game. Arguing for buffs/nerfs based on outdated information isn't likely to convince anyone that you have a point.
70 Goblin Hunter
0
11/30/2012 04:03 PMPosted by Linnelle
What parameters did you use in obtaining that data? As has been mentioned before, WoL does NOT clear the rankings when a new patch is released so a lot of ranked parses are no longer valid due to hot-fixes and nerfs that have occurred since that ranking was achieved. The minimum time period on raidbots is 2 weeks which, at this point, still includes a significant amount of pre-5.1 data, also resulting in less than current data.


This is raidbots data for Overall DPS for All Parses for the Top90% over the past month (to allow 5.1 changes to have a larger influence) for all Heroic fights in both 25M and 10M for MSV and HoF.

This ranking includes specs that do not have significant data for each fight receiving a negative impact of a score equal to that of the lowest DPS spec with enough parses.

And yes I do agree that the data currently needs to be taken with a grain of salt until there's a complete influence from the changes from 5.1. However, judging by how miniscule some of the changes to classes were (Shadow Priests, for example), you can create some argument.
100 Dwarf Hunter
18585
Where have I said that? I can't recall ever saying that with that type of reasoning.

This is the second time in this thread someone has said that I said something and when i asked for proof they were unable to give it.

Heh. Get used to it. I don't even engage those people because they aren't arguing in good faith. They tend to be the same people that result to insults, also.

@Melix: Yes, it definitely is frustrating. And I agree that based on 5.0 numbers a 3.5% total performance buff will probably not be sufficient. But you can only form the most tentative conclusion there. Basing on 5.0 isn't valid, because lots of other specs were changed in 5.1 too. But nobody is saying wait forever, just until we have solid 5.1 data. Just until next week.


A week is not much to ask for, however I highly doubt those numbers will convince you. Even though you yourself put up that timeline.

As to the changes to the other classes, please expand on that which changes and to what classes in particular. For all the changes the other classes received there are far more reports of increased damage to other classes than damage reductions.
100 Dwarf Hunter
18585
11/30/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Melix
The one thing I think is incredibly well done, whether it's intentional or not, is a hunter's ability to solo content at near or even better than blood DKS depending on the fight. It's pretty much the only thing I can bother myself to do competitively any more since raiding is meh to me atm (time constraints between school/work, hunter DPS being low + my thoughts on the issue that I've made known in the thread, etc), and the fact that all of my PVP buddies have pretty much stopped playing the game.

Shhhhh... next thing you know they will nerf this, because we will be the best class for Brawler's Guild content. Watch... it wouldn't surprise me in the least.


I'm beginning to think they slipped a nerf somewhere in 5.1 to either growl or pet threat generation. Post patch I cant for the life of me keep more than 3 mobs on my pet at a time. Been having to use every trick in my bag not to die doing dailies when i get more than 3 mobs in a pull.
100 Tauren Paladin
17690
Also why does other class damage matter to hunters?
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Ego?

Anyway, OP, don't use top 100. It's stupid, and you're selecting for luck.
90 Orc Hunter
0
Ego?

Anyway, OP, don't use top 100. It's stupid, and you're selecting for luck.
That doesn't really change anything tbh. Take a look at Skke's work which is top 90%.
90 Gnome Monk
7430
11/30/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Darthsirak
Also why does other class damage matter to hunters?


Because, in the world of "bring the player, not the class" buff/utility homogenization, a class that is statistically significantly behind other classes performing the same role is a poor choice to fill a raid spot.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Mmm. Yeah, that looks a little more realistic.

Let's see how the 4.5% AP increase hotfix plays out - that only went live three days ago, so it won't be reflected in the vast majority of logs.
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