Why we need to see LFR boss status part 2

90 Gnome Priest
10490
11/29/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Kurannan
A much easier fix would be to offer a satchel like you do to tanks/heals in LFD if someone agrees to join an incomplete raid.


That'd be nice.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10260
11/29/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Kurannan
A much easier fix would be to offer a satchel like you do to tanks/heals in LFD if someone agrees to join an incomplete raid.


Then you'll have people dropping out of fresh raids. Not a solution.
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90 Gnome Warlock
1565
11/29/2012 06:15 PMPosted by Vixie
Your time in-game is worth exactly the same as the guy standing next to you and everyone on your realm and EVERYONE playing the game around the world


Never said it wasn't, but expecting me to spend 3+ times longer to do what I need to get done because of other people's deficiencies means that my time is being treated as if it is less valuable than that of the one who stands under Garalon every pull or the guy who eats Will's devastating attacks.
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90 Gnome Warlock
1565
11/29/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Shunli
Then you'll have people dropping out of fresh raids. Not a solution.


What the devil? No, that's not what would happen any more than it's what happened without the queue showing where people were.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6975
Honestly though -

"Well, I wanted a fresh queue (and maybe only have time for one) but I got a partially completed one and well, blizzard wants me to help then finish and then re-queue for the other bosses so I guess that's what I'm going to do!"

You really believe this is the prevalent attitude among the wow player base, do you?

Have you had a look at LFR chat logs? There's a lot of complaining about your "efficiency enhancing" change (from what I have seen and heard from friends) , and a lot of people simply not contributing, waiting for the wipe, so they can re-queue for the fresh run they wanted. And they are right to, because they were forced into something they previously had a choice in.

Also, why is it not okay that person A has to re-queue to finish because his LFR fell apart, but its okay for person B to have to re-queue because they HAD to join and help finish a partial run?

o.O
Edited by Addisyn on 11/29/2012 7:56 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8575
11/29/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Shunli
A much easier fix would be to offer a satchel like you do to tanks/heals in LFD if someone agrees to join an incomplete raid.


Then you'll have people dropping out of fresh raids. Not a solution.


No one would take a deserter buff from a fresh raid and sit for 30 minutes to maybe get an incomplete one just to get a bag. Hell they could just put an extra elder coin in it, maybe so you can roll on one of those bosses you may have already done.
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6 Blood Elf Warlock
0
Now this might be lightly off topic here, and if so i apologize, but the major thing this all boils down to is a risk and reward. Basic hedonistic calculas. People dont want to waste time with a large chance of getting nothing within the LFR loot system. Regardless of comming in with late bosses down or having to deal with the deserter debuff. To those who really do the debuff they are okay with it, it seems. So unless it changes to something serious, as in loss of vp or a account wide debuff etc. Then that wont change.

How can we look at this as something that while even failing or struggling with things like this but still make it enjoyable and, in the long run. Something worth doing? Change how the lfr loot system is lightly. Just tweak it slightly. Well maybe its not as slightly as im saying it should be. But here is what should happen, or atleast is a "make as many people happy as possible" way.

Make it so that if you A) dont get loot and/or B) dont use a coin - or dont have any, you get a special token that can be used when you have enough (say 7-10? maybe less or more?) and each instance has its own token that can be used. Making it 5 different tokens in your currency tab, no biggy doesnt take up room in inventory. Which reminds me, why are the point commision tokens taking up space now? make them tab currency! Anyways.

Using that currency system, where in which you get tokens, you can then use those tokens to purchase gear from that instance from those bosses that drop it. This makes alot of things easy for raiders of all types.

1) lets those of us who have multiple specs get gear for off specs or often used multi specs for raids that are important. Sometimes druids or pallies or even monks need ot switch specs to fill roles, to many melee, casters, etc. Which is almost impossible to do within the constraints of the lfr system now. This also lets people get that gear without hurting other players by needing on offspec gear when others need it. Though that really does not pertain to todays lfr system but it still is a nice idea.

2) This is the big one, It makes people feel like even though they are getting nothing but a daily quests worth of gold and then some, they are still getting something for the long run and feeling rewarded for it. This is what it should be, Rewarded for effort and hard work, Not just throwing craps at the mogushan temple casino or the terrace boulevard card tables. People will want to stay and do what they can because they feel rewarded and are more likly to be okay with doing 2/6 or 1/6 bosses because, even though they get stuck doing the que again they will feel rewarded more then just getting a sack of loser.

3) It generally makes the game feel more helpful. Why i say this? Well back in lfr in ds time era, and yes i know this is not for all people or servers, people actually shared loot and gear when it came down to it. Maybe i was a rare exception, mainly because of my multi spec classes, but i would roll on teir gear for offspec and if i got it and i was whispered or i saw someone who really had a bad peice of gea rin that slot (green or crappy blue) id give them that peice or use it to trade if that was possible. Yes some would say thats bade but in general it helps more people then someone just hoarding it and it spreads the loot and love around. Less gear being gotten that is the same, less feeling of wasting something you got only 3 of for another peice you got already. I remember helping a friend by trading for them to get them something from another person. That whole i need but want this comedy bit, was hilarious and fun.

4) there was a fourth reason here somewhere.. OH yes, less loot being wasted. THis means that there is less same loot or not needed loot being ded or vendored, which in the vendored case, was even more of an insult then a sack of loser because it sold for less then you got for the sack! Really! You couldnt give it to someone to de or even trade DE which would be a nice function to just trade an item in the will not be traded slot and let them de it for you there.

5) This is just brain storming here, maybe change how the coin is used, if you win with a coin make it show you a list of gear you could get and pick? its special to use a coin and its for lfr, not like its going to break the system. Its just another idea.

Now i understand this might be off topic, but this thread seems active and it would be nice to get some feed back on this to help solve alot of issues i see and bad feelings.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
11345
I haven't read all 26 + 2 pages of this so I don't know if its been said, but here's a possible solution.

If a player hasn't killed any bosses yet in the week, they are highly likely to get a fresh LFR.

If a player is 1/6 they get are likely to get a 1/6 raid or a 0/6 raid.

If a player is 2/6. They are likely to get a 2/6 raid to finish for the week.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10465
So what happens when I get placed in an in-progress raid, and then only need the first boss, but on subsequent queues am not lucky enough to get a fresh raid?

I either have to endlessly kill bosses that yield me no loot or take deserter?
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61 Pandaren Mage
10105
11/29/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Kurannan


Then you'll have people dropping out of fresh raids. Not a solution.


No one would take a deserter buff from a fresh raid and sit for 30 minutes to maybe get an incomplete one just to get a bag. Hell they could just put an extra elder coin in it, maybe so you can roll on one of those bosses you may have already done.


People do it now ALL THE TIME in 5-mans if they get an instance they don't like. People will drop from fresh raids if there is added incentive to join raids in progress.
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90 Orc Warrior
15040
11/29/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Shaolinaan
It's a cycle that will happen, Voron. As I said earlier, Player 1 gets into a 3/4 run. He kills the 4th boss, then queues up for another to kill the first 3 bosses. Player 1 has no use for the 4th boss since he will receive neither loot or gold, so he decides to leave. Player 2 is then brought into the raid for the 4th boss. Player 2 then kills the 4th boss, then queues up for the first 3 bosses. Rinse and repeat.


And as long as the cycle continues, everyone gets to kill each boss once. Why is that a problem?

There only a problem when the cycle breaks, e.g. player 2 requeues and gets another 3/4 run. I hope something is done about that. But when it doesn't break, what problem?


Yeah that sucks but it beats being in a fresh run where player one leaves at 2/4. You then sit in queue for 10-1hr hearing the queue pop but quickly denied for being 2/4.

I'd be surprised if I got 2 second halves in a row muchless 5. Really bizarre.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8575
To summarize, I think the BEST suggestion is if someone gets a raid in progress, and they accept AND kill a boss, they get an elder coin to be able to roll on that boss' loot table. Why do I feel this would work? Well, if someone is in a fresh raid and wilfully stays and does it, they are doing it most likely because they need loot on a boss or bosses in it. Therefore the major problem with forcing people into an LFR where they have already killed bosses in it is not a productive use of their playtime in the pursuit of goals which increase their gear level; however if you allow them to have an elder coin upon the previously looted boss' death, you are enticing them to stay and help and provide something that is useful to them and not wasting their play time.

So, they accept, the boss dies with their help, give em a coin and so on. Even in old LFR with the old loot system people would stay because the loot could be viewed and possibly traded.

Valor is ridiculously easy to earn and therefore not an incentive to spend an hour in a raid especially if that person is already valor capped for the week.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11395
So... I want to learn by doing the raid bosses but as heals I'll get dropped into a raid where the heals bailed. So if I want to see all the boss fights I have to do LFR with a fair sized group or expect "that guy" who has been shouting rude things at everyone to cooperate? I have to stay with the group who pulls time after time when I (and the other heals) don't have enough mana?
Were you guys the younger siblings ?... cuz this feels like I have to play nice with my baby brother.

Also with this patch..I have to work on my pvp set cuz well the dailies that I have to do every day have a big pvp component.

And I have to do a dungeon every day or many on one day to make up for not doing one every day to get my valor.

And as people who created an imaginary world with a goal that the environment and even the weather looks real should know...perception is a lot.

So my perception of having to do dailies for hours and to log in daily to do a dungeon and to run battlegrounds to get pvp gear to survive the horde is as real as the rain.

What I find odd is in Cata YOU posted saying that you did not want ppl to 'have' to log in daily to run dungeons but now we do??

For a game there's a lot of {perceived} "have to" items. And yes its been said in many a blue post we don't actually "have" to but isn't the point... We're suppose to perceive Azeroth to be 'real' ? Our perceptions 'make' this game. So why is our perception of what is to be done to succeed in this 'world' not valid?
Edited by Raana on 11/29/2012 8:42 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13275
Really, the only thing I want to know is what this was supposed to fix. I get that there's a lot of various changes, and I can usually figure out what they're meant to address, but I just don't get this one.
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90 Tauren Shaman
0
This is a continuation from http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7200302669 since it reached its limit.

By removing the status, you have managed to fix one problem only to create another problem for players, which is basically an endless cycle.

Here's an example:
Player 1 gets into a 3/4 run. They decide to join it, then down the 1 boss in there. After that, they then again queue to complete the other 3 bosses, then they leave before the raid goes to the 4th boss. Player 2 gets into there, he kills that one boss, then queues into another fresh run. He then leaves after the third boss is dead. Then Player 3 gets to go into a partial run, you get my point from here.

Yea this just keeps on going, and is highly inconvenient for players who have to wait for a longer duration of time to get into the raids since now we have to deal with two queues (it's really no fun just waiting around for the queue btw).


You're using theorycraft to form an objection. I would highly recommend that you actually test the experience first hand. Getting a guaranteed fresh run is HUGE. It was incredibly painful for me to get all my LFR bosses last week on my rogue. This week? It was complete breeze in comparison due to the fact that I could guarantee myself a fresh run.

Having said that, your whole model is assuming that everyone starts at 2/3 and then goes from there. That's not going to be the case for everyone. Some people will luck out and get fresh run right away, etc.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15700
Honestly at this point, the LFR change makes me not want to play alts, as that was mostly my only way to farm some gear and valor. This is one of the worst changes to the game right now. With the endless dailies and now the change to LFR, people will play less and less. I have to say this xpac is the least alt-friendly..
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90 Tauren Shaman
0
11/29/2012 09:03 PMPosted by Taramis
Honestly at this point, the LFR change makes me not want to play alts, as that was mostly my only way to farm some gear and valor. This is one of the worst changes to the game right now. With the endless dailies and now the change to LFR, people will play less and less. I have to say this xpac is the least alt-friendly..


Are you basing that on experience or just speculating? LFR was much easier for me on my rogue alt due to this change. Last week it was a constant game of waiting in a queue for 15+ minutes and then only to get a 1/3 or 2/3 pop. It took me about four attempts to get the first boss in MV. This week? My first queue was a 2/3. I finished it, and then got a fresh run on my next queue (which is now guaranteed if you finish a partial run previously).

So yeah. Actually try it out before crticizing. You may be surprised at the results.
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90 Tauren Shaman
0
11/29/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Verossa
Really, the only thing I want to know is what this was supposed to fix. I get that there's a lot of various changes, and I can usually figure out what they're meant to address, but I just don't get this one.


People now have an incentive to join partial runs, as they now know that the next queue after that will be a gauranteed fresh run. This is in contrast to getting a continuous chain of partial runs popping.
Edited by Gorganis on 11/29/2012 9:09 PM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
16555
HOWEVER, after I complete those remaining 1 or 2 bosses, is it selfish to expect a fresh raid next time I queue so that I can fairly kill the first 1 or 2 bosses that I haven't killed yet? I don't think this makes me "entitled" at all. After I help out that raid and then the next one I get is also 2/6 or 2/4... Well, my patience fades at that point. I port into the raid, see that I've already killed the remaining bosses and have NO chance at loot (or even gold) from any of them, so I want to port and hopefully get a fresh queue, but now I'm stuck waiting for the 30 minute buff to wear off? This makes no sense whatsoever.


This has never happened to me. Almost every LFR I join is 2/3, 3/4 etc. And on the next queue I always get a fresh one or rarely a 1/3.

I thought there was some logic in the queue-ing system that made sure you got put in on a boss you hadn't done before. If you keep getting put in a 2/3 even if you've finished the last boss and not the first two that's a problem and deserves a ticket.

And no leaving an LFR because you've already done the boss doesn't make you "entitled" or anything else for that matter. In fact it's a good thing because now someone else gets to join and have a shot at loot. There's no reason to feel the least bit bad about doing this and if anyone says otherwise just ignore them.
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