Enraged Regen, Second Wind, or Impending Vic

90 Orc Warrior
10025
12/01/2012 11:25 PMPosted by Ahanss
Sorry, but bringing up Sha of Fear lost you credibility when even in your low damage/high health example, he would be easily able to leapfrog your last 35% health with a thrash.


If you are at 35%? Sure. Now what if you're at about two thirds health?

You have 400K health. Sha hits you for 300K on Thrash (maybe you didn't have Shield Block up or something).

The next hit is going to place you in danger of death. You already screwed your timing on Shield Block, so obviously you're not a superstar. You can use a cooldown. That's totally valid. If you have IR or ER, maybe you use those. But the brilliant part about SW is that it doesn't require you to notice your health. It helps get you out of the danger zone quicker without you thinking about it.

I think a lot of players tend to overrate their own capacities. For a perfect player, perhaps IR is a clear choice on any content, but even then I'd doubt that. For most players, I think that IR will be more likely to provide a benefit.

I think if you're evaluating whether you should take the talent, you should ask yourself:

Do I ever die when Last Stand and Shield Wall are not on cooldown?

If you and your healers are good enough that you have not once wiped without all your CDs blown, then it's not a great talent for you, and maybe you could use the extra CD. I'd wager that most people asking this question aren't in that position, though.
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
Just wiped to Gara'jal's berserk. Second Wind procced 5 times, healing me for 75k total, and this is on a fight when healers are really really stressed because I've only got one on me for the most part.

12/01/2012 11:42 PMPosted by Zarko
It helps get you out of the danger zone quicker without you thinking about it.
See, this is the problem. SW is only better if you're not thinking about it, and if you're not thinking about it, you're not being the best tank you can be. Sure, ER might be on cooldown, but it'll get you out of the danger zone far, far more effectively and hell, half the time, far more often than SW. Same with IV.
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Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 12/1/2012 11:53 PM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
12/01/2012 11:52 PMPosted by Waniou
See, this is the problem. SW is only better if you're not thinking about it, and if you're not thinking about it, you're not being the best tank you can be.


This point of view is counterproductive in my opinion. If you drive a car with an automatic transmission, are you not being the best driver you can be?

People have a limited number of things they can keep track of at once. Why was Ardent Defender so powerful back in Wrath? Because it worked like Last Stand, but you couldn't ever screw it up. Keeping it automatic means that it always works.

You say you wiped on Gara'Jai's beserk. You would have wiped with SW or IV. None of these talents give a meaningful boost to survivability in current content by design. Now, let's grant your assumptions: that you would have been able to hit IV at exactly the moments when you needed it most. The only way IV would have been better would be if you fell below 35% three times or more on the fight, with each occurrence falling more than 30 seconds apart from each other (and you died with all CD's blown).

Have you ever died, on trash or on a boss, with your CD's still up? How often does it happen?
Edited by Zarko on 12/2/2012 12:09 AM PST
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
12/02/2012 12:07 AMPosted by Zarko
If you drive a car with an automatic transmission, are you not being the best driver you can be?
That's a terrible analogy.

People have a limited number of things they can keep track of at once. Why was Ardent Defender so powerful back in Wrath? Because it worked like Last Stand, but you couldn't ever screw it up. Keeping it automatic means that it always works.
Ardent Defender was so powerful because it was basically the same as an extra 20ish% (I can't remember exactly how much) EH at a time when EH was king and bosses hit us for 80% of our health in one hit with various moves.

You say you wiped on Gara'Jai's beserk. You would have wiped with SW or IV. None of these talents give a meaningful boost to survivability in current content by design. Now, let's grant your assumptions: that you would have been able to hit IV at exactly the moments when you needed it most. The only way IV would have been better would be if you fell below 35% three times or more on the fight, with each occurrence falling more than 30 seconds apart from each other (and you died with all CD's blown).
We wiped to berserk because dpsers were dying.

And who said I would've only hit IV at 35% or less health? As long as I'm below 90% health, IV will not overheal me. While I haven't specced IV (I usually use ER), I usually hit it when I'm below 50%-60% health, and I can usually hit it once every minute or minute and a half with very little of the healing going to overhealing.

EDIT: Pulled up a log from a few weeks back of another Gara'jal enrage wipe. I apparently hit Enraged Regeneration three times during the fight and it healed for 295k total, with 0% overhealing. So that's three lots of a just under 50k heal, plus a reasonable dot.

EDIT EDIT: Also, just so I'm entirely clear what you mean, by CDs being up, you mean them being available or them being on cooldown?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 12/2/2012 12:44 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
And who said I would've only hit IV at 35% or less health? As long as I'm below 90% health, IV will not overheal me. While I haven't specced IV (I usually use ER), I usually hit it when I'm below 50%-60% health, and I can usually hit it once every minute or minute and a half with very little of the healing going to overhealing.

EDIT: Pulled up a log from a few weeks back of another Gara'jal enrage wipe. I apparently hit Enraged Regeneration three times during the fight and it healed for 295k total, with 0% overhealing. So that's three lots of a just under 50k heal, plus a reasonable dot.


Using a self heal at 80% does not contribute to your survivability. If you hit IV every time it is available, regardless of situation, it does not contribute to you living. At the margins, all you can claim is that it saves healer mana. But when you die, are you dying because your healers all went oom?

Raw HPS is quite possibly the worst way to judge these talents. None of them make a difference on that end. If one of the options was a constant .34% tick of health every second, would you take that talent instead?


EDIT EDIT: Also, just so I'm entirely clear what you mean, by CDs being up, you mean them being available or them being on cooldown?


By them being available.
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
Using a self heal at 80% does not contribute to your survivability. If you hit IV every time it is available, regardless of situation, it does not contribute to you living. At the margins, all you can claim is that it saves healer mana. But when you die, are you dying because your healers all went oom?

Raw HPS is quite possibly the worst way to judge these talents. None of them make a difference on that end. If one of the options was a constant .34% tick of health every second, would you take that talent instead?
Who said anything about raw HPS? And also, I specifically said, I don't usually use them until I'm at about 50% health. Stop trying to straw man me.
By healing myself, that's healing that healers don't have to use on me. If I go from half health to 60% suddenly, that's less attention healers have to pay to me and more that healers can use on dpsers who are also taking damage from Jade Shards or Epicenter or Arcane Resonance or Voodoo Dolls or whatever.
By contrast, Second Wind is a relatively weaker dot, but more important, it only occurs at 35% health and when my health is that low, my healers are already being like "Oh crap, Waniou's about to die, quick, Flash Heal him!". Using intelligent use of IV or ER, I can help prevent myself getting that low and prevent healers from having to throw out panic heals.

And again, stop bringing up raw HPS. Nobody has mentioned raw HPS except you. I know it's a bad figure to go by which is why I'm not doing it. I'm looking at total healing done over the course of a fight, and the size of the chunks it comes in. Which is going to make a bigger effect on my survivability? A 50k heal, plus another 50k over 5 second HoT, three times in a fight, or a 14k instant heal 5 times in a fight? 14k is barely noticeable, it's what, roughly one or two ticks of a Renew (I genuinely am not entirely sure, my priest is only level 87).

12/02/2012 08:04 AMPosted by Zarko
By them being available.
Then yes, but I try avoid it as much as possible. I try to live by the rule of "If I die while my cooldowns are available, I'm failing as a tank and could've done more"
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Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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100 Human Paladin
14245
What Waniou, Demolition and Branar are arguing is basically that tanks should never die on 10 mans unless it was due to mechanics. However, we know that tanks do die beyond just mechanics. Only one of the talents in that tier gives you a decent chance to help with those kinds of deaths.


That strikes me as a bit of a straw man. I'm just arguing that the situations where Second Wind makes more of a difference than ER/IV would are infrequent and unusual, not that they're impossible. Sure, occasionally I die to straight melee swings because my healers are asleep at the wheel or are busy trying to clean up an unexpected mess that the DPSers have created AND I fail to use another cooldown (or my other cooldowns are blown already).

But as you've noted, it takes 7-10 melee swings to kill someone that way from full health on 10-man. That's a process that literally takes 15+ seconds once you account for active mitigation, avoidance and the like. That is a LONG time for your healers to take cleaning up a mess or spacing out, and it doesn't happen that often. Far more frequently I die to dangerous moments in the encounter, it's fairly obvious when those are coming, and they don't happen all that often.

Most of the time (and I stress, most of the time) picking Second Wind strikes me as being like a WotLK tank who was going for block rating and value on his gear because block was light-years better than other stats against Loatheb. Sure, that'll make Loatheb easier, but wouldn't you rather be more effective against Patchwerk, where tank survivability is far more likely to play a role in your raid's success or failure?

It's an imperfect analogy because obviously you can swap talents on a per fight basis. But I think that Patchwerk vs. Loatheb choice still takes place within encounters. If you have to pick between:

1) the talent that will give you a hand on the rare occasions when Tsulong's relatively weak melee swings threaten to end your life

and

2) the talent that will be available for every (or nearly every) dangerous Shadow Breath attack on the Night phase

I think it's probably better to go with (2).
Edited by Branar on 12/2/2012 8:58 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
12/02/2012 08:54 AMPosted by Branar
Far more frequently I die to dangerous moments in the encounter, it's fairly obvious when those are coming, and they don't happen all that often.


...

2) the talent that will be available for every (or nearly every) dangerous Shadow Breath attack on the Night phase

I think it's probably better to go with (2).


I think we can all agree that none of these talents make a huge impact on survivability, right? So the choice is between a weak cooldown or a weak passive effect. If you are in a situation where you readily die because you run out of cooldowns, then another cooldown, even if it's a weak one, will do you a greater benefit.

However, it's my assumption that most people aren't actually in that situation. Most of the time when tanks die on current content, in my limited experience, it's because of people !@#$ing up. You can't %^-* up SW.

Also, you're incorrect on your example. Lothaeb would be better for IV or ER and Patch would be better for SW. You would never need to hit 35% on Lothaeb, whereas on Patch, you dipped below 35% much more frequently than once every 30 seconds.

12/02/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Waniou
And again, stop bringing up raw HPS. Nobody has mentioned raw HPS except you. I know it's a bad figure to go by which is why I'm not doing it. I'm looking at total healing done over the course of a fight


Talking about total healing is almost indistinguishable from talking about HPS. The only change is that one adds a denominator. But, if you'd prefer, mentally edit all my posts above to replace HPS with total healing. It doesn't change the argument at all.

If you are dying because your healers run oom or because you run out of cooldowns to press, then IV or ER would be better talents for you. If you are dying because people screw up and forget to heal you, or you screw up and forget to use a CD, then SW is a better talent for you. I'm pretty sure, by the way, that in 10 man more people are in the latter category.
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100 Human Paladin
14245
12/02/2012 09:21 AMPosted by Zarko
If you are dying because people screw up and forget to heal you, or you screw up and forget to use a CD, then SW is a better talent for you. I'm pretty sure, by the way, that in 10 man more people are in the latter category.


I guess this is the heart of the disagreement. I'd fully agree that if you're dying most of the time with Shield Wall/Last Stand/etc unused, you should consider Second Wind. That strikes me as fairly intuitive - if you're already not using the buttons you have, why give yourself more buttons?

I'd just question whether that's really the case for most raiding tanks.
Edited by Branar on 12/2/2012 12:07 PM PST
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
See, that's the problem. The only way SW is better is if you don't want to hit your buttons. But, especially when us warriors have the most control over our survivability, that's a terrible reason to spec something. If you know how to press your buttons, IV and ER will almost always contribute more to keeping you alive. If you'd rather not, sure, go SW.

Inb4 my sig is missing
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
12/02/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Sparklefever
"You probably suck, so take SW" isn't really something one wants to recommend.


It has the benefit of being accurate. Most people who are tanking ten mans !@#$ up boss mechanics. Most tanks who are in LFR %^-* up cooldowns and abilities. That is most of the game. SW is unambiguously better than a button you never press.

90% of the advice in this forum should be, "Make sure you have debuffs up, don't stand in fire, face the boss away from the raid, and try to use your cooldowns when damaging abilities are coming." That's it. Everything else makes up a very small percent of your likelihood to succeed.

In a famous survey, 80% of the general public described themselves as an above average driver. What percent of the tanking forum would describe themselves as an above average tank?

12/02/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Waniou
If you know how to press your buttons, IV and ER will almost always contribute more to keeping you alive. If you'd rather not, sure, go SW.


And this is actually not true. One thing that I haven't bothered bringing up is that the ten rage you are spending on a heal, you could have instead spent on an absorb instead that would better contribute to your survivability.
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100 Pandaren Warrior
16305
And this is actually not true. One thing that I haven't bothered bringing up is that the ten rage you are spending on a heal, you could have instead spent on an absorb instead that would better contribute to your survivability.


ER is free
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
I'm genuinely curious (And yes, I'm aware it depends on your damage intake) but how much would a 10 rage Shield Barrier be (And yes, I'm well aware that that's not possible)

EDIT: Looking over logs, Enrage had an uptime of 46.4% on Gara'jal (Considering I'd have been taking it for a little over half the time, maybe 60% or so of the time, that's pretty nice), but for some reason, only about 7% on Feng. o_O I suppose he doesn't actually melee that much and spends a lot of time being like "LOOK AT MAH SPECIAL MOVES"
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 12/2/2012 6:30 PM PST
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
I don't tank much in the first phase (Because I'm too busy failing at reversal and by the time he's done casting epicentre, my other tank's stacks have usually dropped), but I usually use shield block a lot. I might've just been being a bit slack on that particular occasion.

EDIT: On the attempt before that on Feng, in which we wiped, Enrage had a 10% uptime, same with the next week. But yeah, Shield Block's uptime looks really low on that there too.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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100 Dwarf Warrior
13875
12/02/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Waniou
That's a terrible analogy.

It's a perfect analogy, because whether he means to or not, Zarko's highlighting unequivocal opinions that become party lines and then conventional wisdom through social pressure because most people don't want to be mobbed and ridiculed.

I mean, Blizzard finally goes the mile to offer playstyle-reflective choices in talents, and the first thing you guys do is try to scrub your posts for every trace of the subjunctive.
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90 Orc Warrior
10025
12/02/2012 09:08 PMPosted by Aedilhild
Zarko's highlighting unequivocal opinions that become party lines and then conventional wisdom through social pressure because most people don't want to be mobbed and ridiculed.


To be fair, my only beef with this particular scenario is that no one has actually done the work necessary to give the advice. If someone had worked out a model and presented data, I wouldn't be so contrary in this thread. And indeed, if the rule of thumb was: 10 mans it doesn't matter, for hard content, you'll need the extra CD, I wouldn't be !@#$%ing. I mind the blanket rule not supported by close examination of the needs of the petitioner.

Edit: that is to say: it's not that I'm opposed to unequivocal opinions, but I am opposed to unequivocal opinions that are not justified.

12/02/2012 09:08 PMPosted by Aedilhild
I mean, Blizzard finally goes the mile to offer playstyle-reflective choices in talents, and the first thing you guys do is try to scrub your posts for every trace of the subjunctive.


This is what's weird to me. There's like no trace of the dialectic. How did the consensus form? I've tried to look around on other sites, and I've not been able to trace when the consensus became: do not take SW.

Amusingly, SW was considered a large part of Arms' warriors' overpoweredness.
Edited by Zarko on 12/2/2012 10:13 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
3070
Thanks for the input everyone. Since I intend on soloing BWL for the Tier 2 Pally gear I'll use Second Wind for it. In terms of Heroics and such, I've already used both IV and ER. Personally I preferred ER, though IV had it's charm. It was just more handy having control over a HoT that made ER more preferable, especially in certain situations.

Anyhoo thanks for the responses. :)
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100 Draenei Warrior
15775
12/02/2012 09:08 PMPosted by Aedilhild
It's a perfect analogy, because whether he means to or not, Zarko's highlighting unequivocal opinions that become party lines and then conventional wisdom through social pressure because most people don't want to be mobbed and ridiculed.
I'm not sure how that relates to the analogy. The analogy is flawed because what an automatic transmission does for a car isn't at all like what Second Wind does for a warrior. It'd work if we were comparing, say, pre-MoP warriors (ie, very little active mitigation, basically all of it passive) to pre-MoP DKs (A lot of active mitigation, with less passive). Or comparing going mastery/hit/exp gearing (To strengthen active mitigation) to dodge/parry gearing (To strengthen passive mitigation).

12/02/2012 09:08 PMPosted by Aedilhild
I mean, Blizzard finally goes the mile to offer playstyle-reflective choices in talents, and the first thing you guys do is try to scrub your posts for every trace of the subjunctive.
Why do you think that's my goal? If Second Wind was a viable choice, I'd be all for it. The problem with it isn't just the fact that it's automatic, it's that it doesn't do very much. It heals for less than a tick of Rejuv when it goes off. If it worked more like, say, Will of the Necropolis (ie, automatically procs at low health for a reasonable heal, more like 10% or something with a 30 or so second ICD), that'd be a much more viable option and we wouldn't be bagging on it so much.
As much as Blizzard's intention is clear, they're not perfect and situations will arise when there are better or worse talents. Look at, say, our first tier. Most people agree that Warbringer is an inferior talent for PvE because stuns aren't as useful. Or in the last tier, Avatar's now just about the worst choice because it does less damage on a longer cooldown than Bloodrage and the only plus for it is that it breaks snares.

To be fair, my only beef with this particular scenario is that no one has actually done the work necessary to give the advice. If someone had worked out a model and presented data, I wouldn't be so contrary in this thread. And indeed, if the rule of thumb was: 10 mans it doesn't matter, for hard content, you'll need the extra CD, I wouldn't be !@#$%ing. I mind the blanket rule not supported by close examination of the needs of the petitioner.
What are you talking about? How much work do you want? I showed examples of how much it heals and how often from my own logs, and that isn't just me talking out of my butt, I do raid exclusively 10-mans with a pretty casual and not terribly progressed guild and we do have problems with tank damage. I'm not just saying "Hey, I think it's not great for 10 mans because I say so", I'm saying "Hey, I think it's not great for 10 mans because I've used it and tried it out and I didn't like it and felt considerably more squishy." Plus, Demo's given you math to show why it's not as useful as you say it is. What more do you need?

I realise it looks like we're just bullying Second Wind because we all want to be part of the cool club (Well, I kinda realise that) but that's not the situation at all. We're bullying Second Wind because we genuinely cannot see how it's better than the other two options for prot outside soloing and we're not just saying that just because, we're saying it because we have maths and experience backing us up.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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