This Actually Matters.

90 Troll Monk
9685
And the 'This' is levels.

I have had countless roleplayers (All of which were blood elves, ironically), who think that levels has nothing to do with roleplay, and I am here to refute that thought process with pure logic.

Here we go.

Why your level 50 cannot beat my level 90:

Let me start off by saying, I HATE RP dueling. I -hate- it. It always turns into a 'Nuh uh. I hit you' 'No you didn't, I dodged it!' 'Nuh-uh! You can't dodge my...super...mega...hyper...awesome...destroyer beam'. Unless it's in a controlled environment, as in we sort of have an idea of what we want, then I -HATE- RP dueling. If I have to determine a physical victor, I prefer to duel and let whoever wins...Win.

Here's the thing though. My character can probably take on 10-15 level 85 Jinyu in Pandaria. Does this fact matter? No. What -does- matter is that your character cannot. I am even willing to turn into the Obsidium Nightwing, let you mount up, fly you to the area (if I can), and watch you fight this mob.

My character is decently geared for its level, and even if it was in greens, the stats they give would make it so in a duel, your character would get -stomped-. But let's take away the stats. Let's just go full RP.

Your level 50 character cannot beat the mob that drops the item. Let's go another angle. Let's say your character is a trade baron and buys the item. Awesome! They can't equip it.

'So what? That's just a gameplay gimmick' you might be saying, and you know what? You're 70% right. The other 30% is pure logic. Do you remember how warrior have to wear mail till level 40, then they get their plate? Why notjust scale down plate stats to mail level, call it all plate, and let warriors wear that? Because it doesn't make any sense, that's why. Plate is heavy and stiff. It's hard to move in, and even harder to perform actual combat in. Your character has to reach level 40 to 'gain a mastery in it' so they can utilize plate. By this standard, all forms of armor require some sort of knowledge to be able to equip. All leather is not the same. There are different clasps and buckles. The material may be more stiff or lighter. It may be heavier. It's different, therefore your character needs to grow and adapt to be able to properly use it.

Experience? You mean those purple numbers?

Experience, also, matters. In game it is represented by purple numbers whenever you kill a mob or complete a quest. But it's also more than that. Here is a real life example: Let's say you have a family member who has been in the construction business for more than 20 years. If you and that family member were given the task to build a house within 4 months, that family member would -wreck- you. Is it because they were born with this talent? No. It's because they've been at it longer. They have Experience. A level 90 has seen more and done more than a level 50. It's just that simple.

My character has beaten Deathwing. I've gotten the achievement for it and everything. For roleplay sakes, however, since that is clearly far too epic of a task for him to have done alone (or even in a group of 10), I prefer to state that he's beaten a liutenant of Deathwing, likely a member of the Twilight Hammer. It's small, but it has its own merit, and it's something a level 50 could not do.

<Continued>
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90 Troll Monk
9685
But Roleplay is Roleplay. Levels shouldn't matter.

This is where you are wrong. Everything you do in World of Warcraft follows the theme of getting stronger. Whether you're grinding levels, grinding gear, grinding rep, grinding honor...It's all with a reason. You grind levels so you can do end game. You grind gear so you can beat that raid boss. You grind rep so you can get those items, vanity or not, that progress your character. You grind honor so you can buy the PvP gear to beat other players with. There is almost nothing you can do in WoW that doesn't progress your character.

That being said, why does your character deserve to beat mine? Why does your level 50, that you haven't put in as much time or effort, deserve to beat up a level 90?

How would you feel if you spent the time levelling your toon, you grinded the gear, you're doing dailies like it's a religion, and you're pulling top DPS because you -earned it-, but a level 10 says they can beat you because 'In RP, Levels don't matter'?

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I hope this message gets out and influences -SOMEONE- next time they think they're level 50 toon can beat a level 90. Don't get me wrong, don't let -any- player be a tyrant and boss your character around (Especially in a city, since you can just muscle up beside a guard and warn the agressor, and they should respect that, since they can't take on an entire city), but if you're picking a fight with a level 90 and you're a level 63 Blood Elf Monk (as it happened to me last night)? Reconsider your character for a second.
Edited by Zulatal on 12/3/2012 12:01 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
Plate is heavy and stiff. It's hard to move in, and even harder to perform actual combat in.


Well that's just blatantly wrong. Plate is actually lighter than mail, and allows better movement than mail as well. Now, jousting plate is something entirely different. Jousting plate is heavy, bulky and unwieldy - which is designed for maximum protection with no need for real movement, as your horse does all the work for you pretty much.

But combat plate would have been lighter, augmented by chainmail and leather and cloth, and allowed a knight more protection without much restriction to movement.

It's a common mistake, though, that plate is this unwieldy, heavy monstrosity, though.

Here is a real life example: Let's say you have a family member who has been in the construction business for more than 20 years. If you and that family member were given the task to build a house within 4 months, that family member would -wreck- you. Is it because they were born with this talent? No. It's because they've been at it longer.


Here is an in-character example: Let's say you and a player both play warriors. You're level 90 he's level 20. His character backstory is that he was a veteran of the First and Second Wars and has continued fighting to protect his home and the village he lives in since the end of the Second War. Your character is a twenty-something adventurer who has finally made it out of his village and into the world at large.

That level 20 would wreck your level 90 in a fight, because his character has had more experience than yours.

A level 90 has seen more and done more than a level 50. It's just that simple.


Not necessarily. It all depends on a person's backstory.

12/03/2012 11:39 AMPosted by Zulatal
It's small, but it has its own merit, and it's something a level 50 could not do.


They could. Silithus still exists.

That being said, why does your character deserve to beat mine? Why does your level 50, that you haven't put in as much time or effort, deserve to beat up a level 90?


Because roleplay is separated from the rest of the game as it is designed to take place in an arena where gear doesn't have these nice little green and white stats on it but has factors that would be realistic?

12/03/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Zulatal
How would you feel if you spent the time levelling your toon, you grinded the gear, you're doing dailies like it's a religion, and you're pulling top DPS because you -earned it-, but a level 10 says they can beat you because 'In RP, Levels don't matter'?


My character would ignore it?

Or a few of my characters would take the insult and fight them over it?

Honestly? Levels really do not matter in RP. Level is an in game effect and is something to have been proud of. But, really, with the amount of experience you can get from heirlooms alone, level isn't that big of a deal.

But, back onto 'why this beats that'... RP is divorced from the game because it utilizes the idea that the game is a real world and not a game. The person RPing a character who served in multiple wars throughout their life, but may be level 50, is going to have more combat experience than the level 90 RPing as a 27 year old fighter whose experience is primarily dealing with bandits.

Is this saying let any ol' person who is a low level have an equal chance of whoopin' !@# and takin' names? No. But the same goes for high levels.

You don't blanket all low level characters with the same judgement, you take each character's backstory into account and weigh it against yours and go from there. You look at how old the character is, you look at what they've said they accomplished and weigh it up against your age, your accomplishments and try to be unbiased when you determine the result.
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12/03/2012 12:44 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Plate is heavy and stiff. It's hard to move in, and even harder to perform actual combat in.


Well that's just blatantly wrong. Plate is actually lighter than mail, and allows better movement than mail as well. Now, jousting plate is something entirely different. Jousting plate is heavy, bulky and unwieldy - which is designed for maximum protection with no need for real movement, as your horse does all the work for you pretty much.

But combat plate would have been lighter, augmented by chainmail and leather and cloth, and allowed a knight more protection without much restriction to movement.

It's a common mistake, though, that plate is this unwieldy, heavy monstrosity, though.

Here is a real life example: Let's say you have a family member who has been in the construction business for more than 20 years. If you and that family member were given the task to build a house within 4 months, that family member would -wreck- you. Is it because they were born with this talent? No. It's because they've been at it longer.


Here is an in-character example: Let's say you and a player both play warriors. You're level 90 he's level 20. His character backstory is that he was a veteran of the First and Second Wars and has continued fighting to protect his home and the village he lives in since the end of the Second War. Your character is a twenty-something adventurer who has finally made it out of his village and into the world at large.

That level 20 would wreck your level 90 in a fight, because his character has had more experience than yours.

A level 90 has seen more and done more than a level 50. It's just that simple.


Not necessarily. It all depends on a person's backstory.

12/03/2012 11:39 AMPosted by Zulatal
It's small, but it has its own merit, and it's something a level 50 could not do.


They could. Silithus still exists.

That being said, why does your character deserve to beat mine? Why does your level 50, that you haven't put in as much time or effort, deserve to beat up a level 90?


Because roleplay is separated from the rest of the game as it is designed to take place in an arena where gear doesn't have these nice little green and white stats on it but has factors that would be realistic?

12/03/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Zulatal
How would you feel if you spent the time levelling your toon, you grinded the gear, you're doing dailies like it's a religion, and you're pulling top DPS because you -earned it-, but a level 10 says they can beat you because 'In RP, Levels don't matter'?


My character would ignore it?

Or a few of my characters would take the insult and fight them over it?

Honestly? Levels really do not matter in RP. Level is an in game effect and is something to have been proud of. But, really, with the amount of experience you can get from heirlooms alone, level isn't that big of a deal.

But, back onto 'why this beats that'... RP is divorced from the game because it utilizes the idea that the game is a real world and not a game. The person RPing a character who served in multiple wars throughout their life, but may be level 50, is going to have more combat experience than the level 90 RPing as a 27 year old fighter whose experience is primarily dealing with bandits.

Is this saying let any ol' person who is a low level have an equal chance of whoopin' !@# and takin' names? No. But the same goes for high levels.

You don't blanket all low level characters with the same judgement, you take each character's backstory into account and weigh it against yours and go from there. You look at how old the character is, you look at what they've said they accomplished and weigh it up against your age, your accomplishments and try to be unbiased when you determine the result.


Basically some people come from a table top RPG environment where RP is directly tied to progression. You unlock more powerful stuff as you put time and effort into the character. A level 20 D&D 3.x character is infinitely more powerful than a level 1 and the game was designed that way. You roleplay your character gaining strength and seeing things.

A lot of people see this is how WoW is or "should be" too. I tend to agree with the D&D philosophy, but whatever.
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90 Troll Shaman
9080
i actually agree with maoseitun here >.>

rp=/=game mechanics
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83 Blood Elf Warlock
9075
I have a level 90 warrior who's well trained but lacks experience against anything that isn't the mindless undead still roaming around the Plaguelands.

She's pretty much a pushover in a fight much of the time. Not that she has a habit of getting into RP fights that aren't sparring matches mind you.
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90 Human Warrior
8000
Oh boy...This old argument again. I used to be a strong supporter of the "levels = RP power" viewpoint that the OP has outlined but lately my stance has softened somewhat.

However, I think Maoseitun's justification is a little too simplified. By his reasoning, some jerk could just roll up a fresh warrior, level them to say lvl 10 or 20, make up some piss-poor half-assed backstory about how they fought in all these wars and battles and yada yada yada and therefore could beat the pants off any other character who's backstory didn't stack up regardless of their level.

I believe that if you want to RP a certain role, you should at the very least be prepared to back it up with commitment. Levels may not always equate directly with character strength or power but they do signify one's commitment to a character.

If you're going to take your little lvl 15 warrior and try to convince me that they could defeat Hadhan here in a fair fight you better have some pretty strong reasoning to back your claim (and no, saying "well *my character* fought in the Second and Third war!" doesn't cut it. Give me specific examples of battles they fought in, wounds they suffered, experiences they lived through, and lessons they learned and then we can talk...)

It really doesn't take that long to level these days, especially if you have heirlooms, RaF, or are playing a monk or DK. If you can't even be bothered to level your so-called "combat experienced" character past lvl 10, don't expect people to take you seriously when you claim you could wipe the floor with their lvl 70, 80, 90 characters.
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90 Worgen Druid
11330
Basically some people come from a table top RPG environment where RP is directly tied to progression. You unlock more powerful stuff as you put time and effort into the character. A level 20 D&D 3.x character is infinitely more powerful than a level 1 and the game was designed that way. You roleplay your character gaining strength and seeing things.

A lot of people see this is how WoW is or "should be" too. I tend to agree with the D&D philosophy, but whatever.


However, unlike in the Warcraft universe, that level 1 person isn't a veteran of wars. That level 1 is someone who is just starting out their character, like you were. This isn't D&D.

Now I will agree that levels should matter to an extent. A level one really shouldn't be a grizzled war veteran who's crushed an entire platoon of orcs single-handed. The character you play should be high enough level to do the things that you claim they can. Also, with levels they should evolve and grow (not some novice mage at 85).

Just my 2 copper.
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90 Human Death Knight
4840
I'm with Silverflame on this one

by teh way, when did you become a dwarf Silver o.O
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1 Human Rogue
0
However, unlike in the Warcraft universe, that level 1 person isn't a veteran of wars. That level 1 is someone who is just starting out their character, like you were. This isn't D&D.

Now I will agree that levels should matter to an extent. A level one really shouldn't be a grizzled war veteran who's crushed an entire platoon of orcs single-handed. The character you play should be high enough level to do the things that you claim they can. Also, with levels they should evolve and grow (not some novice mage at 85).

Just my 2 copper.


^

Level shouldn't be everything in RP, but levels should still have a bearing on RP in order to avoid the "my level one warrior is the most badass mofo that ever walked the earth and can stomp your level 90 demon hunter."
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/03/2012 02:15 PMPosted by Hadhan
However, I think Maoseitun's justification is a little too simplified. By his reasoning, some jerk could just roll up a fresh warrior, level them to say lvl 10 or 20, make up some piss-poor half-assed backstory about how they fought in all these wars and battles and yada yada yada and therefore could beat the pants off any other character who's backstory didn't stack up regardless of their level.


I failed in explaining it better - but yeah, the more detailed the backstory, the more believable and the more coherent - the more you should take said character seriously.

12/03/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Drewan
by teh way, when did you become a dwarf Silver o.O


Couple weeks ago.

Joined the winning race.
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90 Human Death Knight
4840
However, I think Maoseitun's justification is a little too simplified. By his reasoning, some jerk could just roll up a fresh warrior, level them to say lvl 10 or 20, make up some piss-poor half-assed backstory about how they fought in all these wars and battles and yada yada yada and therefore could beat the pants off any other character who's backstory didn't stack up regardless of their level.


I failed in explaining it better - but yeah, the more detailed the backstory, the more believable and the more coherent - the more you should take said character seriously.

by teh way, when did you become a dwarf Silver o.O


Couple weeks ago.

Joined the winning race.


Wish my dwarf was on MG and not on WrA so I could say hi :P

..remember me (waaay back in the day, human warrior named Karnoshan, you were in a Southshore guild with us :P )
Edited by Drewan on 12/3/2012 3:12 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
..remember me (waaay back in the day, human warriro named Karnoshan, you were in a Southshore guild with us :P )


Yup.

I'm still upset I lost my tower.
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90 Worgen Druid
11330
Wait... Hallinton is agreeing with me? The world must be coming to an end.

Seriously though, don't judge based solely on backstory. They could have just watched (or rp'd with) other people for a long time and copied someone else's with a few tweaks.
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89 Human Paladin
9115
I'm on the team of "levels don't matter" and the only reason I'm going to go so far as to say "levels don't matter at all" is because -- at least on my server -- we have had some people with toons who did nothing but roleplay with them.

Do you know how many levels they gained doing that? None. Do you know why? Because roleplay is not tied to game mechanics.

These players were totally dedicated to these characters. But they did not level. You can be absolutely dedicated to your RP toon and it won't level you up even the slightest bit. And you can play your character daily for six years and it won't have leveled you at all. And someone can roll a toon and power level them to 90 in four days -- and you're going to tell me that the level 90 can beat the other toon, no matter what their back stories are?

Sorry. I'm not buying this.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/03/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Tyranthite
Seriously though, don't judge based solely on backstory. They could have just watched (or rp'd with) other people for a long time and copied someone else's with a few tweaks.


So do I need to start asking peoples' iLvl before I start RPing with them? And what achievements they got?

I need to know if they're too good for my RP or if I'm not good enough >_>

But in all seriousness...

Level shouldn't matter in RP, especially when you do something like:

12/03/2012 02:18 PMPosted by Tyranthite
Also, with levels they should evolve and grow (not some novice mage at 85).


That.

Why should they not be allowed to RP a novice mage at 85 or 90?

Maybe that's the character they want to RP, a novice mage who never goes beyond to become an Archmage, or even a full-fledged mage.

Or what about the person who is a level 90 warrior RPing as a bread merchant? Should they suddenly be able to whoop someone who is a level 60 warrior, who actually RPs a warrior, based on the fact they're a level 90?

Or are they not allowed to play a bread merchant now?
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90 Worgen Warrior
8980
Now, im not saying levels is everything, but still it matters.

You're NOT going to be level 1 wearing a full set of Plate Gear, weilding an axe you got from some Commander of the undead and beat a level 90.

Period.

But a level 30, yeah i could see some leneiancy towards letting the lower level win.

Hallinton is right(as always) Level matters somewhat, but RP isn;t always about actual progression.
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70 Human Paladin
11690
I think it is important to put effort and time into all aspects of your RP character; backstory, development, presentation (transmog, MRP, etc.,) and yes even leveling. Does this mean that you have to be level capped to RP an experienced character? Of course not. But leveling is mind-numbingly easy now and if someone can't be bothered to invest the hour or two it takes to reach lvl 20 or so, I can't help but wonder how committed they are to the character.

I'm also completely against the idea that high level characters must be experienced ICly. If someone wants to play a novice priest, why should they have to re-roll instead of using their lvl 90?
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85 Night Elf Druid
5625
Not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I know a lot of ppl post on like bank alts and what not, so should lvl matter for them, or are ppl required to post on the character they are rping, and what if they don't have an in game character they rp on the forums. Lvls should not matter a whole lot imo, but I am not a fan of RP PvP anyway, too much unneccessary drama could happen. Or are we talking about in game rp if so ignore this post:P
Edited by Sammuroth on 12/3/2012 6:27 PM PST
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90 Troll Warlock
12330
A level 90 Scorpid from the Dread Wastes could kill a level 60 Ragnaros.

Level means nothing.
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