Elegon and 5.1

100 Pandaren Monk
15995
My group has been clearing Elegon for a few weeks now, and each time I ended the fight on fumes. Today however, I was hitting almost nothing by the first transition just trying to keep up with heavy aoe damage. I know some of that could be cleaned up, but even cleared perfectly, the spark damage is a serious threat to whatever I have left.

Between adds pulsing/detonating, I'm mostly keeking RM up on cooldown, dispelling closed circuit, and CJL to take advantage of 50% heal/damage which translates to 30k healing ticks. Chi is either dumped into tanks or dangerously low members with EM or used in uplift. For the pulsing and detonates, I'm pretty much forced to SCK with jade wind and uplift dump.

With all this, I still can't seem to keep up without the occasional SM save on low members, which in turn is murdering my mana even faster.

Any advice or tricks to keep me afloat?
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90 Human Monk
6980
5.1 hotfixes done today
Mistweaver

The mana costs of Jab, Spinning Crane Kick, Soothing Mist, Crackling Jade Lightning, and Renewing Mists have been increased by 30%.
Soothing Mist and Crackling Jade Lightning now have a 30% chance to generate Chi when they deal damage (was 35%).

this should explain why you are running out of mana, if you figure out a way of healing feel free to share because i seriously have no clue how im going to heal in arenas anymore...
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100 Blood Elf Monk
12980
If you're primarily doing ReM/Uplift-based healing, you should be meleeing the boss while keeping 2 stacks of SZ up. A BoK that adds 30s of 2/2SZ (ie don't spam it or hit it when SZ is still pretty high) is more healing for a single GCD than any other button you have other than your 3 minute CDs, and that's before you start dealing with damage multipliers like you have in this fight. CJL is pretty much only used for Eminence when you can't melee the target for whatever reason.

RJW only beats the healing of a single chi burst if you chain-cast SCK for the entire duration of the buff, which you're not going to be doing outside of the last phase in that fight, so it's not even worth the chi to cast it period for adds popping, let alone worth dropping Xuen. Xuen also pulls ahead by virtue of benefiting from the damage multiplier.

Pop Xuen in the early/mid part of transition phases, making sure to re-place your statue on the side you're supposed to be covering (I keep it in the center for normal phase, but I suppose that really depends on your raid's positioning.) Make sure you're sitting on 4 chi for Uplift when things start popping. Revival when things look particularly scary. Otherwise just maintain SZ and punch the boss.

Also, 2% mana does not at any remotely realistic level of mana tea usage beat 432 spriit, so you should swap your meta to revitalizing. Reforging up to the 3145 haste BP for another ReM tick might also help you out a bit.
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90 Pandaren Monk
14030
I think Suzushiirou pretty much has covered how to handle elegon post 5.1, I would just like to add that everything we are going through with these class changed is pushing us towards single target healing more and more, the extra 30% mana cost of SCK has pretty much wiped out last ditch effort at a decent AoE output for longer periods of time.

Eminence seems too be taking over on most fights, and our tank healing is a lot more viable with the changes to Soothing mist + 2pc 4pc bonus.

We're in a tough place right now as healers, but I feel like we can still do this...
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100 Pandaren Monk
15995
If you're primarily doing ReM/Uplift-based healing, you should be meleeing the boss while keeping 2 stacks of SZ up. A BoK that adds 30s of 2/2SZ (ie don't spam it or hit it when SZ is still pretty high) is more healing for a single GCD than any other button you have other than your 3 minute CDs, and that's before you start dealing with damage multipliers like you have in this fight. CJL is pretty much only used for Eminence when you can't melee the target for whatever reason.

RJW only beats the healing of a single chi burst if you chain-cast SCK for the entire duration of the buff, which you're not going to be doing outside of the last phase in that fight, so it's not even worth the chi to cast it period for adds popping, let alone worth dropping Xuen. Xuen also pulls ahead by virtue of benefiting from the damage multiplier.

Pop Xuen in the early/mid part of transition phases, making sure to re-place your statue on the side you're supposed to be covering (I keep it in the center for normal phase, but I suppose that really depends on your raid's positioning.) Make sure you're sitting on 4 chi for Uplift when things start popping. Revival when things look particularly scary. Otherwise just maintain SZ and punch the boss.

Also, 2% mana does not at any remotely realistic level of mana tea usage beat 432 spriit, so you should swap your meta to revitalizing. Reforging up to the 3145 haste BP for another ReM tick might also help you out a bit.


Thanks, until now I've basically ignored fiswtweaving and damage->heal in general on 2 heal damage intense fights. That and reminding me I've still got the wrong meta. It keeps slipping.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11210
Problem with fistweaving Elegon is A) Jab got nerfed too, B) Stack reset issues.

On the stacks, you can either stay on the boss with your statue dropped near the ranged group and roll out and back in every 30 seconds (which still burns several seconds of uptime, which means less healing), or you fistweave the adds with your statue dropped under the boss to keep him healed, in which case you have downtime between adds and you have to replace your statue 3 times during the fight (yay 27k mana a cast...), killing part of your mana efficiency.

----- THEORYCRAFTING INCOMING, RUN IF YOU HATE MATH -----

On a side note, BoK "costs", in effect, 23400 mana (2 Jabs), plus the healing you would have done with that 2 Chi. In exchange, you get the damage from Blackout Kick and the next ~28 seconds of autoattacks as Eminence healing.

On my last Elegon kill, my autoattacks were hitting for about 22k non-crit on the platform. Raid-buffed, I have a 2.03 second swing timer with my mace. In 28 seconds, I get off 13.8 auto-attacks. Thus the Zeal portion of BoK is worth about 303600k healing. BoK itself hits for around 43k, so the total is about 415920 healing for 2 Chi.

Now that's pretty impressive. But what am I losing? I'm losing 100% of my Soothing heals (can't autoattack while Soothing, so channeling Soothing kills the benefit of Zeal). I'm losing most of my Enveloping Mist usage, as that requires either a 2 second hardcast (no auto-attacks) or Soothing (also no auto-attacks). I can still use Uplift, Chi Burst, and further melee healing abilities, though.

Both Uplift and Chi Burst are largely useless outside of the explosions on that fight, however, as there isn't a raid pulse AoE (except for the pillar phase, which is irrelevant for this calculations (can't fistweave the boss during it), and the final burn, where fistweaving is simply insufficient). The only raid damage is from Short Circuit, and Uplift and Chi Burst aren't too useful or efficient on those. It's really only the tanks taking damage.

So that leaves me with further melee abilities. Tiger Palm heals for around 20000 on the platform for 1 Chi. Blackout Kick is 52k (ignoring Zeal since it's factored in above) for 2 (26k per chi). In comparison, Enveloping is about 160k for 3 chi (53k per chi).

So let's compare. Let's say you're Jabbing for Chi, using Tiger Palm every 20 seconds for the buff, and BoK as filler. BoK is a 3 second cycle (Jab Jab BoK), Tiger's Palm takes 2 (Jab TP). Let's assume, however, that you also have Power Strikes. Thus Tiger's Palm is effectively free, as it replaces a Jab every 20 seconds, but you also generate an extra chi every 20 seconds on Jab. Thus in 1 minute, you get off 3 Tiger Palms, 37 Jabs, and 20 BoKs, plus 29.6 auto attacks (assuming my gear).

In that 60 seconds, you've healed for 3 * 20000 (TP) + 37 * 11000 (Jab) + 20 * 52000 (BoK) + 29.6 * 26500 (autoattacks) = ~2.3 million. That's about 38k HPS. In exchange, you've cost yourself 37 * 11700 = 432900 mana, or 5.31 HPM (though you *have* generated 10 stacks of Mana Tea).

Now let's supposed instead you are channeling nothing but Soothing Mist, casting Enveloping any time you have 3+ Chi and the tank has no more than 1 tick remaining on it. I ran a sim for EJ yesterday to calculate Enveloping uptime during Soothing spam. On average, assuming Ascension and 7 ticks per Enveloping, you have right at 70% uptime on the HoT, with almost no chi waste from overcapping (only 0.55% is wasted, about 0.12 chi per minute). In my gear (and with raid buffs), Soothing ticks every 0.86 seconds for about 8700. Enveloping ticks for about 22500. In 60 seconds, I'd get in 70 ticks of Soothing, and 70% of those (49/70) would be amplified by Enveloping (and also have Enveloping's healing occur). Thus my total healing is 8700 * 21 (base Soothing) + 49 * 8700 * 1.3 (EM boosted) + 49 * 22500 (EM itself) = 1.84 million healing (30.5k HPS), at a cost of 70 * 2831 = 198170 mana, for an HPM of 9.29 (offset by 6 Mana Tea stacks, normalized for Ascension).

So fistweaving is about 25% more HPS, but Soothing very nearly twice as mana efficient, even accounting for the differing mana tea stacks!

Now let's considering Crackling Jade Lightning. On that same Elegon kill, CJL was ticking for 34000 damage per tick on the platform with the same tick scaling as Soothing (0.86 seconds per tick). Let's assume we're using CJL instead of Soothing, and hardcasting Enveloping when we get 3 Chi. Hardcasting Enveloping takes precisely 2 ticks of CJL. CJL generates chi at the same rate as Soothing, so we can use the above estimates again. That's 56 ticks of CJL (70 minus 2 ticks for each of 7 Enveloping casts), plus 49 ticks of Enveloping, in one minute. Total is 56 * 40800 (CJL) + 49 * 22500 (EM) = 2.98 million healing (49.5k HPS)! This comes at the cost of 56 * 4719 = 264264 mana, for an HPM of 11.28 (same Mana Tea stacks as Soothing model as well)!

So CJL spam with hardcast Envelopings is 30% higher HPS and 113% higher HPM than Fistweaving, and 62% higher HPS and 21% higher HPM than Soothing spam.

So how, again, is Fistweaving superior to CJL on Elegon? Why again is it a bad ability?

CJL also allows you more control over the Eminence healing zone. Since Eminence's healing radius is centered on you rather than your DPS target (unlike Atonement), you can position yourself in the middle of the ranged group and heal them for all of your Eminence. On Elegon, I've found that dropping my statue right under the boss and standing with the ranged right on the edge works wonders. CJL splits the healing from each tick between the Elegon tank (or the melee group, if they are on the boss and damaged) and the ranged group, which generally also includes the add tank. Via this, CJL functions as a tank heal that splits between the two tanks until the add explodes, after which it functions as a smart patch heal on both the melee and the ranged group for topping people off that didn't get to max HP from the AoE healing post-explosion.

The really amusing part is, CJL even does more DPS than fistweaving.

As an appendix, on a non-Elegon encounter, CJL's healing is about 28% higher than Soothing's and about 54% higher than Fistweaving's. HPM, CJL is about 4.3% lower than Soothing's and about 151% higher than Fistweaving's. It's pretty much the go-to spell even without damage boosts.

TL;DR: CJL is universally superior to Fistweaving, regardless of circumstance. It both heals more per second AND more per mana. On any fight with a damage buff, it's superior to Soothing in both HPS and HPM, and even without a damage buff is superior in HPS and only slightly inferior in HPM.
Edited by Daerien on 12/2/2012 1:09 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
8130
Or you could still use your chi on EnvM with jab and not spam it endlessly to go oom?

Or you could healing sphere.

Fistweaving is generating chi with jab then spending it on chi things, not spamming BK or TP.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
Problem with fistweaving Elegon is A) Jab got nerfed too, B) Stack reset issues.

On the stacks, you can either stay on the boss with your statue dropped near the ranged group and roll out and back in every 30 seconds (which still burns several seconds of uptime, which means less healing), or you fistweave the adds with your statue dropped under the boss to keep him healed, in which case you have downtime between adds and you have to replace your statue 3 times during the fight (yay 27k mana a cast...), killing part of your mana efficiency.

----- THEORYCRAFTING INCOMING, RUN IF YOU HATE MATH -----

On a side note, BoK "costs", in effect, 23400 mana (2 Jabs), plus the healing you would have done with that 2 Chi. In exchange, you get the damage from Blackout Kick and the next ~28 seconds of autoattacks as Eminence healing.

On my last Elegon kill, my autoattacks were hitting for about 22k non-crit on the platform. Raid-buffed, I have a 2.03 second swing timer with my mace. In 28 seconds, I get off 13.8 auto-attacks. Thus the Zeal portion of BoK is worth about 303600k healing. BoK itself hits for around 43k, so the total is about 415920 healing for 2 Chi.

Now that's pretty impressive. But what am I losing? I'm losing 100% of my Soothing heals (can't autoattack while Soothing, so channeling Soothing kills the benefit of Zeal). I'm losing most of my Enveloping Mist usage, as that requires either a 2 second hardcast (no auto-attacks) or Soothing (also no auto-attacks). I can still use Uplift, Chi Burst, and further melee healing abilities, though.

Both Uplift and Chi Burst are largely useless outside of the explosions on that fight, however, as there isn't a raid pulse AoE (except for the pillar phase, which is irrelevant for this calculations (can't fistweave the boss during it), and the final burn, where fistweaving is simply insufficient). The only raid damage is from Short Circuit, and Uplift and Chi Burst aren't too useful or efficient on those. It's really only the tanks taking damage.

So that leaves me with further melee abilities. Tiger Palm heals for around 20000 on the platform for 1 Chi. Blackout Kick is 52k (ignoring Zeal since it's factored in above) for 2 (26k per chi). In comparison, Enveloping is about 160k for 3 chi (53k per chi).

So let's compare. Let's say you're Jabbing for Chi, using Tiger Palm every 20 seconds for the buff, and BoK as filler. BoK is a 3 second cycle (Jab Jab BoK), Tiger's Palm takes 2 (Jab TP). Let's assume, however, that you also have Power Strikes. Thus Tiger's Palm is effectively free, as it replaces a Jab every 20 seconds, but you also generate an extra chi every 20 seconds on Jab. Thus in 1 minute, you get off 3 Tiger Palms, 37 Jabs, and 20 BoKs, plus 29.6 auto attacks (assuming my gear).

In that 60 seconds, you've healed for 3 * 20000 (TP) + 37 * 11000 (Jab) + 20 * 52000 (BoK) + 29.6 * 26500 (autoattacks) = ~2.3 million. That's about 38k HPS. In exchange, you've cost yourself 37 * 11700 = 432900 mana, or 5.31 HPM (though you *have* generated 10 stacks of Mana Tea).

Now let's supposed instead you are channeling nothing but Soothing Mist, casting Enveloping any time you have 3+ Chi and the tank has no more than 1 tick remaining on it. I ran a sim for EJ yesterday to calculate Enveloping uptime during Soothing spam. On average, assuming Ascension and 7 ticks per Enveloping, you have right at 70% uptime on the HoT, with almost no chi waste from overcapping (only 0.55% is wasted, about 0.12 chi per minute). In my gear (and with raid buffs), Soothing ticks every 0.86 seconds for about 8700. Enveloping ticks for about 22500. In 60 seconds, I'd get in 70 ticks of Soothing, and 70% of those (49/70) would be amplified by Enveloping (and also have Enveloping's healing occur). Thus my total healing is 8700 * 21 (base Soothing) + 49 * 8700 * 1.3 (EM boosted) + 49 * 22500 (EM itself) = 1.84 million healing (30.5k HPS), at a cost of 70 * 2831 = 198170 mana, for an HPM of 9.29 (offset by 6 Mana Tea stacks, normalized for Ascension).

So fistweaving is about 25% more HPS, but Soothing very nearly twice as mana efficient, even accounting for the differing mana tea stacks!

Now let's considering Crackling Jade Lightning. On that same Elegon kill, CJL was ticking for 34000 damage per tick on the platform with the same tick scaling as Soothing (0.86 seconds per tick). Let's assume we're using CJL instead of Soothing, and hardcasting Enveloping when we get 3 Chi. Hardcasting Enveloping takes precisely 2 ticks of CJL. CJL generates chi at the same rate as Soothing, so we can use the above estimates again. That's 56 ticks of CJL (70 minus 2 ticks for each of 7 Enveloping casts), plus 49 ticks of Enveloping, in one minute. Total is 56 * 40800 (CJL) + 49 * 22500 (EM) = 2.98 million healing (49.5k HPS)! This comes at the cost of 56 * 4719 = 264264 mana, for an HPM of 11.28 (same Mana Tea stacks as Soothing model as well)!

So CJL spam with hardcast Envelopings is 30% higher HPS and 113% higher HPM than Fistweaving, and 62% higher HPS and 21% higher HPM than Soothing spam.

So how, again, is Fistweaving superior to CJL on Elegon? Why again is it a bad ability?

CJL also allows you more control over the Eminence healing zone. Since Eminence's healing radius is centered on you rather than your DPS target (unlike Atonement), you can position yourself in the middle of the ranged group and heal them for all of your Eminence. On Elegon, I've found that dropping my statue right under the boss and standing with the ranged right on the edge works wonders. CJL splits the healing from each tick between the Elegon tank (or the melee group, if they are on the boss and damaged) and the ranged group, which generally also includes the add tank. Via this, CJL functions as a tank heal that splits between the two tanks until the add explodes, after which it functions as a smart patch heal on both the melee and the ranged group for topping people off that didn't get to max HP from the AoE healing post-explosion.

The really amusing part is, CJL even does more DPS than fistweaving.

As an appendix, on a non-Elegon encounter, CJL's healing is about 28% higher than Soothing's and about 54% higher than Fistweaving's. HPM, CJL is about 4.3% lower than Soothing's and about 151% higher than Fistweaving's. It's pretty much the go-to spell even without damage boosts.

TL;DR: CJL is universally superior to Fistweaving, regardless of circumstance. It both heals more per second AND more per mana. On any fight with a damage buff, it's superior to Soothing in both HPS and HPM, and even without a damage buff is superior in HPS and only slightly inferior in HPM.

You're a freak.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11210
Or you could still use your chi on EnvM with jab and not spam it endlessly to go oom?

Or you could healing sphere.

Fistweaving is generating chi with jab then spending it on chi things, not spamming BK or TP.


Let's consider that, then. In a 60 seconds period, you need to use BoK twice to maintain SZ. That's 4 chi. You also still need to Tiger Palm every 20 seconds, another 3 Chi. That's 7 chi, so 4 Jabs (3 with Power Strikes, 1 without). That leaves 51 seconds remaining in the minute. Enveloping takes 5.71 seconds to generate and consume, which means we have time left for 8 total. That's a total of 28 Jabs, 8 Envelopings, 2 BoKs, 3 Tiger Palms, and 22.82 auto attacks (can't auto-attack while casting Enveloping).

Total healing is 28 * 11000 (Jab) + 8 * 7 * 22500 (EM) + 2 * 52000 (BoK) + 3 * 20000 (TP) + 22.82 * 26500 (autoattacks) = 2.35 million healing (38.9k HPS) at the cost of 327600 mana (7.17 HPM)

So you've improved your HPM over BoK spam by about 35% (at the cost of 2.25 mana tea stacks), but your HPS only increased by about 2%.

Nope, Jab still isn't the answer.

Healing Sphere quite arguably is, but I don't expect that to last long...

Fact of the matter is, of our spammable Chi generators (ie. excluding Expel and Renewing), Jab is the least efficient we have, while simultaneously healing for the least per chi generated. Soothing is our most efficient, and CJL is heals for the most per Chi generated (ie. it's base HPM is the highest of the 3). The only thing Jab has going for it is raw Chi/second generation rate, which is only important in phases where you need to be spamming the crap out of chi spells (usually Uplift). However, in those situations, SCK is almost certainly going to be both more efficient and and more potent than either of the other 3 options anyway.

12/02/2012 01:31 AMPosted by Imgandiloljk
You're a freak.


Why thank you ^.^
Edited by Daerien on 12/2/2012 2:22 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
8130
Jab is significantly more reliable than soothing, while being 2.2k more expensive. Seeing as it generates chi 3x as fast, it's going to STILL be better for on-demand because our chi spenders are THAT much stronger. If all you want is HPM, then sure SoM away, but for low healing, our most efficient spell is healing sphere because it can be used with little overheal and thus high effective healing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11210
12/02/2012 03:11 AMPosted by Astråios
Jab is significantly more reliable than soothing, while being 2.2k more expensive. Seeing as it generates chi 3x as fast, it's going to STILL be better for on-demand because our chi spenders are THAT much stronger. If all you want is HPM, then sure SoM away, but for low healing, our most efficient spell is healing sphere because it can be used with little overheal and thus high effective healing.


Yes, but as I demonstrated above, Jab just flat can't keep up on either efficiency or raw output. You need output, CJL or Soothing. You need efficiency, Soothing or CJL. Jab is at the bottom of both lists (outside of Elegon, where Jab is higher output than Soothing, but not by a long shot more than CJL).

And the above takes into account our Chi spenders. If anything, our Chi spenders are all quite a bit less important than in 5.0. All of the major one we use got nerfed. Uplift, Chi Burst/Chi Wave/Zen Sphere, Enveloping Mist, they all got the nerf hammer. Due to that, our chi generators are comparatively more important in their output (and Jab is the bottom of that heap by a LONG shot). The mana cost hotfix similarly made efficiency that much more important again.

Don't get me wrong, Jab has its place. A lot of people try to use it for things its not good at, though. There seems to be this difficult to shake perception that Jab is THE button to hit for chi. The only advantage Jab has, as you pointed out, is it's reliability, but honestly, we have enough in our toolkit to handle without that. We also have 2 short-cooldown abilities that each force generate a Chi as well, at much better efficiency I might add, to shore up strings of bad RNG.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
12980
Your method for calculating auto-attack healing contribution is wrong, as you're failing to factor in both the serpent stance multiplier (though when comparing it solely to CJL that's a wash as long as you're not doing it on either) and the contribution of Tiger Strikes (which is effectively a 30% increase to auto-attack DPS.)

This calculator (that I've done a lot of code for) hasn't been updated for all of the latest nerfs yet (and it's calculating 1H instant attack damage as 10% too high, which I just figured out the other day,) but it's still right on for auto-attack DPS/HPS:

http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/mistweaver/calc.html

Plugging in my own stats and looking at my mostly-updated-but-not-pushed-yet-because-I'm-not-quite-done version of it, if I BoK to refresh SZ when it has 0 seconds remaining (obviously impossible outside of theorycrafting-land) and do absolutely nothing else (so I'm doing BoK's healing + 30 * melee w/ tiger strikes hps) I'm doing 25k hps at 45 hpm, compared to soothing's 29k hps/7.9 hpm and CJL's 49k hps/9.02 hpm.

Keep in mind that there are only two spells you can cast while soothing and zero you can cast while CJLing, whereas while continuing to auto-attack there are only five spells you can't cast. Soothing+enveloping when a target actually needs it is one thing (but at that point we're talking single-target focused healing vs smart raid healing, which is very apples-and-oranges,) but half-decent use of chi while auto-attacking is going to get you more hps and hpm than channeling CJL.

If your healing is mostly instant-based, meleeing while keeping SZ up is always going to be the right answer.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11210
Your method for calculating auto-attack healing contribution is wrong, as you're failing to factor in both the serpent stance multiplier (though when comparing it solely to CJL that's a wash as long as you're not doing it on either) and the contribution of Tiger Strikes (which is effectively a 30% increase to auto-attack DPS.)


I did not, I just didn't explicitly note the Serpent Stance multiplier. I did neglect Tiger Strikes. Including it raises the BoK style to 42k HPS and 5.84 HPM, and the Jab/Enveloping to 42k HP and 7.69 HPM. CJL is still superior.

And yes, Serpent Zeal on its own is incredibly powerful. Unfortunately, Serpent Zeal requires you to cast nothing but instants (and Chi Burst) while active in order to get full benefit. Casting anything but instants negates portions of its benefits., as does being out of melee range for any reason. On larger bosses, SZ isn't even that potent, as it's quite possible to be meleeing a boss and still be farther than 20 yards from the tank that needs healing (remember, Eminence centers on you, not your target).

And your characterization of spells able to cast is rather biased. Interrupting Soothing and CJL is not harmful. You can cast any spell in your arsenal without adversely affecting them (though Soothing admittedly takes a loss if you cast anything but Surging or Enveloping. CJL is designed around being interrupted, though). For Jab, the only things you can cast without harming SZ are BoK, Tiger Palm, Uplift, Chi Burst/Chi Wave/Zen Sphere, Renewing Mist, and Healing Sphere (ignoring our utility abilities and cooldowns). Enveloping and Surging, our most potent single-target heals by far, and SCK, one of our staple AoE heals, all lock out auto-attacks, and thus are harmful to SZ's benefit. This is not the case with CJL (with already takes such interruptions into account) and Soothing (which is not so interrupted).

Incidentally, I also just realized I neglected to include the statue's duplication of Soothing, which would raise that healing portion by 50%, boosting Soothing's to 36k HPS and 10.82 HPM.

So yes, comparing SZ alone to Soothing alone or CJL alone will generally favor SZ. However, that's not the whole picture. That's why I did complete work-ups as above. You have to factor in relative chi building and what you can spend that chi on. SZ limits your chi spending options too much for single-target healing to be useful. Even in AoE, CJL's Eminence healing is going to make up a LARGE portion of the difference in chi generation, assuming people can actually be in range of the Eminence (and I only know of one fight where that isn't regularly the case, Garalon).

If your healing is mostly instant-based, meleeing while keeping SZ up is always going to be the right answer.


Even with mostly instant-based healing, Jab is only superior to CJL if:

1) You need to generate as much chi as possible per second (generally only necessary for Uplift spam if the group is spread all over the place).
2) You have to keep mobile (very few fights require this).
3) The healing is light enough that SZ alone is doing a fair portion of your necessary healing output (never the case outside of 5-man, if even there).

Jab has situational use, but most of the situations that it's used today are inferior. I suspect this is because people view SZ's healing as "free". It's not free. It costs 2 chi, 23400 mana, and 30 seconds of not using any non-instant abilities or leaving melee range. Those are all direct opportunity costs that do penalize healing otherwise. Don't get trapped by the obfuscated opportunity costs into thinking SZ "free". It's not.
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100 Pandaren Monk
15995
All these new strategies. Thank you Daerien and Suzushiirou. With any luck, we'll have the kill.
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90 Pandaren Monk
2095
This read has been absolutely amazing. Theory-crafting at it's best.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10780
In that 60 seconds, you've healed for 3 * 20000 (TP) + 37 * 11000 (Jab) + 20 * 52000 (BoK) + 29.6 * 26500 (autoattacks) = ~2.3 million. That's about 38k HPS. In exchange, you've cost yourself 37 * 11700 = 432900 mana, or 5.31 HPM (though you *have* generated 10 stacks of Mana Tea).


Don't ignore ReM. Even with fistweaving (or maybe "especially" with fistweaving) you should be using it on CD.

Don't get trapped by the obfuscated opportunity costs into thinking SZ "free". It's not.


"Free" no, but extremely cheap? Yes.
Edited by Stalkings on 12/2/2012 1:29 PM PST
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
12/02/2012 01:27 PMPosted by Stalkings
In that 60 seconds, you've healed for 3 * 20000 (TP) + 37 * 11000 (Jab) + 20 * 52000 (BoK) + 29.6 * 26500 (autoattacks) = ~2.3 million. That's about 38k HPS. In exchange, you've cost yourself 37 * 11700 = 432900 mana, or 5.31 HPM (though you *have* generated 10 stacks of Mana Tea).


Don't ignore ReM. Even with fistweaving (or maybe "especially" with fistweaving) you should be using it on CD.


Except that for the purpose of comparison ReM is mostly a wash. It will slightly tweak the numbers but it won't change a number that lags into a number that leads unless the two are extremely close.
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93 Night Elf Monk
9405
Cool, now let's see some math supporting the idea that CJL is better than fistweaving with Cranedancer's Staff like any good fistweaving monk should be using anyway.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11210
Don't ignore ReM. Even with fistweaving (or maybe "especially" with fistweaving) you should be using it on CD.


I specifically ignored ReM because you should be casting it on cooldown regardless of what else you're doing. I'm not even sure which style it would favor, to be honest. Both fistweaving specs see basically no change from including ReM (other than the additional healing from ReM, obviously), as ReM simply replaces a Jab. For the Soothing and CJL styles, you lose a GCD of Soothing or CJL, but you gain a guaranteed chi (upping Enveloping uptime), so I'd wager it's close to a wash for them too (again, neglecting the additional healing from ReM, which would be the same for all of the styles).

"Free" no, but extremely cheap? Yes.


Not really. The direct cost (2 chi) is very cheap. The opportunity cost (no non-instant spells for 30 seconds, can't leave melee range for 30 seconds) is much larger. Spending even 8 of those 30 seconds interrupting your auto-attack places BoK under Enveloping for healing/chi.

Cool, now let's see some math supporting the idea that CJL is better than fistweaving with Cranedancer's Staff like any good fistweaving monk should be using anyway.


Cranedancer's is a bit of an anomaly. I'm honestly not sure how to handle it, as your fistweaving goes up considerably (roughly doubles, to be honest), but your other healing (including those all-important ReMs and Uplifts, as well as any Envelopings you cast) go down pretty solidly. I've only got a 476 weapon and the Cranedancer (1249 less SP) is a ~3-5% reduction in all of my non-melee heals. If I had my 496 Kri'tak instead (2444 more SP), we're talking closer to an 6-10% reduction, and that's just accounting for the raw SP differences, not the differences in Int and secondary stats.

Is an 5-10% decrease to non-melee heals worth a ~30-60% increase in melee heals (depending on the ilevel of your other weapon options)? Probably, but it depends on how much time you're actually spending fistweaving.

Is fistweaving with cranedancer superior to CJL with a Kri'tak (or hell, even my Tihan)? Woooo, that's a bit harder to say for sure, and probably something theorycrafting would have a tough time giving a definitive answer on anyway. I suspect, however, that unless you're using the BoK spam style above (ie. truly melee healing, rather than the "jabweaving" style of just using melee for chi generation and eminence through SZ, and spending that chi mostly on actual healing spells), you're still going to be better off with CJL with a better ilevel weapon than you are using Cranedancers for the extra Eminence. That's just a hunch (derived from a bit of mental napkin math), though, I've not actually run any hard numbers on it.
Edited by Daerien on 12/3/2012 5:29 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
15995
For whatever this is worth now that this is mostly a theorycrafting CJL vs SZ/Jab/BoK fistweaving, we did get the Elegon kill using the CJL method.

P1: I stood in the range pile and CJL eminence'd there, while my statue stayed by the boss tank. From there, I could always accurately Chi Burst nearly all the dps, and EM the Elegon tank for reliable topping off before explosions. RM out on cooldown of course. Back to CJL to bring raid up slowly between adds.

P2: Jade statue halfway up platform (reaching both sides of adds and the dps on them) when they spawn, stand between the 2 least sturdy dps. CJL and RM to build chi, uplift to spend chi. Possible revive if adds get nasty.

P3: Statue on dps, stand on dps, CJL, Chi Burst, RM, Xuen, violent cursing, bargains with whatever deities might be watching, etc.

Ended on fumes, but we got it.
Edited by Rakachu on 12/3/2012 10:43 AM PST
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