Can we talk about recuperate?

100 Dwarf Hunter
17970
11/25/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Tyiako
Recuperate is fine. It's design intent was for leveling and questing, to heal up after you finish off an enemy that has combo points left on them. The only reason so many rogues see it as something they should be able to use effectively in combat is because it was tied to energetic recovery, which meant it had to be up at all times.

if it were specifically for use *after* combat, it would have been designed more like victory rush, and would likely be an instant heal.

It was designed so that rogues could do solo content without having to sit down and eat every few fights. It wasn't necessarily designed to be used only after combat, but more of a tool to negate some damage that you have taken without taking a food break. Otherwise a rogues hp would just get whittled down till a food break was required and blizzard didn't want that. It's main purpose is not to be used in PvP, and if it was designed more like victory rush then it would be victory rush, they don't like homogenization, you should know that by now.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12395
It was designed so that rogues could do solo content without having to sit down and eat every few fights. It wasn't necessarily designed to be used only after combat, but more of a tool to negate some damage that you have taken without taking a food break. Otherwise a rogues hp would just get whittled down till a food break was required and blizzard didn't want that.
On that note, recuperate is not *fine*, because in its current state, any serious fight is going to take more than recuperate to recover from, esp 80 +.

It's main purpose is not to be used in PvP

Except it was the one measure introduced to rogues that fits in with the 'no long cooldown defenses' speech blizz gave around that time.
if it was designed more like victory rush then it would be victory rush, they don't like homogenization, you should know that by now.

combo points vs HP, Chi, RP
stealth/vanish vs camo, SG, DB
totems becoming vulnerable to lockouts/interrupts
Shaman imbues vs rogue poisons
Deterrence vs Die by the sword.
Blink vs shadowstep vs heroic leap/charge vs disengage vs wild charge

Fact is, Blizzard may say they are against homgenization, but they say a lot of things that don't always ring true the way the playerbase would expect.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17970
11/25/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Tyiako
On that note, recuperate is not *fine*, because in its current state, any serious fight is going to take more than recuperate to recover from, esp 80 +.

Now you have leeching poison as well. Sorry you can't easy mode solo the lich king.

11/25/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Tyiako
Except it was the one measure introduced to rogues that fits in with the 'no long cooldown defenses' speech blizz gave around that time.

Not many classes have short cooldown defenses, and heals aren't really defenses. Evasion is a defensive ability, recuperate is not.

11/25/2012 11:06 AMPosted by Tyiako
Fact is, Blizzard may say they are against homgenization, but they say a lot of things that don't always ring true the way the playerbase would expect.

Combo points, HoPo, Chi and runic power all function very differently and use different additional energy sources. Stealth is an extremely broad and general ability that rogues simply excel in, comparing it so abilities like camo, guise and displacer beast is like saying blizzard is homogenizing the game when more than one class can use fire based spells. Totems are spells, therefore effected by silence, whoda thunk it.

If recuperate was instant and only useable after a kill then it would just be victory rush except it required combo points, and things like shaman imbues and rogue poisons are very difficult to make different, as they are class mechanics. You are saying that individual ability effects are somehow comparable to class mechanics, which is downright idiotic. You are pretty much bashing blizzard for taking two of the same abilities and doing their best to make them different. Ya crippling poison and frostbrand are sorta similar, but how else are you going to design slowing abilities? When it comes to a general effect like damage windfury/flametongue and deadly poison are both quite different.

It's quite amazing how you can simultaneously bash blizzard because you think some abilities are homogenized but then you also bash them for not making specific abilities more homogenized. Recuperate is fine, get over it, rogues have bigger problems right now; something about mobility and passive damage.
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100 Goblin Rogue
9380
11/25/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
Recuperate is fine. It's design intent was for leveling and questing, to heal up after you finish off an enemy that has combo points left on them. The only reason so many rogues see it as something they should be able to use effectively in combat is because it was tied to energetic recovery, which meant it had to be up at all times.
This is just wrong, if it was just there to heal us up while questing it would be tied to experience and honor, it's definitely an intended part of our pvp toolset, albeit a weak and near worthless one.


Fact is, Blizzard may say they are against homgenization, but they say a lot of things that don't always ring true the way the playerbase would expect.

Combo points, HoPo, Chi and runic power all function very differently and use different additional energy sources. Stealth is an extremely broad and general ability that rogues simply excel in

I would rephrase that to stealth is an originally iconic rogue ability that no longer impacts gameplay the way it should. If i can get into stealth mid fight, it's a miracle. This is a different discussion though.

The matter of fact is that recuperate used to be something rogues would use in pvp, even before energetic recovery. Now recuperate is a pathetic self heal compared to the variety of other classes self heals that come at little to no opportunity cost, you can't just dismiss it as a questing ability, that's really poor design.
Edited by Leonoir on 11/25/2012 2:20 PM PST
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1 Human Rogue
0
11/25/2012 10:57 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
It's main purpose is not to be used in PvP,


I'm just going to say this: Stop now.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and you're really looking like a moron. Recup was given to rogues with a strong leaning towards pvp because Blizzard said they wanted to shift us away from being entirely "active" in our defense with cooldowns, and instead having some relatively passive through-put survivability which would still work when we were stunned.

pvp wasn't the only reason it was put in, but it was definitely not designed mainly for pve.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12395

Now you have leeching poison as well. Sorry you can't easy mode solo the lich king.

'easymode'? your bias is showing. though the inability of rogues to solo old raid encounters that most classes have little trouble with does point out some issues in terms of survivability sustainability.


Not many classes have short cooldown defenses, and heals aren't really defenses. Evasion is a defensive ability, recuperate is not.

This is really a matter of opinion/definition. when I think of short cooldown defenses, I include everything that can realistically be used to mitigate or recover from damage. most classes have short term, short cooldown absorbs or heals as part of their defensive toolkit.

Combo points, HoPo, Chi and runic power all function very differently and use different additional energy sources.

The differences aren't as great as you're trying to make them sound. the talent choices associated with them make them even more similar.

Stealth is an extremely broad and general ability that rogues simply excel in, comparing it so abilities like camo, guise and displacer beast is like saying blizzard is homogenizing the game when more than one class can use fire based spells. Totems are spells, therefore effected by silence, whoda thunk it.
Rogue 'excelling' in stealth is open to debate, but not the subject of the matter- and the 'theme' of stealth is/was more related to a given class(rogues) than one particular method of dealing damage(fire spells) will ever be.

If recuperate was instant and only useable after a kill then it would just be victory rush except it required combo points, and things like shaman imbues and rogue poisons are very difficult to make different, as they are class mechanics.
Hey, you were the one who claimed its main purpose served to support rogues fresh after the kill. apparently, I think it's supposed to be used to solo raid bosses, right? stick to your story.

On topic, is it 'okay' to homogenize when it's 'hard' to differentiate between two abilities of similar nature?


You are saying that individual ability effects are somehow comparable to class mechanics, which is downright idiotic.
The only thing idiotic is your bias, poor understanding of class mechanics, and of course, the personal attacks. but keep on keeping on.

You are pretty much bashing blizzard for taking two of the same abilities and doing their best to make them different. Ya crippling poison and frostbrand are sorta similar, but how else are you going to design slowing abilities? When it comes to a general effect like damage windfury/flametongue and deadly poison are both quite different.

Not really. I'm pointing out that Blizzard's stance against 'homogenization' is fuzzy, and doesn't translate to what the players believe. Pretty sure I said that too.

It's quite amazing how you can simultaneously bash blizzard because you think some abilities are homogenized but then you also bash them for not making specific abilities more homogenized. Recuperate is fine, get over it, rogues have bigger problems right now; something about mobility and passive damage.

You call it bashing, I call it 'stating the reality.' Nowhere did I insult Blizzard.
Recuperate isn't fine; it doesn't heal enough to be worth the opportunity cost. But I don't care too much about that.

I also didn't come to argue with you about rogue priorities, given you are known to be ignorant of and biased against the class. Let's just say that damage reallocation and mobility fixes are only a part of the problem.
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90 Undead Rogue
13680
11/25/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
Not many classes have short cooldown defenses, and heals aren't really defenses. Evasion is a defensive ability, recuperate is not.

Saying Recuperate doesn't increase longevity is like saying Slice and Dice doesn't increase damage.
Difference being of course that SnD does its job well and Recup does its job poorly.
Edited by Kanoi on 11/25/2012 3:00 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
4450
Yeah roll a warrior like I did...Its not happening for rogues this patch sorry.weak damage,crap survive and even worse mobility. Recoop is a utter joke and is a waste of combo points and leaching as far as I can tell is worthless."ohh boy a 5k heal on a 50k crit..no thanks..So many classes do everything better than we do right now..Best thing to do in reroll I'm sure most of you have most classes at 85 by now anyway.
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90 Worgen Warrior
4450
and no recoop dosent really increase logevity because most classes can easily burst through the weakness that is recooperate..Lol recoop is like the power of renew being cast from a shadowpriest its utter crap.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17970
Not many classes have short cooldown defenses, and heals aren't really defenses. Evasion is a defensive ability, recuperate is not.

Saying Recuperate doesn't increase longevity is like saying Slice and Dice doesn't increase damage.
Difference being of course that SnD does its job well and Recup does its job poorly.

In that case then dps cooldowns are also defensive cooldowns because they force your opponent to pop their defensive cooldowns which means they aren't using as much of their effort to deal damage to you.

11/25/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Hallinton
pvp wasn't the only reason it was put in, but it was definitely not designed mainly for pve.

Of course it wasn't designed only for PvE, it was designed for the general purpose of giving rogues enough self heals to not have to eat food after every fight where they took damage, which happens in PvP and PvE but most often in PvE, like questing and soloing. Why do you think they removed the link between recup and ER? Because they didn't like rogues just having it up at all times in PvP, for multiple reasons. They didn't think that a self heal should be something that should simply be up at all times, this is evident in it's design and even in the complaint of this thread, that rogues don't think it's "good enough". It's design intent isn't necessarily to be a heal you pop when you want to start gaining health back to full or even negate incoming damage, but to offer a cushion more or less that wouldn't really be the most optimum and efficient choice in every PvP environment, and to allow rogues to actually have a method of keeping their health up without lugging around multiple stacks of food.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
'easymode'? your bias is showing. though the inability of rogues to solo old raid encounters that most classes have little trouble with does point out some issues in terms of survivability sustainability.

I said easy mode because you shouldn't expecting it to keep you at 100% when fighting the lich king in the first place, if it did do that then it would be easy mode. It does do that in most situations but can't just be used as the end all beat all solution.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
This is really a matter of opinion/definition. when I think of short cooldown defenses, I include everything that can realistically be used to mitigate or recover from damage. most classes have short term, short cooldown absorbs or heals as part of their defensive toolkit.

And I go back to my earlier example, if any ability that prevents you from taking damage is a defensive cooldown then almost every cooldown in the game is technically a defensive cooldown, unless your opponent is arrogant enough to ignore your offensive cooldowns completely.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
The differences aren't as great as you're trying to make them sound. the talent choices associated with them make them even more similar.

Well we are waiting on players like you to come up with a more effective and more unique design method. What else can you do with an energy system besides having them all be pseudo energy bars in a way, filling over time to allow you to use specific attacks and abilities, that's pretty much every resource in the game, and that is why they are called resources.

Rogue 'excelling' in stealth is open to debate.

If you would like to begin one be my guest.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
On topic, is it 'okay' to homogenize when it's 'hard' to differentiate between two abilities of similar nature?

The point of homogenization is to keep abilities from becoming too alike, that's what it boils down to and whether or not two abilities are "similar" can't really be decided by a formula.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
The only thing idiotic is your bias, poor understanding of class mechanics, and of course, the personal attacks. but keep on keeping on.

I am not biased, I was simply stating the original main design intent of recuperate, and it wasn't put into the game as a result of the rogue PvP standing. I would say you are the one with the poor understanding, be more specific if you will though so that I can actually respond next time. I call it like it is.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
Not really. I'm pointing out that Blizzard's stance against 'homogenization' is fuzzy, and doesn't translate to what the players believe. Pretty sure I said that too.

They don't really have a formula for that kind of thing, like I stated earlier, but they do strive for as little homogenization as they can handle without making awful class mechanics in the strive for being "different" (Well at least most of the time. See hunter class). They don't really talk about it a lot but there has been quite a bit of a reduction in homogenization lately, especially noticeable with warlocks. I just hope they get around to the other pure classes, ahem.
Edited by Spinnerdh on 11/25/2012 9:07 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17970
Second post because I ran out of room:

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
Recuperate isn't fine; it doesn't heal enough to be worth the opportunity cost. But I don't care too much about that.

It might not heal enough to take priority over what else you could do the the combo points but it still is a pretty effective heal, granted it does take some time. A 5 CP recup is 25% total hp back, somewhere near and above 100k hp over 25 seconds, and that's without the glyph. It's baseline and belongs to a pure so it doesn't really need to or should be obligated to line up with hybrid or talented heals.

11/25/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Tyiako
I also didn't come to argue with you about rogue priorities, given you are known to be ignorant of and biased against the class. Let's just say that damage reallocation and mobility fixes are only a part of the problem.

Once again, I don't see how I am ignorant and biased if I simply choose to take the other side from time to time. I support rogues getting buffed in the ways they need it. But just because I might not have been directly on the mark at some point in time doesn't mean you can just lump all of my posts together and say that I am known to be ignorant of and biased against the class. Tbh, that whole cop out is getting pretty old, as it seems to be all I see these days in rebuttal whenever people see my posts, well it's all I see from rogues at least. They didn't like it when I told them that sprint shouldn't be compared to talented movement speed increase abilities and when I gave them GC's explanation as to what rogue tier 6 is supposed to be.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
3195
I'd say... let's just get rid of Recup... I know that's not what rogues want but seriously, less self-heals for everybody not just rogues.

Let's be dps for once.
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100 Goblin Rogue
9380
I'd say... let's just get rid of Recup... I know that's not what rogues want but seriously, less self-heals for everybody not just rogues.

Let's be dps for once.
healing is a part of being a DPS just like DPSing is part of being a healer. Rogues didnt have any healing until recently, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
3195
I'd say... let's just get rid of Recup... I know that's not what rogues want but seriously, less self-heals for everybody not just rogues.

Let's be dps for once.
healing is a part of being a DPS just like DPSing is part of being a healer. Rogues didnt have any healing until recently, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.


I'm saying dps should dps and that healers should heal.
And I don't think there's any "heal" in dps... at least, last time I checked it was still "Damage Per Second" and not "Damage & Healing Per Second".

Look at me bro... I'm a DK, I'm willing to give away my stuff to make this happen.
I'm also willing to be hated by this community to bring up some sense into y'all.

PvP shouldn't be about "Who can out heal to other" ... it should be about "Who's the smartest of the two" and since you're a rogue... I'm sure you understand where I'm going and more importantly ... what I mean.
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100 Goblin Rogue
9380
healing is a part of being a DPS just like DPSing is part of being a healer. Rogues didnt have any healing until recently, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.


I'm saying dps should dps and that healers should heal.
And I don't think there's any "heal" in dps... at least, last time I checked it was still "Damage Per Second" and not "Damage & Healing Per Second".

Look at me bro... I'm a DK, I'm willing to give away my stuff to make this happen.
I'm also willing to be hated by this community to bring up some sense into y'all.

PvP shouldn't be about "Who can out heal to other" ... it should be about "Who's the smartest of the two" and since you're a rogue... I'm sure you understand where I'm going and more importantly ... what I mean.
to put it simply, healing is too integrated into every class including hybrids/tanks for it to just 'not work' for DPS. you're going to have to have a really good reason why DPS shouldn't have healing abilities other than "it's the words in our role." As for your argument about healing not being 'smart' or whatever you are trying to say (I have no idea what you are trying to say) Healing and DPSing actively in pvp makes a more balanced, and interesting playstyle. It's also good that nobody just can't heal. Did you play before cataclysm? There's a good reason why healing is the way it is now.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
3195


I'm saying dps should dps and that healers should heal.
And I don't think there's any "heal" in dps... at least, last time I checked it was still "Damage Per Second" and not "Damage & Healing Per Second".

Look at me bro... I'm a DK, I'm willing to give away my stuff to make this happen.
I'm also willing to be hated by this community to bring up some sense into y'all.

PvP shouldn't be about "Who can out heal to other" ... it should be about "Who's the smartest of the two" and since you're a rogue... I'm sure you understand where I'm going and more importantly ... what I mean.
to put it simply, healing is too integrated into every class including hybrids/tanks for it to just 'not work' for DPS. you're going to have to have a really good reason why DPS shouldn't have healing abilities other than "it's the words in our role." As for your argument about healing not being 'smart' or whatever you are trying to say (I have no idea what you are trying to say) Healing and DPSing actively in pvp makes a more balanced, and interesting playstyle. It's also good that nobody just can't heal. Did you play before cataclysm? There's a good reason why healing is the way it is now.

Well... if I need to include tanks in the package I will.
If I had wanted to play a healer... I'd have rolled one.
But I choosed to be a dps & a tank so I'm expecting to be healed and not to do it myself.
-
If we're to heal ourselves then why have healers ?!
Hell, just delete every heal specs and give us the ability to just do it ourselves so that we're all clear... we're all healers, tanks and dps at the same time.

Jeez... let's even go farther down that road my man, let's delete every class in this game... create one that'll be a tank, melee & caster dps & to top it all off... a healer!
That'll be great, that'll be awesome... that'll be what y'all asking for but that'll also be the end & death of WoW.
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90 Worgen Rogue
3645
to put it simply, healing is too integrated into every class including hybrids/tanks for it to just 'not work' for DPS. you're going to have to have a really good reason why DPS shouldn't have healing abilities other than "it's the words in our role." As for your argument about healing not being 'smart' or whatever you are trying to say (I have no idea what you are trying to say) Healing and DPSing actively in pvp makes a more balanced, and interesting playstyle. It's also good that nobody just can't heal. Did you play before cataclysm? There's a good reason why healing is the way it is now.

Well... if I need to include tanks in the package I will.
If I had wanted to play a healer... I'd have rolled one.
But I choosed to be a dps & a tank so I'm expecting to be healed and not to do it myself.
-
If we're to heal ourselves then why have healers ?!
Hell, just delete every heal specs and give us the ability to just do it ourselves so that we're all clear... we're all healers, tanks and dps at the same time.

Jeez... let's even go farther down that road my man, let's delete every class in this game... create one that'll be a tank, melee & caster dps & to top it all off... a healer!
That'll be great, that'll be awesome... that'll be what y'all asking for but that'll also be the end & death of WoW.


wat...i don't even...wat....
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90 Goblin Death Knight
3195
11/25/2012 10:17 PMPosted by Charmane
wat...i don't even...wat....

So I take it you didn't notice you no longer was the only rogue around ?!
Too bad... I got news for you friend, look around... you're not alone.

I wonder who's going to benefit from rogues next and what exactly are they're gonna get.
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100 Goblin Rogue
9380

Well... if I need to include tanks in the package I will.
If I had wanted to play a healer... I'd have rolled one.
But I choosed to be a dps & a tank so I'm expecting to be healed and not to do it myself.
-
If we're to heal ourselves then why have healers ?!
Hell, just delete every heal specs and give us the ability to just do it ourselves so that we're all clear... we're all healers, tanks and dps at the same time.

Jeez... let's even go farther down that road my man, let's delete every class in this game... create one that'll be a tank, melee & caster dps & to top it all off... a healer!
That'll be great, that'll be awesome... that'll be what y'all asking for but that'll also be the end & death of WoW.
You're taking a pretty big leap by insinuating that self healing being a homogenized thing means that there should no longer be healers. Once you can accept that healing is just another form of active mitigation this will be a lot easier to accept that healing/selfhealing being a cross the board is not going to change.

Can we talk about recuperate?
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90 Goblin Death Knight
3195
11/25/2012 10:30 PMPosted by Leonoir
Can we talk about recuperate?

We just did and you didn't like my argument.
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