Can we talk about recuperate?

90 Goblin Death Knight
3195
11/25/2012 10:41 PMPosted by Leonoir

We just did
---nope.

You forgot the "And you didn't like my argument"
If you're to quote me... do it right.
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100 Goblin Rogue
8135
---nope.

You forgot the "And you didn't like my argument"
If you're to quote me... do it right.

There is a reason i cut the quote off like i did.

Recuperate is still the only defensive finisher that is almost insignificant.
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11/25/2012 08:59 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Of course it wasn't designed only for PvE, it was designed for the general purpose of giving rogues enough self heals to not have to eat food after every fight where they took damage, which happens in PvP and PvE but most often in PvE, like questing and soloing. Why do you think they removed the link between recup and ER


Pay attention Spinner, because I'm only going to explain this to you once.

There were two things that made Rogues strong in Cata PvP.

(1) Early in the expansion, Recup was too strong. It was nerfed (along with many Rogue CC durations). Even afterwards, while damage was piss poor, Subtlety remained a strong spec. Why? Prep/Step/Elusiveness? No. Because it didn't have to juggle finishers (yes, I know you already know that part). Unfortunately, Mut did, and that was one of several reasons why there could only be one Rogue PvP spec.

Moving ER off Recuperate was necessary if Blizzard wanted to attempt making all three Rogue specs viable in PvP.

(2) Later in the expansion, Subtlety saw a buff in Hemo damage, followed by Legendaries and a PvE trinket, and a considerable amount of scaling. Where Sub was very strong before, the extra damage is what made it OP.

In other words, all Blizzard had to do to balance Subtlety, in the context of Cata, was reduce damage to reasonable (not early-Cata ultra-low) levels and move ER somewhere else.

-------

Great, so what's all that have to do with Recup as a PvP ability?

Blizzard never came out and specifically stated what Recup was meant for, however, it came at the same time as one particular train of thought. GC and the development team stated that they were worried PvP matches were too fast, and that they intended to increase the duration of matches in order to make luck less of a factor than skill.

Well, Recup did just that. It wasn't a particularly strong heal, but the fact that it could be up all the time (for Sub, not Mut/Combat) and would heal small amounts of damage in between Rogue CC was part of what allowed Rogues to stay on target. Step and Prep and Elusiveness could get you there, but Gouge and Blind and 70% Crippling and the moderate healing from Recuperate allowed you to stay there.

THAT was the real power of Recuperate, not the "Vanish and heal to full and reset the match" myth.

So while Blizzard did not outright say that Recup was for PvP, and while Recup certainly did make soloing and questing easier, it's pretty clear that it was both an intended PvP ability AND one that worked remarkably well.
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11/25/2012 10:01 AMPosted by Leonoir
You make some interesting points, my personal quarrel with just doubling recuperate's duration is that it kind of turns the ability into a slightly cheesy long heal.


To be honest, I think that while simply increasing (doubling was meant to be an example) Recuperate's damage would help address the symptom, I think there's a larger concern here.

HaT (even nerfed) and Premed are essentially free ranged combo points, something extremely undervalued by Rogues. What allows Sub to keep up ER (through SnD) and Recup up at range? HaT and Premed. When thrown into the nature of SnD (long-duration no-RnG undispellable self-buff, vice Venomous Wounds' shorter duration RnG dispellable melee range debuff with shorter duration dispellable poison requirement that doesn't work through bubbles or Combat's "must be auto-attacking target" Potency), you can start to see how valuable HaT and Premed are.

Go a bit further and you're in the territory of saving combo points for a Kidney Shot, into Anticipation, or for an unlikely Deadly Throw, and you REALLY know how valuable it is. Sure, Shuriken Toss can help mitigate that, but it's not free and negates other tier 3 options.

If we REALLY want Recup to matter, increasing it's duration is a start, but in the end both Mut and Combat need a method to generate free, ranged combo points.

11/25/2012 10:01 AMPosted by Leonoir
I'm glad you brought up the survivability tier because they are in my opinion all very very ineffective. Elusiveness costs energy and can't be used while stunned, cheat death only helps you if you are about to die, and even then its rarely going to change anything. Then leeching poison (which is the only talent choice that eliminates a future talent choice entirely) is available and makes shiv a heal for 5% of HP (around 13k) also heals on your attacks (not damage) for 10% of the damage dealt. I just can't see any of our survivability tier actually impacting my survival.


I agree, but again, I don't think that's due to the mechanics (save LP not proccing off poisons/bleeds, my poor Mut spec!), but more due to their values. Even Elusiveness not usable through stuns/incapacitates/fears makes sense (Feint? Really?), but only because I think the issue with that lies elsewhere.

While Rogue CC has fallen, CC WoW-wide has skyrocketed. I think the issue is that Rogue resistance to CC has remained extremely low, even fallen itself (Vanish and Cloak CDs were increased) with the exception for those who talent BoS. I think Feint would be fine if Rogues had an escape to all the loss of control of character moves out there, but that's another thread.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17165
11/26/2012 03:46 AMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Blizzard never came out and specifically stated what Recup was meant for, however, it came at the same time as one particular train of thought. GC and the development team stated that they were worried PvP matches were too fast, and that they intended to increase the duration of matches in order to make luck less of a factor than skill.


Yes they did and it was just what people were saying about questing. They particularly said that the reason they give most classes self heals is to limit the downtime from questing. That was ALL in the recup discussion for cata and throughout the expansion they stated it.
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90 Worgen Rogue
3645
11/26/2012 04:07 AMPosted by Purebalance
Blizzard never came out and specifically stated what Recup was meant for, however, it came at the same time as one particular train of thought. GC and the development team stated that they were worried PvP matches were too fast, and that they intended to increase the duration of matches in order to make luck less of a factor than skill.


Yes they did and it was just what people were saying about questing. They particularly said that the reason they give most classes self heals is to limit the downtime from questing. That was ALL in the recup discussion for cata and throughout the expansion they stated it.


yeah i don't remember recuperate being tied to the length of arena matches. if there are any relevant quotes anyone has from the devs that would probably help give some context to what recuperate should be.

right now it just feels too weak, even for questing i find that bandaging is a far better option to top myself off between kills. also, i remain steadfast on the position that recup should not be a finisher, but rather cost energy.
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Yes they did and it was just what people were saying about questing. They particularly said that the reason they give most classes self heals is to limit the downtime from questing. That was ALL in the recup discussion for cata and throughout the expansion they stated it.


yeah i don't remember recuperate being tied to the length of arena matches. if there are any relevant quotes anyone has from the devs that would probably help give some context to what recuperate should be.


I'd love to see where they said that Pure. I mean, it's possible I missed it, I don't hang on to every single thing every developer says ... but there was very definitely a context of increasing the duration of PvP matches at that time and no other Rogue abilities were added that would do that.
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100 Worgen Warrior
5160
11/26/2012 04:49 AMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Yes they did and it was just what people were saying about questing. They particularly said that the reason they give most classes self heals is to limit the downtime from questing. That was ALL in the recup discussion for cata and throughout the expansion they stated it.


yeah i don't remember recuperate being tied to the length of arena matches. if there are any relevant quotes anyone has from the devs that would probably help give some context to what recuperate should be.


I'd love to see where they said that Pure. I mean, it's possible I missed it, I don't hang on to every single thing every developer says ... but there was very definitely a context of increasing the duration of PvP matches at that time and no other Rogue abilities were added that would do that.


actually i dont really remember when recuperate was added. -_- but i do remember that rogues were hurting in the leveling department because of downtime. sorta like warriors before victory rush.

either way right now it is seeing little to no use on my rogue. the deadly momentum glyph makes it a little less painful to keep up. also, i really don't see why recuperate can't tick every second; just a QoL fix.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17165
Not ticking every second is fine. Give it another 1% maybe and make deadly momentum baseline.

There was a whole big self heal discussion with blue posts back in early cata. It's become increasingly difficult to do searches for blue posts since people constantly type things like "please blue post in my thread with answers" even though making a thread and asking for a blue post is against forum rules.

I'm heading out the door for work now but if I remember I'll do my best to find it later on.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
3195

You forgot the "And you didn't like my argument"
If you're to quote me... do it right.

There is a reason i cut the quote off like i did.

Recuperate is still the only defensive finisher that is almost insignificant.

If you need to rely on Recup... there's a problem.
Back in Wrath rogues didn't have Recup and they were a whole lot more better too.
But Since Cata, everybody got some sort of self-healing... and that became a game of "Who heals the most FTW" and that game was boring as hell just like MoP is.
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90 Undead Rogue
13680
11/26/2012 05:32 AMPosted by Mafic
Recuperate is so bad now that it isn't even worth using for leveling. If it is a leveling skill at least make it useful in that capacity.

It's not so much that Recuperate is bad, it's just that it's completely overshadowed in PvE by Leeching Poison, which is far more effective and doesn't really cost us anything to use.

But Recuperate is pretty bad. Effective healing needs to be increased and duration needs to be reduced. Give it a cooldown if that's the way to balance that, but combo points and energy are now too precious to waste on such on what is essentially a maintenance survival buff. We already have Slice & Dice and Rupture to maintain - we shouldn't be expected to juggle Recuperate in there. It'd be better served as an ability to use when we need it - our defenses are terrible.
Edited by Kanoi on 11/26/2012 11:26 AM PST
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actually i dont really remember when recuperate was added. -_- but i do remember that rogues were hurting in the leveling department because of downtime. sorta like warriors before victory rush.

either way right now it is seeing little to no use on my rogue. the deadly momentum glyph makes it a little less painful to keep up. also, i really don't see why recuperate can't tick every second; just a QoL fix.


Well, I won't lie, it was absolutely outstanding for leveling, it's still good (Deadly Momentum as a glyph instead of a talent was a brilliant move, one of the great things Rogues gained this expansion) ... but I'm still pretty confident that PvP was a factor.

It's not surprising you're seeing little use of it, Sub now has to juggle it in as Mut did. The opportunity cost is simply too high; there's too much to juggle with too few combo points. Hence, I suggest increasing Recuperate's duration (no resets if you have to wait in stealth for a minute to heal, the match will be over or your target gone) instead of it's strength.

Ticking every second would be fine, but I don't see it either necessary or helpful beyond QoL.

11/26/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Kanoi
It'd be better served as an ability to use when we need it - our defenses are terrible.


I respectfully disagree. Not all Rogues like self-healing. Recup + glyph + Leeching Poison allows those who do to have high healing, Cheat Death and Elusiveness are options for those who don't. Certainly Leeching is more limited than Recup (requires a target, melee range, actively striking), but I don't see a need for Leeching + Recup + glyph to be much more powerful than Cata Recup + Improved Recup + Quickening. An "opportunity cost" reduction would be nice though.
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100 Goblin Rogue
8135
I like the idea of elusiveness triggering on recuperate as well as feint :)

Edit: That might be TOO good though, like I might like recuperate.
Edited by Leonoir on 11/28/2012 6:06 PM PST
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90 Goblin Rogue
9530
A whole topic dedicated to me? I feel honored.
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