Time to buff shadow priest?

90 Undead Priest
5275
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings
http://simulationcraft.org/

Fire mage is nerfed around 15% dps and can still do better than shadow priest in Single Target "Patchwerk" Encounter. If I remember correctly, spriest has been the bottom 5 or 6 in the dps simulator since MOP was released. Is it time to buff shadow priest a little bit?
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90 Undead Priest
9835
I don't think the sims are anywhere close.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Shadow Priest is in a good spot right now.
Edited by Semirhaj on 12/2/2012 10:19 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14040
I would like to see us get a bit better mobility and have stronger options of cooldowns (Bender, PI) over random burst (FDCL, DI) or fixed burst (SW:I, ToF) and priority list that revolves around synergy between DoTs and DD rather than the two feeling completely disconnected. I don't agree that we need a damage buff but rather I think we need a few tweaks here and there to make the spec feel more streamlined again.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7035
I don't think the sims are anywhere close.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Shadow Priest is in a good spot right now.


Good, No.

Okay.. maybe.

While sims are obviously not actual data, they can and do give a fair representation of class DPS. People seem to think that Shadow has some crazy burst damage, a ton of CC, and too much Off-healing.

PVP wise - We have NO burst if we want to Horror. At all. PF got nerfed hard, Guise did too, and SF isnt hard to cc

PVE wise - Our AoE got a little buffed, and I can't complain about that anymore really, but Single Target, we just have such a mediocre burst, and no offensive CD to help us in a burst phase.

Ok yes, I sound like im complaining a lot, but its just pointing out the LITTLE things that put us so far behind.
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90 Troll Priest
14700
I'm okay with our mediocre to good burst, because usually within a minute or two of a fight, we tend to creep up and meet the top DPS and be within 2-3k. Good sustained dipses, yes please!
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90 Troll Priest
14700
Also, as for situational burst: We're pretty !@#$ing great at that if you can time your orbs right. Two spikes, then Blast, then 3 orb DP can dish out a loooad of DPS, especially with a lucky crit or two.

More yet to say: Halo is AMAZING AoE burst for some fights, like Heroic Feng. Drop your add, run out, Halo, run back in and spam Sear. Delicious.
Edited by Theyas on 12/3/2012 6:20 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
19095
Do yourself a favor and never visit Noxxic.

Either way, the rankings on Noxxic for "theoretical" are the Patchwerk setting and for "real" are the Helter Skelter setting. Patchwerk is pretty much not seen in raiding anymore. Tank and spank encounters just really don't exist anymore. Helter Skelter is the absolute messiest fight and is not typically seen in raiding, though there are a few fights this tier that are pretty close to it. Either way, you can't just use one setting and say that's an accurate representation of DPS. On top of that, Raidbots, which was already linked, is a compilation of actual results instead of projected results and therefore should be used over any Simcraft data when trying to determine what sort of spot a class or spec is in at the given time.

Beyond that, it's OK that Fire is still ahead of us on single target. Fire was pretty stupid and somewhat broken and single target is rather weak for us. It's OK for it to be that way as long as two conditions are met. The first is that we can't be so bad at it that we get sat on those encounters. The second is that we do better and excel at other areas.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11285
12/03/2012 06:23 AMPosted by Nixxe
The first is that we can't be so bad at it that we get sat on those encounters. The second is that we do better and excel at other areas.


and even though it is obvious, i will say that both these conditions are currently being met.
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90 Undead Priest
9835
I don't think the sims are anywhere close.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Shadow Priest is in a good spot right now.


Good, No.

Okay.. maybe.

While sims are obviously not actual data, they can and do give a fair representation of class DPS. People seem to think that Shadow has some crazy burst damage, a ton of CC, and too much Off-healing.

PVP wise - We have NO burst if we want to Horror. At all. PF got nerfed hard, Guise did too, and SF isnt hard to cc

PVE wise - Our AoE got a little buffed, and I can't complain about that anymore really, but Single Target, we just have such a mediocre burst, and no offensive CD to help us in a burst phase.

Ok yes, I sound like im complaining a lot, but its just pointing out the LITTLE things that put us so far behind.

Our sustained is excellent with tiny bouts of burst thrown in. We do have burst, its just not sustained burst like a ret paladin per say. The one thing I love about shadow priest PVE is while everyone else bursts up at the beginning, they are constantly falling downwards on the dps charts while spriest gets to their sustained quickly and stays there. When i played ret in cata I hated the feeling of watching my dps constantly falling.
Edited by Semirhaj on 12/3/2012 8:17 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7035

Our sustained is excellent with tiny bouts of burst thrown in. We do have burst, its just not sustained burst like a ret paladin per say. The one thing I love about shadow priest PVE is while everyone else bursts up at the beginning, they are constantly falling downwards on the dps charts while spriest gets to their sustained quickly and stays there. When i played ret in cata I hated the feeling of watching my dps constantly falling.


I do like our RNG-ness with the right talents though. While it can be very inconsistent, if we get lucky, we get REALLY lucky.
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90 Undead Priest
6435
we are fine
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100 Undead Priest
10660
I don't think the sims are anywhere close.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Shadow Priest is in a good spot right now.


Once you get outside of MSV, our DPS shows a much different picture.

Let's go through Heart of Fear, shall we.

1st boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_Vizier_Zor%27lok/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Ranked 16th spec. Every class has a better dps spec than we do here with the exception of Druids whom we edge out by less than 225 dps.

2nd boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lord_Ta%27yak/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Ranked 13th spec. Every class has a better dps spec than we do here with the exception of Shaman whom we edge out by .2 dps.

3rd boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Garalon/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Ranked 11th spec. This is our best performing fight in the entire instance. We perform better than Hunters, Monks, and Shaman, but still get beat by everything else.

4th boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord_Mel%27jarak/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Ranked 15th spec. Only Hunters perform worse on this encounter and by less than 2k dps.

5th boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Amber-Shaper_Un%27sok/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Ranked 14th spec. Once again only Hunters perform worse.

6th boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Empress_Shek%27zeer/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Most of the specs are not ranked yet. Either way we are sitting at 8 out of 13 specs as of the time I write this, which is still below average.

So for 4 out of 6 fights Priests are the 2nd worst class in DPS. At no point do we hit average on any fight in these parses. Other classes are doing a minimum of 15% more damage and at most 35% more damage than we are on any given fight.

To say Shadow Priests are in a good spot right now is, in my opinion, faulty. MSV is an instance with mechanics designed to empower Spriests DPS. Outside of this instance, the numbers do not lie - we are not in a good spot.
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90 Troll Priest
11765
I agree, buff shadowform, make it darker and allow the eyes to glow green. However, Blizzard would have to buff female Trolls in the process, as they do not blink, ever. This would lower the pseudo value of glowing eyes for female Trolls if they don't add the ability to blink.

6th boss
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Empress_Shek%27zeer/10H/100/7/30/p75/#7vvvv

Most of the specs are not ranked yet. Either way we are sitting at 8 out of 13 specs as of the time I write this, which is still below average.


I'm curious how you came across an analytical assessment while acknowledging that all data is not available.
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90 Pandaren Priest
13930
Skill > Simulation

Shadow is fine, sure I'll take a free buff, but really, we're fine.
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100 Undead Priest
10660

I'm curious how you came across an analytical assessment while acknowledging that all data is not available.


Because I wanted to maintain the same data as the person I was quoting, which in this case was 10 man heroics.

If you want to look at 10 man normals or 25 man normals for the same fights, of which there is plenty of data, you will still find the same conclusions - that Priests are below average and other classes are consistently doing 15% to 35% more DPS than us.

It's not like it's just one class putting out more damage either, as if Mages were the only culprits here. Garalon is our best fight in that instance and 4 classes are pumping out more than 20k DPS than we are, not to mention other classes who are still putting out more damage though not to such an extreme.

Also there is personal experience. I've actually completed Heart of Fear, which I cannot say for many posting in this thread (including you). Our single-target DPS is mediocre and we have no DPS cooldowns outside of Shadowfiend. When Bloodlust goes off everyone else pops their damage cooldowns...while I press my potion and go back to what I was doing before.

And then of course there is the long-standing idea that numbers don't tell the whole truth. Here is an example:

On Empress, when a bunch of adds come out, a Shadow Priest can artificially inflate their DPS by simply putting DoTs on everything. Cool. And when you're in an actual raid, with undergeared tanks/healers who simply cannot keep the tank alive through those adds, your raid leader asks you to burn one add very quickly before the tank's survivability cooldowns fall off. Oh, right - we have poor single-target DPS and no cooldowns to blow.

We can partially make up for situations like the above because we bring utility (for example I can Void Shift the tank since I can't kill the add quickly). Our class has tools, but keep in mind every class has tools too.

Point is: anybody who looks at the same numbers as I do and comes to the conclusion we're in a GOOD spot requires a response demonstrating a clearer picture of the matter.
Edited by Multicidez on 12/4/2012 3:38 PM PST
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90 Troll Priest
11765
All I said is you made an analytical assessment while confessing you didn't have all the data. You then made a long post about how awesome you are and your opinion based on ten man content is of merit above logic.

12/04/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Multicidez
If you want to look at 10 man normals or 25 man normals for the same fights, of which there is plenty of data, you will still find the same conclusions


That is another false statement, as there is still missing data via "raidbots".

While I agree shadow is a middle of the road DPS at the moment, I never made a statement about agreeing or disagreeing with you in my original shot out. You assumed disagreed. By the way, comparing our dps to outliner dps parses from Fire Mages is nothing to write about.

I hope I demonstrated this in a more clearer picture, if you wish, I can opt to create a diagram.
Edited by Mindplague on 12/4/2012 7:08 PM PST
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42 Draenei Mage
550
I would like to see us get a bit better mobility and have stronger options of cooldowns (Bender, PI) over random burst (FDCL, DI) or fixed burst (SW:I, ToF) and priority list that revolves around synergy between DoTs and DD rather than the two feeling completely disconnected. I don't agree that we need a damage buff but rather I think we need a few tweaks here and there to make the spec feel more streamlined again.


I would have agreed with this a few months ago, but after playing around with Affliction in 5.0 I find the concept really dissatisfying in practice, because improving DoT-DD synergy inherently means taking stuff away from DoTs (presuming we're starting from a balanced position) in order for them to be 'normal' when empowered by our various secondary effects.

Maybe a proc would work though, my biggest complaint (from a PvE angle) is that it sort of feels like there's something missing from the spec if I don't have FDCL... which is a shame because I actually really like Insanity too.

Oh. Shadow Orbs might stand for a bit of retuning too. They feel kind of one dimensional right now, especially in PvE. It just slows down your DP rather than feeling like any real mechanic.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14040
12/04/2012 07:25 PMPosted by Mirari
I would like to see us get a bit better mobility and have stronger options of cooldowns (Bender, PI) over random burst (FDCL, DI) or fixed burst (SW:I, ToF) and priority list that revolves around synergy between DoTs and DD rather than the two feeling completely disconnected. I don't agree that we need a damage buff but rather I think we need a few tweaks here and there to make the spec feel more streamlined again.


I would have agreed with this a few months ago, but after playing around with Affliction in 5.0 I find the concept really dissatisfying in practice, because improving DoT-DD synergy inherently means taking stuff away from DoTs (presuming we're starting from a balanced position) in order for them to be 'normal' when empowered by our various secondary effects.


I'm not talking about Affliction, I'm talking about Shadow. Pre-5.0 we had fantastic synergy between DoTs and Direct Damage. You had to have Pain (and Mind Flay) on a Target to generate shadow orbs, shadow orbs improved your Mind Blast and Mind Spike damage. To keep pain up on a target you had to cast Mind Flay to renew it's timer. For our mana regeneration we had to have VT on a target we were hitting with Mind Blast. When we would consume shadow orb/s we would get empowered shadows that buffed our DoTs. Casting Mind Flay would give us Dark Evangelism that also buffed our DoTs and the stacks could be consumed to give us Dark Archangel which provided a fantastic Direct Damage spell buff on a 1.5 min cooldown.

So while I'm not saying that we should go back to as complex a synergy as that, I do think that where we are now where the only synergy is that Mind Blast locks Devouring Plague behind a 24 second cooldown (before haste) seems like a very jarring change in the feel of the spec.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9610
well i think we should go back to how it was in cata, the way orbs work right now is just dumb. The way direct damage spells used to work with our dots, buffing each other back and forth and providing us with a burst cooldown with AA felt so much more natural then this new system.

For the life of me I just cannot feel comfortable with the new shadow. and i just cant stress enough how fail shadow orbs are now, considering at one stage in the beta shadow orbs were going to be used to make shadow apparitions and that got canned I can only hope that they do actually change the way our shadow orbs work to something that makes shadow orbs powerful once more rather then simply unlocking a dot for a short period of time
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