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I believe Dks and druids are still considered the best overall tanks for 2 reasons.
You're comparing apples to nothing. Not even apples to oranges... you're not making a comparison at all. Paladins and Monks also have incredible self-healing and/or absorbs.
Besides that, DKs and Bears are very reliant on self-healing.
2) Just the overall damage mitigation, druids obviously have the highest EH pools atm thanks to their mastery, currently I'm reforged into mastery (though crit is probably better but because I also dps single tank fights i go mastery) and run somehwhere close to 100k armor, which is about 68% physical damage reduction.
On the other hand, you only have avoidance from agility and dodge rating, which you do not get any class bonuses to. Active mitigation can increase that by 45% from base for a limited time.
Contrast with monks, who get avoidance from the same amount of agility, dodge rating, parry, swift reflexes, and shuffle. While the equivalent to Savage Defense, Elusive Brew, gives 15% less dodge, it's important to realize that monks are starting ahead of the curve--
Base parry :3%
Swift reflexes :5%
Total difference: 28%
Bear under Savage Defense: +45%
Monk under Elusive Brew: +58%
If you take an equivalently geared monk, he's going to have 15.48% dodge--same as you.
So, without cooldowns (except shuffle what should have 100% uptime), the monk has 43.48% Evasion compared to your 15.48%. He'll be taking only 56.5% of the hits, you'll be taking 84.5%.
So you're taking 50% more strikes than he is.
Then you toss in Armor (27%), Ox Stance (25%), Stagger (44% minimum), so that's only 30% of spike damage actually taken when it connects. (tho it'll get staggered for later)
In your case, however, that becomes 27% of spike damage actually taken.
That means that spikes on you are 10% smaller.
HOWEVER... you're taking 3 of them for the monk's 2--if cooldowns aren't being blown.
IF, however, your dodge cooldowns are both being blown, then the monk's going to only take 26.5% of incoming traffic, while you're looking at 39.5% of the swings heading to your face...
almost 50% more swings than the monk AGAIN.
Another difference that is in the monk's favor is that monks have the power to stack their active mitigation--so a Druid with 100 rage can choose to FR -or- SD, but has to wait for 20 more rage before he has 60 to perform the other.
Monks, however, can pop guard and elusive brew at the same time, further reducing the spike they take.
There's a reason why druids are getting Tooth and Claw.
Blood dks have the largest HP pool and their blood shield on fights like will can be stacked to very high numbers while they aren't taking a lot of damage, and on progression fights with high tank damage purgatory is just a god like talent.
DKs are decent.
Granted pallys and warriors aren't terrible, they are both actually pretty good, its simply that if your looking for the best dks/druids are slightly better. Pallys can however do a massive amount of healing if they know what they are doing.
You need a bit more data than assertion. Both bring very strong mitigation cooldowns, and shields. Shields are strong. A HUGE chunk of armor PLUS block % is not something you thumb your nose at.
Monks in general though are probably the worst, with no armor increase, and the fact that stagger until purifing brew doesn't actually prevent any damage is a poor design mechanic and in all likelihood as progression continues and bosses hit harder at some point they are going to need a mechanic change.
Monks are REALLY good, actually. The monk gets hit less often than a druid, and takes comparable damage when he DOES get hit, he can self heal, he can stack active mitigation together, he can save shuffle duration during down time to focus chi on purifying during heavy damage spikes.
Monks have a very large base damage reduction (25%) and stagger is a HUGE chunk of damage smoothed which makes them a lot tankier than their lack of armor indicates. They work extremely well with a hot-based healer because when they do get spiked, most of that spike gets converted to a dot--a dot that may be countered by already rolling hots.
It's a LOT easier to heal damage being staggered than damage being taken outright, and monks are balanced around that.
I use a giant !@#$-off polearm.
Edited by Kickgruntler on 11/27/2012 11:53 AM PST
er no I didn't say we lacked utility BECAUSE of buff/debuffs. however I did say I'd kill for paw/might or sunder
Get it straight if ur gonna troll.
You have horn of winter.
well, i have a prot war. had him for years. every xpac i start out with tanking then get bored and move on to dps. so far this xpac i have no problems and actually LOVE tanking with prot war. our 10m team runs war/monk tank combo. works great with no real problems. (my partners awesome)
Not saying monks are bad, because tank balance is in a really good spot right now, but I'm kind of upset at the lack of attention us bears are getting on this thread. We are nowhere near as bad as you make us out to be. I'd even argue 5.1 made us the best tank in the game. Tooth and claw is an extremely powerful tool, which might end up getting nerfed soon.
Ignoring times when we use it to our own benefit, when we're capped out on rage (which is fairly often), here's some fights where you can abuse the crap out of it while co-tanking:
Garalon (heroic only)
Windlord (if 2 tanked)
10 out of 16 fights where we will be reducing the other tank's damage by at least 24k (modified by vengeance +) almost every other hit.
Not to mention the incredibly strong raid utility we bring. Take your pick:
Battle rez (insta, while in bear form with NS).
Typhoon, Vortex (Will of the emperor anyone?)
Symbiosis (very powerful tank CDs for the co-tank since 5.1)
Extremely powerful on-demand healing and / or DPS (heart of the wild)
Now to get into mitigation numbers, you were assuming we're always, or almost always without SD, which is not true at all. The way most fights are designed, when tanking you will almost always have SD up, since you can keep a 100% uptime on a 42 (or 45?) second interval before having downtime. Not to mention we also have very powerful self heals, which we don't need 60 rage to use. A smart bear can combine both SD and FR on certain fights (heroic elegon, tsulong, etc) to simply ease the hell out of any healer's job. Not to mention we have the highest armor, and roll some pretty amazing dodge numbers (actively speaking, higher than a monk).
DPS wise, all tank classes are pretty even right now, if not almost dead even. Anybody saying otherwise is just being outplayed. (Remember DPS is pretty much based off of vengeance. Higher tanking uptime = higher DPS than the other tank)
Edited by Maefor on 11/28/2012 11:50 PM PST
Most of the posts were made before T&C.
I'm all for T&C on druids, more active mitigation is awesome, especially when it comes with no nerf attached.
Atm. Best dps while tanking is Monks for 25 man. Warriors for 10 man heroics. Paladins have massive dmg and raid heals.
Next patch Monk/Paladin will be best dps. And paladins will still have massive raid heals combined with best cds, combined with high dps. So Paladin will probably be king. Wars losing the slight dps advantage they had to make up for slight lack of utility. Not sure if we'll be below druids for overall utility. But dmg is getting a heavy smack. Even before the execute nerf.
Although it is getting nerfed in 5.2....... 3 million + damage executes are fun. Not to mention 4th HOF fight you can show off your sword and out DPS everyone with 500k + DPS.
Not saying we are the best. Just those are some fun perks.
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