Assassination rotation and anticipation

90 Troll Rogue
8585
Hey,

Just wanted some clarification on a few odd spots I've encountered playing Assassination. I know there are conflicts, and the general rule is to always avoid energy capping and clip envenoms if you have to, but I've had a few situations that seem a little more complicated. So, theoretical situation: you're at 4 combo points, don't have the envenom buff up, plenty of time left on rupture, and you have around 70-80 energy. Is it better to just envenom and get the buff up, or mutilate to make sure you're getting the 5 combo point finisher but having to spend more time without the envenom buff? I've been leaning towards using mutilate and getting the 5 point finisher. But it just feels like it takes forever after you mutilate and then wait to pool a decent amount of energy before using envenom.

There are similar issues I've ran into that usually involve Shadow Blades. Say you're at 5 combo points, have 2 seconds left on the envenom buff, and you're at 55-60 energy. If you mutilate again, you can avoid clipping the envenom buff by waiting to envenom and just grabbing anticipation charges. However, if you do mutilate, it takes a while to get back up to having enough energy pooled to take full advantage of envenom, leaving a seemingly undesirably large amount of time without the envenom buff.

These are definitely edge cases where it probably doesn't make a huge difference either way, but I'd like to hear what people think the best way to go is so we can fully take advantage of anticipation.
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90 Undead Rogue
11130
first situation use mutilate, there is no reason with anticipation anymore to not use all your finishers at 5cp (other than opening rupture and snd ofc)

the second case is harder and you could use your vanish->free mutilate during this situation but that is only every 3 minutes. maximizing envenom uptime and usage is the name of the game and honestly I would just envenom and wait.
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90 Worgen Rogue
6700
For the record, this is based off of assuming the following priority for asssassination rogues: SnD > Rupture > combo points > envenom

For the first situation, envenom first. You then mutilate and have extra poison procs on your mutilate strikes, resulting in an overall DPS increase (You're not squeezing more than 2 attacks out of that 1 second difference) AND you're setting yourself up for the next envenom already, giving you overall more uptime, since in the 5 seconds envenom will last, you will regenerate 50 + haste + 18.75 (average) energy, plenty of time for that second mutilate and to still minimize envenom downtime.

Second situation, I'd say wait that extra second (unless shadowblades is going to drop and you have room for all the CPs) before refreshing envenom, then mutilate.
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90 Human Rogue
9230
As Tichar said, first situation Envenom. You can hit back-to-back Mutilates during the debuff if you've pooled 80 energy.

Second situation is somewhat tricky, but unless you're horribly unlucky you should be getting enough energy back from VW to allow for a Mutilate before casting Envenom and still have plenty of energy to hit a couple more while the debuff is up, and this is assuming you don't get a timely Dispatch proc.

Really loving the fluidity and complexity of Assassination's rotation with energy pooling, Anticipation and free Dispatch procs. I don't think the spec has ever been more fun than it is right now.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
12305
With anticipation your envenoms should be 5 points with pretty much zero exceptions. Assassination has a lot of wait time, but that's how it's properly played. It's not something to actively avoid.

For the second option, you can pool up to 80-90 and clip envenom at 1 second remaining without losing envenom uptime. Pooling that high should be the exception rather than the rule, though.
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90 Troll Rogue
8585
Thanks for the responses guys. I think the fact that we got varied responses really speaks to Bushido's point about the fluidity and complexity of the spec.

So we seem evenly split on the first instance. I am curious though, Verelyse, why you say pooling energy that high should be an exception rather than the rule? It seems to me that so long as I don't cap (and it's pretty easy to avoid capping even around 80 or 90 energy) then I'm getting basically 2 mutilates right after envenom, where if I pooled less (say, 60) then I'm only going to get one mutilate right away. Are you afraid of a VW proc causing a temporary energy cap? The only problem I've had at energy levels that high is running into a dispatch proc at 90+ energy with low combo points. In that situation, you have to either hit dispatch and risk energy capping or push mutilate and potentially overwrite blindside.

For the second scenario, I probably should have stipulated 3-4 seconds left on the envenom buff instead of 2. The basic question boils down to: Is it better to clip the envenom buff by 1-2 seconds, or delay envenom by 3-4 seconds by using anticipation but avoid clipping?

One more odd scenario I meant to ask about: 5 combo points, a decent amount of energy, (50-60) and 3-4 seconds left on both rupture and envenom. So the options seem to be: wait, and just refresh rupture with 5 combo points (possibly using a mutilate to gain anticipation charges and avoid capping if there's a VW proc) or press envenom immediately, mutilate, and refresh rupture with 2-3 combo points. I've been leaning towards just waiting and refreshing the 5 point rupture if for no other reason than the second route is pretty tight, and you can risk a second of downtime on rupture which is a no-no. But I'm open of trying the immediate envenom if people think that's better.

Thanks for all your thoughts, really appreciate. The EJ assassination thread for mists is a little light right now, so it's great to be able to get good answers here :).
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
12305
11/30/2012 08:33 AMPosted by Vezax
I am curious though, Verelyse, why you say pooling energy that high should be an exception rather than the rule? It seems to me that so long as I don't cap (and it's pretty easy to avoid capping even around 80 or 90 energy) then I'm getting basically 2 mutilates right after envenom, where if I pooled less (say, 60) then I'm only going to get one mutilate right away. Are you afraid of a VW proc causing a temporary energy cap? The only problem I've had at energy levels that high is running into a dispatch proc at 90+ energy with low combo points. In that situation, you have to either hit dispatch and risk energy capping or push mutilate and potentially overwrite blindside.

I should've clarified, it depends if you're expertise capped or not. If you're not expertise capped and get dodged, pushing 90 energy is a bit high. But I also haven't played assassination recently, and wasn't thinking about how it's a bit slower than in Cataclysm, so it shouldn't be an issue I guess...

Recollections are just hazy.

For the rest... personally when in doubt I envenom, but I can't swear that it's the most optimal response. Someone who's played assassination more recently should probably expand on that question.
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90 Human Rogue
9230
One more odd scenario I meant to ask about: 5 combo points, a decent amount of energy, (50-60) and 3-4 seconds left on both rupture and envenom. So the options seem to be: wait, and just refresh rupture with 5 combo points (possibly using a mutilate to gain anticipation charges and avoid capping if there's a VW proc) or press envenom immediately, mutilate, and refresh rupture with 2-3 combo points. I've been leaning towards just waiting and refreshing the 5 point rupture if for no other reason than the second route is pretty tight, and you can risk a second of downtime on rupture which is a no-no. But I'm open of trying the immediate envenom if people think that's better.

Thanks for all your thoughts, really appreciate. The EJ assassination thread for mists is a little light right now, so it's great to be able to get good answers here :).


When I find myself in this situation, I'll look at what's available to me. Since the rotation is much less static than just mut-mut-envenom, there is a good chance you'll get a free Dispatch proc or VW giving you enough energy back to build up 4-5 Anticipation charges within that window before Rupture and Envenom are falling off. If both of those things happen, even better. If that happens to be the case, I personally would clip the last second of Rupture with my 5 cps and cast a 4 or 5-point Envenom immediately after with my Ancticipation charges. In a raid setting, Dispatch procs seem to come pretty quickly so you can sort of bank on getting them in these types of scenarios.

Thanks for starting the thread ;] These are the types of Rogue discussions I like to see and engage in rather than "OMG BLIZZ FIX".
Edited by Bushido on 11/30/2012 9:44 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
11130
my reasoning for your first situation is that at 4 cps you have a 20% chance of not getting your energy return, lower damage on evenom, and less total time over a largely static energy pool of envenom uptime. the anticipation cps will just make your rotation after it smoother and you should make up for any loss with the guarantee of the energy return and a larger amount of time overall of envenom uptime.



For the second scenario, I probably should have stipulated 3-4 seconds left on the envenom buff instead of 2. The basic question boils down to: Is it better to clip the envenom buff by 1-2 seconds, or delay envenom by 3-4 seconds by using anticipation but avoid clipping?


for this one the optimal solution is the use of anticipation to maximize the envenom uptime

One more odd scenario I meant to ask about: 5 combo points, a decent amount of energy, (50-60) and 3-4 seconds left on both rupture and envenom. So the options seem to be: wait, and just refresh rupture with 5 combo points (possibly using a mutilate to gain anticipation charges and avoid capping if there's a VW proc) or press envenom immediately, mutilate, and refresh rupture with 2-3 combo points. I've been leaning towards just waiting and refreshing the 5 point rupture if for no other reason than the second route is pretty tight, and you can risk a second of downtime on rupture which is a no-no. But I'm open of trying the immediate envenom if people think that's better.


again the use of anticipation seems optimal, as I said before other than the opening 2 finishers to get everything rolling all finishers can and should be 5pt.
Edited by Sneakyhobos on 11/30/2012 10:09 AM PST
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