Illegal or not?

90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/06/2012 11:07 AMPosted by Maoseitun
Yeah I'm not so sure that that would happen. Remember that Death Knights were practically trained to kill citizens. If anyone knows anything about Death Knights it'd be not to create a mob to get rid of them. I think if anything the general populace would be afraid of them. That said there's no reason for them not to be afraid of them, their entire being is about this type of stuff. In order to discourage fear about them they'd have to be the exact opposite of themselves, which is well impossible as long as they're alive. They're practically living embodiments of death itself.


If the citizens come after the Death Knight, and the Death Knight kills - even in self-defense, how do you think guards, soldiers, etc. are going to treat the spectacle of a bloodied Death Knight standing over the carcasses of a bunch of civilians?
To the normal civilian do you really think they'd think that far ahead? All they need to worry about is the first thing: the Death Knights are trained serial murderers and they don't want something like that happening to them. Or even something more simple about it, perhaps they get an evil vibe from the death knights.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/06/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Vynathlon
To the normal civilian do you really think they'd think that far ahead? All they need to worry about is the first thing: the Death Knights are trained serial murderers and they don't want something like that happening to them. Or even something more simple about it, perhaps they get an evil vibe from the death knights.


It's not about thinking ahead or anything of the sort. If they get whipped into a frenzy and chase down a Death Knight and he ends up killing any of them, anyone coming to break up the mob would just see a being that is more than capable of killing a regular civilian standing over the bodies of multiple slain civilians.

So the Death Knight can't lash out and fight off his or her attackers without suffering consequences.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/06/2012 12:01 PMPosted by Maoseitun
To the normal civilian do you really think they'd think that far ahead? All they need to worry about is the first thing: the Death Knights are trained serial murderers and they don't want something like that happening to them. Or even something more simple about it, perhaps they get an evil vibe from the death knights.


It's not about thinking ahead or anything of the sort. If they get whipped into a frenzy and chase down a Death Knight and he ends up killing any of them, anyone coming to break up the mob would just see a being that is more than capable of killing a regular civilian standing over the bodies of multiple slain civilians.

So the Death Knight can't lash out and fight off his or her attackers without suffering consequences.
I think you're taking things out of context. Death Knights are trained killers nothing more. What you're describing seems to be a scenario that could apply to anyone. I'm pretty sure that this type of case would have extraneous circumstances to it. I mean really, you can either kill them, escape, or allow them to kill you. And in a Death Knight oriented city I doubt that the city itself would allow the public's hatred to rise enough to try to expel the death knights, especially considering that they would probably know what would happen when death knights are faced with death as well.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/06/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Vynathlon
I think you're taking things out of context. Death Knights are trained killers nothing more. What you're describing seems to be a scenario that could apply to anyone. I'm pretty sure that this type of case would have extraneous circumstances to it. I mean really, you can either kill them, escape, or allow them to kill you. And in a Death Knight oriented city I doubt that the city itself would allow the public's hatred to rise enough to try to expel the death knights, especially considering that they would probably know what would happen when death knights are faced with death as well.


One problem with the class bit - none of them are undead killing machines. I mean really, I think the Forsaken are the only ones who are going to accept Death Knights fully and completely. All the other races would pity or tolerate them, or in extreme circumstances utterly despise their presence in their city.

Also... Death Knight oriented city?... You mean Acherus?

There are no cities oriented toward Death Knights aside from Acherus... and the Undercity, which is oriented toward all undead.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
If an angry mob attacks a death knight, the death knight has a few options:

1. She can try to scare them off. While none of the DK powers mechanically cause fear, they're all pretty grim and intimidating: Army of the Dead would probably scare off a small mob all by itself. Asphyxiate is great if you have a leader to shut down. The original Lichborne granted a 25% chance for attacks to miss because of how horrifying the DK appeared.

2. She can run - either out of town, or for a sworn authority. You don't have to kill anyone in self-defense if they can't hit you.

3. She can kill everyone and death gate out to Acherus. Investigation would turn up that a mob tried to attack a death knight and was butchered for it. What happens afterward is anybody's guess.

4. She can kill one as an example. This falls into the "scare them off" category, a kind of "if you mess with me you will end up like this idiot" message.

12/06/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Vynathlon
Death Knights are trained killers nothing more.

But they are much, much more: They are an embodiment of some of the most horrible events to befall the human kingdoms. They're all literal sadists. Killing is what they do, but their function is to sow fear and misery.

Right now, they're very much a "pay evil unto evil" force.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
1. She can try to scare them off. While none of the DK powers mechanically cause fear, they're all pretty grim and intimidating: Army of the Dead would probably scare off a small mob all by itself. Asphyxiate is great if you have a leader to shut down. The original Lichborne granted a 25% chance for attacks to miss because of how horrifying the DK appeared.

2. She can run - either out of town, or for a sworn authority. You don't have to kill anyone in self-defense if they can't hit you.


These are the only two viable options, and the first one could foster some of its own repercussions, but the second two options listed are...

Well, they won't do good for Death Knight acceptance in that area.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
One problem with the class bit - none of them are undead killing machines. I mean really, I think the Forsaken are the only ones who are going to accept Death Knights fully and completely. All the other races would pity or tolerate them, or in extreme circumstances utterly despise their presence in their city.
That's my point though. They can hate them all they want but they dare not lay a hand on them for fear that they would be killed. In the case of a mob the death knight would just kill them all, so anyone who has a grudge against them just has to deal with it unless they want to be killed.

Also... Death Knight oriented city?... You mean Acherus?

There are no cities oriented toward Death Knights aside from Acherus... and the Undercity, which is oriented toward all undead.
I was referring to cities that acknowledge Death Knights, like Stormwind or Orgrimmar. In those cities, Varian and Thrall already told the city to deal with their presence because they're their allies.

1. She can try to scare them off. While none of the DK powers mechanically cause fear, they're all pretty grim and intimidating: Army of the Dead would probably scare off a small mob all by itself. Asphyxiate is great if you have a leader to shut down. The original Lichborne granted a 25% chance for attacks to miss because of how horrifying the DK appeared.
With a mob there really is no type of fear with them. If you have an angry mob determined to kill a certain death knight you would have to cause something really big such as cause part of the architecture to collapse. Killing the mob leader would either have no effect or fill some of them with righteous vengeance and try to avenge him. Until Death Knights are gifted with the ability to cause fear on a massive scale I don't think your idea would work out very well.

3. She can kill everyone and death gate out to Acherus. Investigation would turn up that a mob tried to attack a death knight and was butchered for it. What happens afterward is anybody's guess.

4. She can kill one as an example. This falls into the "scare them off" category, a kind of "if you mess with me you will end up like this idiot" message.
This is kind of my point though. In the case of an angry mob trying to kill them Death Knights can't really do much else. It eventually comes to kill or be killed, and in the case that your death knight comes to try to hide somewhere to get away from them but by doing so you can't escape there's really not much else you could do unless you want to kill yourself.

But they are much, much more: They are an embodiment of some of the most horrible events to befall the human kingdoms. They're all literal sadists. Killing is what they do, but their function is to sow fear and misery.

Right now, they're very much a "pay evil unto evil" force.
Right I know all that, I'm just saying in the case of a mob they are pretty much the same as ordinary people albeit superpowered ordinary people. They don't really have the ability to teleport anywhere they want or change the minds of a people on a massive scale just on a whim.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Vynathlon
That's my point though. They can hate them all they want but they dare not lay a hand on them for fear that they would be killed.


Mob mentality = irrational state of mind. Fear of death isn't going to be apparent until death happens, and then you either cause a route or galvanize them into trying to kill you.

12/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Vynathlon
In the case of a mob the death knight would just kill them all, so anyone who has a grudge against them just has to deal with it unless they want to be killed.


And then the Death Knight gets hunted down by paladins...

12/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Vynathlon
I was referring to cities that acknowledge Death Knights, like Stormwind or Orgrimmar. In those cities, Varian and Thrall already told the city to deal with their presence because they're their allies.


Yeah... go tell a Lordaeronian survivor to accept a Death Knight.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
12/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Vynathlon
They don't really have the ability to teleport anywhere they want or change the minds of a people on a massive scale just on a whim.

Well, they can open a portal to Acherus and travel there.

Also, mobs can be irrational, but if a screaming mob of peasants runs into a shrieking mob of ghouls - even if the ghouls aren't actually eating anyone - they're going to freak out. They're a mob, not !@# users.

12/06/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Maoseitun
And then the Death Knight gets hunted down by paladins...

That depends. Paladins are about justice. That can mean shortsighted "KILL THE EVIL ZOMBIE" justice, or it can actually mean, yannow, justice.

12/06/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Yeah... go tell a Lordaeronian survivor to accept a Death Knight.

But they did... Death Knights are, or were, welcome in Theramore, Stormwind, and Gilneas.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/06/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Yeah... go tell a Lordaeronian survivor to accept a Death Knight.
A Lordaeronian survivor wouldn't have any bias against Death Knights, just against Arthas himself. At the time that Arthas brought about the destruction of Lordaeron he was the only death knight around. To see other death knights exist and fighting against Arthas imo would be more of a sign of hope rather than hatred.

12/06/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Maoseitun
And then the Death Knight gets hunted down by paladins...
And then someone intervenes... These are extraneous circumstances because it involves a mob of people after someone. What you seem to be suggesting is that when the Death Knight is surrounded with no way out that he takes what the angry mob wants and to just give his life. Do you think any Death Knight or non-paladin would even consider doing that?

12/06/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Mob mentality = irrational state of mind. Fear of death isn't going to be apparent until death happens, and then you either cause a route or galvanize them into trying to kill you.
Yeah and I guess the skulls and blood on their armor mean nothing to them then? Perhaps the ghoul that they bring around as well? Hell even the Death Knight's main source of transportation has skulls hanging from it. If you're really saying that no citizen would even think that a Death Knight is not only skilled in killing but even lives a lifestyle from it then you'd have another thing coming.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
That depends. Paladins are about justice. That can mean shortsighted "KILL THE EVIL ZOMBIE" justice, or it can actually mean, yannow, justice.


How many paladins out there see the bigger picture? :P

12/06/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Krinu
But they did... Death Knights are, or were, welcome in Theramore, Stormwind, and Gilneas.


Well, yes, by game mechanics they were...

But look at Thassarian, and his squad, and the treatment they received in Northrend from the Alliance.

12/06/2012 07:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
A Lordaeronian survivor wouldn't have any bias against Death Knights, just against Arthas himself.


... No, they'd have a bias against Death Knights and undead in general. Arthas didn't single-handedly wipe out Lordaeron.

12/06/2012 07:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
At the time that Arthas brought about the destruction of Lordaeron he was the only death knight around.


Marwyn, Falric and Thassarian beg to differ.

12/06/2012 07:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
To see other death knights exist and fighting against Arthas imo would be more of a sign of hope rather than hatred.


Not all Lordaeron survivors would see this. If you reread what I said, it was civilians who would have the easiest time of being riled up. Soldiers would probably tend more toward respecting a Death Knight - as they would have undoubtedly been saved by one by now - than hate one.

12/06/2012 07:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
And then someone intervenes... These are extraneous circumstances because it involves a mob of people after someone. What you seem to be suggesting is that when the Death Knight is surrounded with no way out that he takes what the angry mob wants and to just give his life. Do you think any Death Knight or non-paladin would even consider doing that?


... I didn't say that was their own way out.

You thought that's what I meant.

Attempting to frighten the mob off and fleeing are the best bets at a Death Knight getting away without severe repercussions.

12/06/2012 07:28 PMPosted by Vynathlon
Yeah and I guess the skulls and blood on their armor mean nothing to them then? Perhaps the ghoul that they bring around as well? Hell even the Death Knight's main source of transportation has skulls hanging from it. If you're really saying that no citizen would even think that a Death Knight is not only skilled in killing but even lives a lifestyle from it then you'd have another thing coming.


Lemme quote something of yours now.

12/06/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Vynathlon
With a mob there really is no type of fear with them. If you have an angry mob determined to kill a certain death knight you would have to cause something really big such as cause part of the architecture to collapse. Killing the mob leader would either have no effect or fill some of them with righteous vengeance and try to avenge him. Until Death Knights are gifted with the ability to cause fear on a massive scale I don't think your idea would work out very well.


Your own words about the mob and fear.

Thank you and goodnight.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/06/2012 11:45 PMPosted by Maoseitun
... No, they'd have a bias against Death Knights and undead in general. Arthas didn't single-handedly wipe out Lordaeron.
No actually he kind of did. He returned to Lordaeron, entered his castle, and used Frostmourne to kill his own father. Haven't you played Warcraft 3? There's a cutscene completely devoted to it.

12/06/2012 11:45 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Attempting to frighten the mob off and fleeing are the best bets at a Death Knight getting away without severe repercussions.
Right, but what do they do when they've been cornered and there is nowhere else to run to without getting past the mob? Also the mere sign of them running away kind of would encourage the mob to try to kill them, so scaring them away after they can't run anymore in my opinion wouldn't work at all.

Your own words about the mob and fear.

Thank you and goodnight.
I was talking about creating the mob not actually being in the mob. By the time that they actually organize a mob there really isn't much stopping them aside from death, physical damage, or somehow escaping them. But what I was talking about is that they would be deterred from even starting a riot because of the death knight's menacing aura. With their presences around the peasants likely wouldn't try to mess with them unless the death knights decide to do something out of the ordinary which would grant their attention, or else if someone else manages to create the mob. But the idea of being leader of a mob devoted to driving out a creature of death sounds really stupid and deadly imo. They'd have to have a really good reason for doing it, and to betray the king's word as well.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
4880
Not in my backyard.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/07/2012 12:43 AMPosted by Vynathlon
No actually he kind of did. He returned to Lordaeron, entered his castle, and used Frostmourne to kill his own father. Haven't you played Warcraft 3? There's a cutscene completely devoted to it.


So Terenas is now the only citizen of Lordaeron?

12/07/2012 12:43 AMPosted by Vynathlon
Right, but what do they do when they've been cornered and there is nowhere else to run to without getting past the mob? Also the mere sign of them running away kind of would encourage the mob to try to kill them, so scaring them away after they can't run anymore in my opinion wouldn't work at all.


Bulling through the mob seems a good bet - Death Knights don't feel discomfort to the same levels as a mortal, they can be armoured at all times comfortable. They're also damn strong, so it's possible to basically barrel through a mob of civilians as a Death Knight without killing any of them in the process.

12/07/2012 12:43 AMPosted by Vynathlon
They'd have to have a really good reason for doing it, and to betray the king's word as well.


You mean like surviving the fall of their kingdom which was perpetrated at the hands of undead monstrosities and which is currently in control of even more monstrous undead than those that drove them out, slaughtered their family and loved ones in cold blood and brought them back as mindless servants of the Traitor Prince?

Think that's a pretty damn good reason.
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This is death knight thread now! Warlocks GTFO.
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10 Worgen Druid
7360
It really depends on which city, i'd imagine. If you have a demon out in Orgrimmar, you'd probably get gutted and dumped in Thunder Ridge. In Thunder Bluff, the Tauren probably would just not appreciate it. They most likely would refuse to sell to you, but nothing more than that and disapproving glances. In Undercity, nobody would really care, and in Silvermoon, you'd probably be arrested or something.

For Alliance cities, all would probably arrest you, if the public didn't stone you to death first >.>


Pretty much right accept for Silvermoon. If you are in the row your good if you are any where else it would probably be seen as improper or impolite to have your ugly vile demonic slave walking around with you. Warlocks are much more respected in Undercity and Silvermoon.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Req
14345
12/07/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Maoseitun
So Terenas is now the only citizen of Lordaeron?
No, but he's the king of Lordaeron, and with him dead Lordaeron essentially died. With rampaging Scourge, and the majority of the Lordaeronian military dead from Arthas's expedition it essentially turned what remains of Lordaeron into an anarchy, forcing them to rely on outside sources like the Knights of the Silver Hand to protect them.

12/07/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Maoseitun
Bulling through the mob seems a good bet - Death Knights don't feel discomfort to the same levels as a mortal, they can be armoured at all times comfortable. They're also damn strong, so it's possible to basically barrel through a mob of civilians as a Death Knight without killing any of them in the process.
Bulling through a mob? That's your main solution to being surrounded by a mob wanting to kill you? You think the mob would let you free when you try going through them? With the amount of weapons they would be carrying? Fire no matter who the recipient is is always a nice persuasion tool and fortunately most riots come with them. With Death Knights being undead and having an affinity to cold magic I would have to say that with hundreds of angry civilians burning you at once would really cease your fruitless efforts at escaping.

And really, bulling through the mob? You've come to this idea after days of thinking about it, do you really think that in the heat of the moment that any Death Knight would suddenly come to the conclusion of bulling through the mobs? When faced with a group of angry people who want nothing more than to kill you do you really think that these trained serial murderers' first thought would be to bull through the mob? They would be generous by running away at all.

You mean like surviving the fall of their kingdom which was perpetrated at the hands of undead monstrosities and which is currently in control of even more monstrous undead than those that drove them out, slaughtered their family and loved ones in cold blood and brought them back as mindless servants of the Traitor Prince?

Think that's a pretty damn good reason.
Ah smart idea. When their beloved king specifically tells them that these "undead monstrosities" are now working against their most hated enemy and likely will give them an edge against the Lich King their first instinct is to form up a giant mob to push them out of town. If anything this seems more like something the Cult of the Damned would try to do.
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90 Dwarf Mage
12450
12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
No, but he's the king of Lordaeron, and with him dead Lordaeron essentially died.


I'm glad we're glossing over Calia Menethil so casually...

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
With rampaging Scourge, and the majority of the Lordaeronian military dead from Arthas's expedition it essentially turned what remains of Lordaeron into an anarchy, forcing them to rely on outside sources like the Knights of the Silver Hand to protect them.


Uhm, there were enough Lordaeronian survivors to form an army that challenged the Scourge in the Plaguelands.

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
Bulling through a mob? That's your main solution to being surrounded by a mob wanting to kill you? You think the mob would let you free when you try going through them?


An undead with superhuman strength, thickly armoured, charging through unarmoured civilians who have, at most, rusty swords and axes. It's not so much as 'letting' as 'powerful force moving through weaker objects'.

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
Fire no matter who the recipient is is always a nice persuasion tool and fortunately most riots come with them.


Undead - fire hurts but they can withstand the pain.

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
With Death Knights being undead and having an affinity to cold magic I would have to say that with hundreds of angry civilians burning you at once would really cease your fruitless efforts at escaping.


I'd say that that would give them an edge - armour themselves in frost, let it take the most of the fire.

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
And really, bulling through the mob? You've come to this idea after days of thinking about it, do you really think that in the heat of the moment that any Death Knight would suddenly come to the conclusion of bulling through the mobs?


Actually, that was my second idea after running - you're the one who assumed my only idea was surrendering themselves to death. So, yes, I'd think a Death Knight could come up with that rather quickly.

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
When faced with a group of angry people who want nothing more than to kill you do you really think that these trained serial murderers' first thought would be to bull through the mob? They would be generous by running away at all.


And then they get hunted down and killed by people capable of killing Death Knights...

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
When their beloved king


Their beloved king was killed.

12/07/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Vynathlon
specifically tells them that these "undead monstrosities" are now working against their most hated enemy and likely will give them an edge against the Lich King their first instinct is to form up a giant mob to push them out of town. If anything this seems more like something the Cult of the Damned would try to do.


Here, this guy murdered your entire family. But now he's helping you catch the guy who turned him into a murderer.

Work alongside him.
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It really depends on which city, i'd imagine. If you have a demon out in Orgrimmar, you'd probably get gutted and dumped in Thunder Ridge. In Thunder Bluff, the Tauren probably would just not appreciate it. They most likely would refuse to sell to you, but nothing more than that and disapproving glances. In Undercity, nobody would really care, and in Silvermoon, you'd probably be arrested or something.

For Alliance cities, all would probably arrest you, if the public didn't stone you to death first >.>


Pretty much right accept for Silvermoon. If you are in the row your good if you are any where else it would probably be seen as improper or impolite to have your ugly vile demonic slave walking around with you. Warlocks are much more respected in Undercity and Silvermoon.


Except they're not respected in Silvermoon anymore, or shouldn't be.

I recall demons corrupting their prince, taking over the Isle of Quel'Danas, and nearly blowing up the world (again) being one of the major events in the Sin'dorei's short history.
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90 Worgen Warrior
9380
This thread is goin' off the rails on a crazy train....
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