Moral swap?

100 Human Warrior
16460
12/02/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Sylassanna
People could argue that the Alliance made a show of nobility, but were really corrupt, rigid, and intolerant underneath - while the Horde were rough but valued honor and were close to the spirits/the land.


I never actually got this feeling in Vanilla WoW since the corruption stemmed from Onyxia. The Alliance typically didn't concern itself with the Horde in questing. Even Night elves, who literally had Horde in their back yard killing their soldiers for fun, weren't concerning themselves with the Horde.
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86 Undead Death Knight
3690
12/02/2012 06:40 PMPosted by Huabao
so genocide against ALL of them seems the most practical solution.


Because instead of trying to end this pointless war lets kick it up a notch and elevate it to an even more pointless level. Also it would not be practical at all, it would be a waste of resources and lives to continue to fight against a defeated foe.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Everyone of Azeroth must learn, sooner or later, that the Horde is not "visiting" this world. We are here. We are staying.

EDIT:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30127/threat-from-dojan


So because they say that they want something, they automatically have a right to it?
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90 Goblin Mage
8380
Not that I have anything against the Horde or more specifically Orcs personally, but I don't see how Horde players can defend the Orc vantage point when the whole reason they are here AT ALL is because they INVADED Azeroth with the intent to wipe it out.

Now they QQ about how they have the right to be ther too. Excuse me? You weren't even born here :P

Do you forget that they also were part of the group that helped save Azeroth as well? Orcs, humans, and night elves. Take any one of them out of the equation, Archimonde would have won at Hyjal and Azeroth would have been destroyed.

Like it or not, that has earned them the right to call Azeroth home.

Don't feel too bad that you failed to account for this. You're not the only one to forget out of convenience and you won't be the last.

But then again, this is all completely moot because it's not like Horde needs Alliance permission to live on Azeroth anyway.

Everyone of Azeroth must learn, sooner or later, that the Horde is not "visiting" this world. We are here. We are staying.

EDIT:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=30127/threat-from-dojan


So because they say that they want something, they automatically have a right to it?

Depends on what it is they actually want. Since we're talking about Horde calling Azeroth home, then yes they do have a right to it.
Edited by Jetzeppelin on 12/3/2012 12:48 PM PST
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90 Undead Hunter
3775
I for one actually like this horde where it is right now.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Depends on what it is they actually want. Since we're talking about Horde calling Azeroth home, then yes they do have a right to it.


And if they decide that Ashenvale is "home" too? What about when they decide that Stormwind is their "home?"

Sounds like lebensraum to me.
Edited by Vyrin on 12/3/2012 1:07 PM PST
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90 Goblin Mage
8380
12/03/2012 01:07 PMPosted by Vyrin
Depends on what it is they actually want. Since we're talking about Horde calling Azeroth home, then yes they do have a right to it.


And if they decide that Ashenvale is "home" too? What about when they decide that Stormwind is their "home?"

Well that's a different story altogether. You see, goblins have dibs on ownership of Ashenvale. This was in the contract that Garrosh agreed to when we signed on with the Horde but he probably never actually read.

Oh well, sucks to be him.

As far as who gets to own Stormwind and surrounding areas, we offered it to Vol'jin and the Darkspears since that was probably all troll land originally, but he declined and said they were content with their island home. Right now discussions for it are still on the table, but goblins are the frontrunners on it too.
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90 Dwarf Warlock
4615
Not that I have anything against the Horde or more specifically Orcs personally, but I don't see how Horde players can defend the Orc vantage point when the whole reason they are here AT ALL is because they INVADED Azeroth with the intent to wipe it out.

Now they QQ about how they have the right to be ther too. Excuse me? You weren't even born here :P

Do you forget that they also were part of the group that helped save Azeroth as well? Orcs, humans, and night elves. Take any one of them out of the equation, Archimonde would have won at Hyjal and Azeroth would have been destroyed.

Like it or not, that has earned them the right to call Azeroth home.

Don't feel too bad that you failed to account for this. You're not the only one to forget out of convenience and you won't be the last.

But then again, this is all completely moot because it's not like Horde needs Alliance permission to live on Azeroth anyway.



So because they say that they want something, they automatically have a right to it?

Depends on what it is they actually want. Since we're talking about Horde calling Azeroth home, then yes they do have a right to it.


Which wouldn't have happened if the orcs had never gotten together with the burning legion in the first place.

It was the orcs warlocks that found Azeroth wasn't it? If there were no bad guy Orcs, the Legion may never have come to Azeroth in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's been forever since I played any of the Warcraft games and lord knows I have not kept up with all the new lore written.
Edited by Greenbomber on 12/3/2012 1:30 PM PST
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90 Goblin Mage
8380
It was the orcs warlocks that found Azeroth wasn't it? If there were no bad guy Orcs, the Legion may never have come to Azeroth in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's been forever since I played any of the Warcraft games and lord knows I have not kept up with all the new lore written.

War of Ancients.
It was ten thousand years before orcs ever set foot on Azeroth.
The Legion has had their eyes on it ever since.
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12/03/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Tevinter
so genocide against ALL of them seems the most practical solution.


Because instead of trying to end this pointless war lets kick it up a notch and elevate it to an even more pointless level. Also it would not be practical at all, it would be a waste of resources and lives to continue to fight against a defeated foe.


Note I don't want the horde genocided(which would never happen because it's a game and Blizzard needs both sides to exist). But, realistically, the Alliance thinks they just can't trust the Orcs anymore(and certainly not the Forsaken), even after being given all these chances. In the event of an overwhelming Alliance victory, I just can't see what they would ask for or do that would make them feel comfortable save killing all Orcs and Forsaken.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
12/03/2012 01:53 PMPosted by Huabao
I just can't see what they would ask for or do that would make them feel comfortable save killing all Orcs and Forsaken.


I don't see them wiping out all the orcs. It just doesn't feel like something they'd try. If it came down to necessity? Sure. But my first guess would be a heavily occupied and monitored Orgrimmar and Durotar.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
6945
12/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Jetzeppelin
It was the orcs warlocks that found Azeroth wasn't it? If there were no bad guy Orcs, the Legion may never have come to Azeroth in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's been forever since I played any of the Warcraft games and lord knows I have not kept up with all the new lore written.

War of Ancients.
It was ten thousand years before orcs ever set foot on Azeroth.
The Legion has had their eyes on it ever since.


Yet, never managed to send a sizable invasion to Azeroth post WotA before they corrupted the orcs.

The argument isn't that the orcs must leave Azeroth, I think everyone else would be willing to comprimise if that was the only problem.

The argument is that the Horde needs to stop taking what they want and slaughter anyone who stands in their way, because when "anyone" fights back, it becomes a whine-fest of "Oh, poor Horde, they were just trying to get what they need from those greedy Alliance!", when it should be "Poor orcs, It is a shame they can't figure out basic diplomancy. They would be so much better off."
Edited by Malodin on 12/3/2012 3:58 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Mage
5215
12/03/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Malodin
Yet, never managed to send a sizable invasion to Azeroth post WotA before they corrupted the orcs.


The Legion needs someone on the Azeroth end to complete a connection so they can get there. Usually by summoning them either via portal magic or constructing something that allows their passage like the Dark Portal. However these all require an advanced understanding of arcane magic which few were using after the WoTA. The Night Elves had abandoned it and the would be High Elves used it very, very carefully to prevent another invasion. Setting up their Wardstones to hide their magical activities and whatnot.

Demons only really started to reappear once humanity learned to use the arcane and at that point the demon's advances where kept in check by the Guardians of Tirisfal, at least until Medivh went on his stabby, stabby, kill, kill phase.
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42 Draenei Mage
550

The argument is that the Horde needs to stop taking what they want and slaughter anyone who stands in their way, because when "anyone" fights back, it becomes a whine-fest of "Oh, poor Horde, they were just trying to get what they need from those greedy Alliance!", when it should be "Poor orcs, It is a shame they can't figure out basic diplomancy. They would be so much better off."


It's actually kind of interesting. A group of supposedly downtrodden people who want to force those who are more well off than they are to subsidize their life. They claim victimization whenever the second group refuses to utterly capitulate to them, even if they are offering other help in a lesser capacity.

Sound familiar?
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
Do you forget that they also were part of the group that helped save Azeroth as well? Orcs, humans, and night elves. Take any one of them out of the equation, Archimonde would have won at Hyjal and Azeroth would have been destroyed.

Like it or not, that has earned them the right to call Azeroth home.


The orcs might have the right to call Azeroth their home now (the taurens, trolls, goblins. Forsaken and Blood elves always lived here), but them helping save the world does NOT give them free rein to try and conquer the world. The Horde (mostly orcs and Forsaken) should stop provoking the Alliance and learn to live on their own lands

Just as the Horde is needed to protect Azeroth, so is the Alliance needed. In fact, the Alliance carries more of the weight in defending the world than the Horde does. So if the Horde wants to protect the world, it should stop killing the 60% or more of Azeroth's defenders.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
12/02/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Sylassanna
Then, on top of it, they had a bunch of "corruption" undertones going on in WoW itself. The Defias were running rampant, a black dragon was living in Stormwind Keep, and Staghelm was a giant jerk doing something sketchy with Morrowgrain. Horde-side, you had Thrall and his inspiring story and his "I love eeeveryone" mentality - and the Tauren, who were basically as innocent as an eight-foot-tall baby with giant horns.


Because the Horde didnt have its own "old Horde" and Burning Blade clan to deal with right? Not to mention Magatha and her ilk.(Never forget Smiling Jim!) Lets not forget the forsaken and there whole "death to the living" plot. Heck, the Alliance even tried to warn the Horde and our messenger got poisoned by the forsaken.

12/02/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Sylassanna
For a while, the two sides were pretty morally ambiguous. People could argue that the Alliance made a show of nobility, but were really corrupt, rigid, and intolerant underneath - while the Horde were rough but valued honor and were close to the spirits/the land.


Trying to turn Ashenvale into a parking lot shows just how close the Horde really is to the land.
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90 Goblin Mage
8380
12/03/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Malodin
Yet, never managed to send a sizable invasion to Azeroth post WotA before they corrupted the orcs.

Due in no small part to this line of dudes and dudettes called "The Guardians of Tirisfal". And even then there were still some incursions. The Avatar of Sargeras, until it was stopped by Aegwynn.

Ironic, don't you think, that it was the last Guardian who ended up being corrupted and was the one who opened the door and let the orcs into Azeroth?

12/03/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Kynrind
but them helping save the world does NOT give them free rein to try and conquer the world

Never said that it did. Glad we cleared that up.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
Never said that it did. Glad we cleared that up.


You might not have, but others have. When the crimes of the Horde are brought up, it's inevitable that someone brings up the Horde (orcs, since that is who we are usually talking about) helped save Azeroth at Hyjal, then at the Sunwell, Icecrown and with Deathwing. As if those actions excuse the tens of thousands of Alliance citizens the Horde has slaughtered in it's ruthless efforts to expand.

It got really bad when Cataclysm hit. Grievances against the Horde's actions and a lot of Horde players were saying, 'The Horde helped save the world and your butt, so don't judge us!". They were literally using that as justification for the attacks, as well as 'The orcs/Horde need Ashenvale/Alterac Valley/Arathi Basin/Hillsbrad and the Alliance is being mean for denying it to them'.
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42 Draenei Mage
550
12/03/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Kynrind
It got really bad when Cataclysm hit. Grievances against the Horde's actions and a lot of Horde players were saying, 'The Horde helped save the world and your butt, so don't judge us!". They were literally using that as justification for the attacks, as well as 'The orcs/Horde need Ashenvale/Alterac Valley/Arathi Basin/Hillsbrad and the Alliance is being mean for denying it to them'.


The horde is the 99%. The alliance the rich, entitled 1% that should be obligated to give surrender its own territory to the Horde.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
6945
12/03/2012 07:27 PMPosted by Mirari
It got really bad when Cataclysm hit. Grievances against the Horde's actions and a lot of Horde players were saying, 'The Horde helped save the world and your butt, so don't judge us!". They were literally using that as justification for the attacks, as well as 'The orcs/Horde need Ashenvale/Alterac Valley/Arathi Basin/Hillsbrad and the Alliance is being mean for denying it to them'.


The horde is the 99%. The alliance the rich, entitled 1% that should be obligated to give surrender its own territory to the Horde.


Except for the fact that the Alliance is NOWHERE near that vast gap. If anything, the Alliance would be larger than the Horde, as of now.

The Horde is made up of A few dozen ships worth of orcs, a near extinct troll tribe (Who also tagged along on those very same boats.), Tauren, Who've been damned near wiped out by the centaur, A race of elves who lost roughly 90% of their population in the last 20 years, A splinter-cell of undead Scourge and literally a YACHT"'s worth of goblins.

Meanwhile, The Alliance has the humans, who lost a large number of their population, have suffered NOWHERE near the population blows that most of their Horde counterparts had, You have the Dwarves, who, out of all the races have the most stable population. It would seem that, while at war, The Night elves aren't doing "horrid" population-wise.

Now, some races such as the Worgen, gnomes, and Draenei are in short demand, but nowhere near some of the Horde races.

Now, Try again, please.
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