@Death Knight QQ

80 Orc Death Knight
7955
12/02/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Rykinia
- No survival issues. It is a matter of learning to play. Stop asking for buffs and make do with what you have, QQing for buffs has made this game stupid easy to play.


says the hunter.

LvL a DK to 90, and try to do Arenas without a healer (1500+) let me know how it goes ;)...
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100 Human Death Knight
15225
Im guessing the OP is just looking at damage at the end of random BG's

12/02/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Rykinia
- Not weak.

I don't think this is a point, but i disagree

12/02/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Rykinia
- Highest consistent damage

Highest? Maybe. Certainly outside of burst Frost DK's in theory can do very good sustained damage. I think it could definetly be tuned down some actually, but we still need major buffs in different areas.

12/02/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Rykinia
- Plenty of up time

Again maybe in random BG's. Target rich, fighting over control points (minimizing kiting), other classes cc, makes us decent in BG's, but in arena? Nope, terrible. Can't break roots (outside of trinket) insanely slow, 1 gap closer. Your a hunter, go duel some DK's. If you are doing it right, I guarantee you that the DK will only be in melee range once every 25 seconds (Death Grip)

12/02/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Rykinia
- No survival issues

Major survivability issues and have been there for some time. It's not without justification that DK's are known as the squishyest class.
DK's have 2 def cds, AMS and IBF. AMS good against casters and dots, would be great to use offensively but we cant. 5sec duration. IBF, 20% reduction to all damage (laughable) 12sec duration. Both are silencable (which you do every 20secs). So silencing DK=win. DK's potentially have 2 heals, Lichborne and Death Pact. Very good heals, except again both silenceable, and very expensive. Blood presence is a 10% reduction and increased armor and stamina, but sucks away damage big time.

Looking at a DK's toolkit and comparing it to any other classes it's clear that Blizzard are consciously trying to keep DK's in check. The conspiricy is that Blizzard deliberatly make classes OP then UP in an attempt to make player's play different classes. Looking at Dk's in MOP is pretty good evidence of that.

I agree that Hunter's aren't OP by the way
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90 Tauren Death Knight
0
I want to make a 3v3 with a monk and rogue and see if we win one game......*spoiler* we won't. Oh and your a hunter, shut up.
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100 Human Death Knight
11210
Gladiator Andry here.

Death Knights be fine. Learn to dispell Hunter's Master's Call.

Leave us where we are right now.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9185
"Love" when 2k heroes post absolute horse !@#$.
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90 Human Warrior
5445
Thanks for the insight Rikinia. DKs are indeed fine in your 1500 bracket. Anything over 1800 and they get blown up within a few seconds.

The only thing right about your post is "high damage." DKs probably have the worst mobility of any melee, and by far the worst survivability. Even rogues have better survivability right now. There are 4 basic gameplay elements in arena for a dps: Damage, CC, survivability, and mobility. DKs are near last in every category except damage. Buff survivability, and the class will be pretty well balanced.
Edited by Tyronus on 12/2/2012 10:24 PM PST
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100 Undead Warrior
18020
12/02/2012 07:47 PMPosted by Wubstep
DKs are fine.....DURING Anti-Magic Shield


AMS nvm Chaos Wave
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100 Human Death Knight
7580
Good sustained dmg yes. Mobility, absolutely atrocious for frost DKs (possibly the worst in the entire game) and soso for unholy. Plenty of uptime... nope. Survival, NOT a L2P issue, a problem with the class.

I have 3 90s, lvling my 4th. They're all geared, my main arena partner has 4 and 2 other close to 90. Only DK is this squishy. He blew up this one as feral under 3 sec with his CDs and there was nothing I could do at all, I even took descecrated grounds to break the initial stun (cause we don't have enough RP to use icebound fortitude to do it when we get stunned in an opener) and ghoul stun him. We ran kitty cleave last week on my warrior, his feral and with a hpally. We faced a team with a DK, we dropped him under 2 seconds from full health, no joke.

Every class pretty much has a defensive CD that makes you think twice or makes it a bad target. Ice block, deterrence, disperse, pally bubble, CloS+vanish, shield wall(+die by the sword+defensive stance+second wind all stacked on each other), teleport+vanish from druid, warlock 8 sec immunity and so on. DK has NOTHING. We can safely jump onto him and insta-gib him.

In 2s, my DK isn't too bad, my partner can keep me up and as unholy I can win. In 3s, there's no way the DK will survive if he gets focused.

L2P more classes than your hunter at lvl 90 and add a DK into the mix. You'll understand why DKs complain about survivability.
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100 Human Hunter
16410
I've healed and dpsed alongside dks. I've also played against them.

They aren't that bad off. No, I'm not basing this off of BGs, because well.. I don't do bgs.

Dks don't exactly need more mobility. Spammable slows and two death grips are enough to compensate. Dks were never a mobile class, they just made every other class feel immobile.

Again, just learn how to adapt. I play Marksmanship in the Beast Mastery season. Play Death Knights in a Warrior season. There's no difference.

If any class should be complaining about survivability it should be Rogues and Hunters.
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100 Human Hunter
16410
- No survival issues. It is a matter of learning to play. Stop asking for buffs and make do with what you have, QQing for buffs has made this game stupid easy to play.


says the hunter.

LvL a DK to 90, and try to do Arenas without a healer (1500+) let me know how it goes ;)...


I would, but I've already leveled 5 toons to 90, and I'm absolutely f*cking tired of Pandaria. But my DK is definitely next in line.

12/02/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Hemalador
I don't think this is a point, but i disagree


Maybe if you were 2k and properly specced, I'd take you seriously.

12/02/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Hemalador
Highest? Maybe. Certainly outside of burst Frost DK's in theory can do very good sustained damage. I think it could definetly be tuned down some actually, but we still need major buffs in different areas.


Dks have been all about sustained damage after their burst was nerfed in S10. So no, damage does not need a nerf. Nothing needs to be nerfed. More caster control is agreeable.

12/02/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Hemalador
Again maybe in random BG's. Target rich, fighting over control points (minimizing kiting), other classes cc, makes us decent in BG's, but in arena? Nope, terrible. Can't break roots (outside of trinket) insanely slow, 1 gap closer. Your a hunter, go duel some DK's. If you are doing it right, I guarantee you that the DK will only be in melee range once every 25 seconds (Death Grip)


Why would you even consider trinketing a root? In an arena environment you would get dispells from your healer. If you'd stop clicking you wouldn't even care about being in roots because YOU'RE A DEATH KNIGHT.

12/02/2012 09:27 PMPosted by Hemalador
Major survivability issues and have been there for some time. It's not without justification that DK's are known as the squishyest class.


There's no doubt about that, but THAT'S HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN. Any more survivability and you'll be overpowered, and then Blizzard will nerf the wrong things. *cough* season nine warriors *cough*

DK's have 2 def cds, AMS and IBF. AMS good against casters and dots, would be great to use offensively but we cant. 5sec duration. IBF, 20% reduction to all damage (laughable) 12sec duration. Both are silencable (which you do every 20secs). So silencing DK=win. DK's potentially have 2 heals, Lichborne and Death Pact. Very good heals, except again both silenceable, and very expensive. Blood presence is a 10% reduction and increased armor and stamina, but sucks away damage big time.

Looking at a DK's toolkit and comparing it to any other classes it's clear that Blizzard are consciously trying to keep DK's in check. The conspiricy is that Blizzard deliberatly make classes OP then UP in an attempt to make player's play different classes. Looking at Dk's in MOP is pretty good evidence of that.


I didn't read all of that. But you don't need more defensives. Your offensive pressure is PLENTY defense. Exactly how Hunters are. We have crap survivability, but you don't see us complaining because we utilize that great offensive pressure we have.

12/02/2012 09:42 PMPosted by Bunnite
I want to make a 3v3 with a monk and rogue and see if we win one game......*spoiler* we won't. Oh and your a hunter, shut up.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/wyrmrest-accord/Bunnite/achievement#95:165

Not even a 1500 hero complaining about the wrong things. Implying that hunters are strong.. LOL. We're completely balanced. Marksmanship does need a bit of a buff, but not in terms of damage. Something unique like what Beast Masters have. <- Braindeadly's + Tosan's idea.

Gladiator Andry here.

Death Knights be fine. Learn to dispell Hunter's Master's Call.

Leave us where we are right now.


Good one.
Edited by Rykinia on 12/3/2012 12:26 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
7520
12/03/2012 12:13 AMPosted by Rykinia
Dks don't exactly need more mobility. Spammable slows and two death grips are enough to compensate. Dks were never a mobile class, they just made every other class feel immobile.


We don't necessarily get two death grips. We get one with a second one for three seconds. Those 3 seconds are the only three we really get on a target unless they are stupid and blink/disengage. Our "spammable cc" reduces our damage greatly. The rune system is VERY clunky. I find that fine though. Sacrificing damage to survive/catch up should be how the game works.

Sadly that isn't the case. Death knights are "out of date" per se. Like warriors. Now they have an option to be offensive while defensive (100% parry). Just as an example.

12/03/2012 12:24 AMPosted by Rykinia
Why would you even consider trinketing a root? In an arena environment you would get dispells from your healer. If you'd stop clicking you wouldn't even care about being in roots because YOU'RE A DEATH KNIGHT


While i agree trinketing root is dumb. Dispell has a cooldown now and dispelling roots is not the highest priority over frost bombs/fears that could potentially be more harmful.

12/03/2012 12:24 AMPosted by Rykinia
I didn't read all of that. But you don't need more defensives. Your offensive pressure is PLENTY defense. Exactly how Hunters are. We have crap survivability, but you don't see us complaining because we utilize that great offensive pressure we have.


You are a ranged class. You have less defensives because your position is in the backfield using positioning to your advantage. Such as fighting in higher axis's and kiting. Melee need more defensives as they have to sacrifice positioning for damage. We are the kited, and must have something to compensate for being in the front line taking the hits.

I'm quite used to seeing high rated players troll and joke around a lot. Not entirely sure if you're being serious, but I agree.


From moon gaurd. He is obviously role playing being a gladiator lol.

Either way, Dk's folly is other classes being so strong. Dks lack cc/surviv/mobility compared to other classes. Damage isn't the only thing that matters.

Here is the problem with people that think DK's are fine and the reason WHY they think they are fine.

Death Knights damage is in a great place. Sustained and not to bursty. Has enough to pressure someone, but not to the point where you just flop through your survival cds.

Death knights in the lower bracket dominate because of this "higher damage".

Why?

Because bad players compensate for Dk's flaws!

-Mobility isn't an issue because other players do not know how to kite.
-Survivability is not an issue because bad players can not fight under pressure, and don't know how to coordinate burst correctly.
-CC is not an issue because the other team does not CC (or can not do both pressure and cc effectively together)

When a bad player is presented to a Death Knights pure advantage of raw damage, they generally are ignorant to the flaws of the class. They don't presume it is a L2P issue, they just persume that because their damage is so high they are "fine" or "op"
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31 Blood Elf Monk
0
12/02/2012 07:44 PMPosted by Rykinia
Don't worry, I was trying to get the attention away from warlocks.


Dks have

-Next to no CC-
-Next to no self healing-
-next to no utility-
-The worst mobility in the game of any melee class-
-No escape mechanics-
-Awful defensive cds that can be countered with a silence-
-Great damage-

Warriors have

-A ton of CC-
-Great healing with 2nd wind-
-Amazing utility-
-Amazing mobility-
-Heroic leap across the map-
-Amazing defensive cds and lolDstance-
-Amazing damage and even more burst-

But yeah dks are fine

Now don't misunderstand me, warriors are over the top. Clearly being buffed to warrior status is just going to break the game more. Still dks need something to compete at high levels.

At 2200+
5.2% class rep for dks
18% for warriors
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100 Human Death Knight
15225
Posted by Hemalador
I don't think this is a point, but i disagree

Maybe if you were 2k and properly specced, I'd take you seriously.

so firstly, there is no "properly specced", I could justify all my spec selection atm if I wanted but when I logged out I'd just done Krasarang dailes and was in my normal PvE setup with PvP gear on just in case, btw thanks for attacking me and not the info

Edit: P.S i would like to know which talents/glyph's you think I should be taking. Thats more or less the proper rbg setup, for comps with healers you should take blood tap for necro stacks, and RW is more helpful in arenas (unless you run with a mage), then theres the third teir, and you tell me whats better? DA, Asphixiate, or Chillblains? theres no real winner

Posted by Hemalador
Again maybe in random BG's. Target rich, fighting over control points (minimizing kiting), other classes cc, makes us decent in BG's, but in arena? Nope, terrible. Can't break roots (outside of trinket) insanely slow, 1 gap closer. Your a hunter, go duel some DK's. If you are doing it right, I guarantee you that the DK will only be in melee range once every 25 seconds (Death Grip)

Why would you even consider trinketing a root? In an arena environment you would get dispells from your healer. If you'd stop clicking you wouldn't even care about being in roots because YOU'RE A DEATH KNIGHT.


no doubt, I definetly wouldn't be trinketing a root. My point was most classes can break them through talents or abilitys baked into the class.

Posted by Hemalador
Major survivability issues and have been there for some time. It's not without justification that DK's are known as the squishyest class.

There's no doubt about that, but THAT'S HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN. Any more survivability and you'll be overpowered, and then Blizzard will nerf the wrong things. *cough* season nine warriors *cough*


sorry I thought you were arguing that dks had strong defensives, considering thats what you said in your original post

12/03/2012 12:24 AMPosted by Rykinia
I didn't read all of that. But you don't need more defensives. Your offensive pressure is PLENTY defense. Exactly how Hunters are. We have crap survivability, but you don't see us complaining because we utilize that great offensive pressure we have.


I see it the other way. Our offensive pressure (that potentially is good) makes us a high kill target, and giving our defensives are terrible you would be mad not to train the DK in arenas straight off the bat.
Edited by Hemalador on 12/3/2012 1:27 AM PST
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31 Blood Elf Monk
0
12/03/2012 12:24 AMPosted by Rykinia
I didn't read all of that. But you don't need more defensives. Your offensive pressure is PLENTY defense. Exactly how Hunters are. We have crap survivability, but you don't see us complaining because we utilize that great offensive pressure we have.


This is so dumb.

As a hunter you have more pressure then a dk
You know why? because you have much more up time.
Also if you think hunter survivability is as bad as dk survivability you're crazy.

Dk's are so easy to shut down and if you're letting one sit on you or a team mate its a l2p issue

Plus dks are far from the top when it comes to burst. Demo locks, Warriors and mages all have much higher, harder to avoid damage than a dk.
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31 Blood Elf Monk
0
12/03/2012 12:24 AMPosted by Rykinia
If you'd stop clicking you wouldn't even care about being in roots because YOU'RE A DEATH KNIGHT.


And what the eff does this even mean?

Are you implying that we do good ranged damage or what?

Because howling blast crits (rarely) for 30k and deathcoil is a joke for frost.

My monk does more ranged damage than my dk by far and he doesn't even have his pvp weapon yet.
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100 Gnome Warlock
13070
I've played alongside and against some pretty durable DKs, but even still their ability to prevent or mitigate damage is woefully underpowered. They the real glass cannons right now (just thicker glass. It still Shatters!)

Death Pact is a really well-balanced talent and I like it. The other two need serious work to even be worth mentioning. Personally, I always wished Death Siphon or Conversion worked more like Soul Siphon does for warlocks (e.g. RP spent is converted into X% health, passively). A small, frequent health generator might be perfect for some playstyles.

As for the other cd's... AMS is also very potent, but on a long cooldown compared to other similarly designed absorbs like a mage's Ice Barrier or a warlock's Twilight Ward. My biggest gripes come with Icebound Fortitude and Strangulate though. IBF could easily stand a buff to any of the following: its RP cost, its cd, or its %mitigation. A paladin can do comparable damage, have the same mitigation at a more frequent rate (Diving Protection), equally high uptime, and still throw strong self-heals to boot! If we're gonna have so many restrictions on IBF, it needs to pack more of a punch! Similarly, Strangulate would be just fine without the rune cost, or conversely with the rune cost, but with a shorter cd.

Lastly, Obliterate does not need to hit that hard. I'd like to see some of the damage be shifted into Frost Strike and diseases. The heavy rune usage deters DKs from using utility spells, and I think that kind of defeats the point of having them.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
Survivability loss:
Last season we had 1 rank 1 capable composition (DK Ret Disc) and a glad viable comp (DK Hunter HPaladin) both were reliant of peels, sacs and off heals to the DK class. Death Knights had a very poor survivability and were forced to play with other DPS that can heal or provide extra defensives for DK class.
We also had 7 seconds 100% absorbed AMS, AMZ

In MOP we lost 2 seconds off AMS, 100% became optional, AMZ was put versus Lichborne which means we either lost healing or peel/ magic damage reduction. Only thing we got back was extra 25% heal from Death Pact.

Not only we were the squishiest class in a game last expansion we also LOST more survivability.

If you can look at Shanghai tournaments Yaspresents swapped DK for a Mage in order to compete because DKs are lacking in utilities and survivability. Every single DK was getting trained by the opposite team during tournaments.


From Reiñhart
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4 Undead Mage
0
12/03/2012 01:16 AMPosted by Bellathissa
Don't worry, I was trying to get the attention away from warlocks.


Dks have

-Next to no CC-
-Next to no self healing-
-next to no utility-
-The worst mobility in the game of any melee class-
-No escape mechanics-
-Awful defensive cds that can be countered with a silence-
-Great damage-

Warriors have

-A ton of CC-
-Great healing with 2nd wind-
-Amazing utility-
-Amazing mobility-
-Heroic leap across the map-
-Amazing defensive cds and lolDstance-
-Amazing damage and even more burst-

But yeah dks are fine

Now don't misunderstand me, warriors are over the top. Clearly being buffed to warrior status is just going to break the game more. Still dks need something to compete at high levels.

At 2200+
5.2% class rep for dks
18% for warriors
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