What's the point of being a pure nowadays?

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Hybrids CAN'T do everything a pure does. Which hybrid can steal buffs off mobs for themself?


Which is only helpful on Protectors of the Endless (and that's ONLY when your tank fails at moving them). Don't act like Spellsteal gives me a huge advantage in PvE.

11/26/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine
Which hybrid can bring different buffs as they choose by changing pets?


The only advantage to being a Hunter. The other being that you feel forced to bring a ton of pets.

11/26/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine
Or different debuffs on mobs by changing poisons?


Debuffs: Healing debuff (useless in PvE), Stun poison (useless cuz it takes too long), Slow poison (who DOESN'T have a slow?!), Slow casting (Warlocks and Arcane Mages, but this, again, isn't useful in PvE).

11/26/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine
What was ok in MC/BWL is no longer ok in Blizzard's mindset, times change, gameplay may change, etc...


Same with forcing the use of a Mage in Gruul's Lair (HKM: Spellstealing Krosh Firehand) and Black Temple (Illidari Council: Spellstealing Super Dampen Magic), as well as a Warlock tanking that one guy in SSC (Leotheras?) and requiring Priests for Naxxramas (Mind Controlling; 25/40-player only) because these raids required TWENTY FIVE people. If you didn't have every class in a 25 man (let alone a 40 man), then you really messed up your comp. It's not okay for 10 mans because, well... 11 classes. 10 speccs. Very unlikely to have the perfect comp.

11/26/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine
When Blizz brings back an encounter that needs dpsers to strap on a shield and off-tank


The same could be said about forcing 1-tank/2-healer fights when the 2nd tank/3rd healer has to DPS...

11/26/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine
or hibernate mobs, or mind control adds, etc.


So I guess Lei Shi, a fight where Shamans and Druids decimate the CC doesn't count. Guess what? I can't hard-cc those.

11/26/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Ellilaine
then you might be able to make the argument that pure's deserve "more" because hybrids can do "more".


You've yet to give a legitimate example. Your entire point is invalid. Good day.

11/26/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Lhivera
In theory, I understand the idea that if class A can fill multiple roles and Class B can't, then all else being equal, Class A has an advantage.


By NO means am I arguing to get a non-DPS role on pures. I'm arguing some form of raid-utility (which atm only Warlocks have). Anything, something, just give me a raid cooldown (MASS ALTER TIME! :D Let me [spell]steal Nozdormu's Hourglass!)

11/26/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Lhivera
In practice, is doesn't seem to keep people from playing what they want to play in pretty good numbers.


The fact that pure DPS (on a class by class average) is overly well represented due to the fact that the DPS is so high is kinda doing the opposite in regards to hybrids atm (basically that because Hybrid DPS [at least mostly as casters] is lower, there are a lot less doing DPS. If they got balanced, this would shift greatly, countering your point).

11/26/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Lhivera
Get the few lagging specs up to par, and I think the vast majority of players are going to feel comfortable playing the character they want to play.


While it will help, once everyone's on the same setting as far as DPS goes, then it would be pointless to play a pure because you have 0 raid utility (with again, Warlocks being the one exception).

You of ALL people here are well aware with my personal issue with Mages, Lhiv, but it does go further than just my despising of L90 Talents.

11/26/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Hiroran
How is spellsteal not a utility?


Name me one thing is actually STEALS besides Elder Asani's healing buff?

(If you name something on trash, I will point and laugh)

11/26/2012 03:33 PMPosted by Ginx
It's been happening for several expansion now for pures. The last time I recall all 3 mages trees being truly competitive with each other was during TBC.


You mean Frost was usable back then?

It never once has been on equal grounds. Fire and Arcane were useless in Vanilla because of fire-immune mobs EVERYWHERE (Tier 1, Tier 2, Onyxia) and Arcane not even having a primary nuke! (ARCANE MISSILES, ARCANE MISSILES, ARCANE MISSILES, ARCANE MISSILES, ARCANE MISSILES). BC-Cata, Frost wasn't viable. Multiple times between that, either Fire or Arcane pushed so far ahead of the other that we only had one specc (with the exception at the end of LK and Cataclysm)

Not ONCE have I been allowed to choose any of my three speccs and still be competitive.

11/26/2012 05:23 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
The only reason top end guilds take hunters is because they don't want to take enhancement shaman and they need somebody to soak all of the mail agility gear.


It's sad to say, but this is a pretty sturdy answer XD
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16960
It doesn't have to be useful on all fights. A lot of things hybrids can do aren't all that useful on many fights either. The initial statement I responded to was "Hybrids can do everything a pure can AND perform multiple roles" which is blatantly false as I demonstrated and you agreed with.

Ya, I bet pures can touch their nose with their tongue and hybrids can't. We are so lucky.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/26/2012 09:37 PMPosted by Ellilaine
The initial statement I responded to was "Hybrids can do everything a pure can AND perform multiple roles"


Except that was never my point. I never gave two craps about being a tank/healer, but that I could use healing cooldowns (or in some instances, become a tank for a brief period if we needed to get ours back up) to help out the raid in times of need, whereas, I don't have anything like that.

11/26/2012 09:37 PMPosted by Ellilaine
And yet, you agreed that there are things pures can do that hybrids can't...so my entire point was validated by your own statement.


A hunter being a wild card? Oh man, because Hunters have so much going for them.

My spellsteal is just a purge on Protectors. If I want the heal, I'll just stand in the water orb anyways.

11/26/2012 09:53 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Ya, I bet pures can touch their nose with their tongue and hybrids can't. We are so lucky.


Hah!

I actually can't though :(
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
11/26/2012 03:33 PMPosted by Ginx
In practice, is doesn't seem to keep people from playing what they want to play in pretty good numbers. Since the inability to play your preferred spec is the only real potential problem, if it isn't happening outside of a few outliers like Arcane


It's been happening for several expansion now for pures. The last time I recall all 3 mages trees being truly competitive with each other was during TBC.

Also, when looking at raidbots just to get an idea of what specs are being played we see 3 out of the 4 specs that show up as less than 1% of the parses in 10N belonging to pures and 5 out of 6 in 10H belonging to pures. That's not an outlier, it's pretty much the norm for pures and it's supported by the dev's own comments in Cata about how they give hybrid dps specs development priority over pures.


You're talking specs; I'm talking classes. If the classes are well-represented, then the problem is not with the fact that they're pure (and even if one of the classes isn't well-represented, that doesn't point to pureness as the problem, or it would affect the other three as well).

If we were seeing poor representation of Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters, we could conclude, "OK, the one thing all these classes have in common is that they're all pures; there may be a problem with pure design." But if we're only seeing poor representation of particular specs, the reasonable conclusion is that those specs are either underperforming, are capable of similar performance but only with greater difficulty, or are capable of similar performance but aren't enjoyable.

In short, Arcane and other specs may have problems, but being pure ain't one of 'em.
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90 Pandaren Monk
16765
Like I said earlier in the thread, there's no functional difference between a "hybrid" and a "pure". Being able to respec and perform a different role is of limited value when it requires a completely different gearset, or at least comparable value to being able to respec into a different DPS spec depending on the needs of a fight. And traditional "hybrid" functions like off-healing are completely spec dependant. Some hybrids like shadow priests and feral druids do a lot, some like windwalker monks and death knights do very little. Not that different from pures really. There is a huge value in being able to spec for strong AoE when needed and strong single target otherwise and so on though, which is pure-only for the most part.

Utility is simply spec dependant. Some specs have a huge amount and some have almost none. It has nothing to do with which class is a "hybrid". Of course you can look at a ret paladin and say that with BoP, sac, LoH, Devo etc they bring a lot to the table, but you can just as easily pick a hybrid spec that brings nothing. Some examples of "pure" utility in T14 heroic fights:

Stone Guard: Warlock gateways are huge. Also blade flurry, which is borderline on whether or not it counts as utility just because it's so uniquely powerful.

Gara'jal: Strong warlock self-healing + AoE downstairs is hugely valuable and makes them the most desirable choice for those groups, rogue smoke bombs were key to most early kills.

Spirit Kings: Mages have an offensive dispel, crucial for shields. Combat rogues have the longest duration single target stun in the game and it carries a raid DPS bonus along with it, by far the best way to deal with Sleight of Hand.

Elegon: Mages, hunters, rogues and warlocks are all good soaking choices, though many classes can do it.

Will: Nothing comes close to a hunter for spark soaking. Deterrance + disengage is simply the best way to deal with 4-8 sparks at once. If you use the ring of frost strat well... ring of frost and hunter traps.

Vizier: Warlock gateways.

Garalon: Blade flurry of course. Game changer on this boss. Mages are great kiters because of blink to get through tight spots, and the fact that they have both ice block and cauterize if things go badly.

Wind Lord: Nothing much aside from spec flexibility for locks and mages to adjust to which strat you use - AoE oriented or otherwise. Also spellsteal.

Shek'zeer: So much. Mages are the best choice to get in the corrupted field to blow them up as fast as possible as they have both an immunity and a cheat death, and it's a caster-only job. Rogues bring huge utility in p2 with various stuns to save tanks and a cheat death if fixated. Warlock gateways are great again, and they are the best p2 DPS.

Protectors: Warlocks are great for add control since they bring curse of exhaustion and strong damage, hunter traps are also valuable for the slow, though exhaustion is better. Mages bring an offensive dispel.

Tsulong: Hunters are great for day phase add control with a variety of stuns, slows and DPS cooldowns they can rotate through each add wave. Warlocks are also pretty good.

Lei Shi: Blink makes mages the best choice to pick up and spread scary fog. Hunters are among the best choices for DPS on this boss because their kit allows almost full ranged DPS while constantly moving, warlocks bring banish which is by far the best CC option for the adds.

Sha of Fear: You'll mostly see warlocks and mages brought for this boss for their ridiculous DPS potential given the specific requirements of the boss, but blink, warlock ports and AoE curse of exhaustion are all very useful too.

On another note, wait until the Sha of Fear videos from Method and Blood Legion come out and count the number of pures in their raid. Pretty sure it will be more than 10 in each. Given that there's 7-8 tanks and healers in the raid too, that makes pures look pretty good.
Edited by Gondlem on 11/27/2012 7:24 AM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
11/27/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Lhivera
In short, Arcane and other specs may have problems, but being pure ain't one of 'em


You miss are never going to Reason with this Panda Mage... so no use in trying... There's many reasons to bring pures... Most add utilities that hybrids just don't offer plus being a Hybrid isn't really an advantage... all ur healers and ur tanks are hybrids..

How many Hybrids you Roll with have BiS gear for both of it's specs and can preform diligently enough to replace a pure. Maybe ur argument would hold a grain of salt down the road but MOP is fairly new. I'm also going to guess since ur a panda mage, unless u really paid money to race change you leveled that toon from scrap.

Unless you can honestly say your capable of preforming as great on ur mage as any class on this game, then I honestly don't see what your delusion is. I think you really need to try out Boomkin... Try out Ele Shaman... Try out Shadow Priest..
I will never Admit being able to preform Equally as well as my warlock on my Boomkin...

The rotation on boomkin simply does not suite me, even how abc easy it is, haste procs, and the balance bar makes it really unpredictable sometimes Confusing for me versus just keeping a DoT up and keeping track of CDS and I end up messing up on the Simon pattern boomkin gots going on for it.

Anyways it's so easy to complain about something before trying it out.... you can't simply rule out all pures suck cause you can play a hybrid that can bring buffs. One unique mechanic most pures have that I don't have on my hybrids that I absolutely love is Threat Dropping Mechanics... I hate adds focusing on me so much.

Off heals are very overrated, lack of a battle res sucks.... Also no warlock is going to keep kurse of enfeeblement on a target it lasts 30seconds... and only arcane mage can slow.

11/26/2012 08:54 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
The only advantage to being a Hunter. The other being that you feel forced to bring a ton of pets.


Hunter's have advantage of being pretty self reliant as well... They redirect trash, are mainly immune to movement impairing nonsense, can move while doing Damage consistently, Pet's ALWAYS attack behind the Enemy IIRC. Also some pets bring debuffs that Aren't apart of peoples rotation freeing up CD's as well. Saving ppl GCD's have its advantages. I mean I pretty much put my hunter on hold but I'm sure hunter isn't "useless for all except a raid buff". when ur running 10 mans u don't have space to bring every dps in the book... Tranq shot when applicable is incredibly useful so is distracting shot. There's plenty of times where you have ppl that "Can do" something but "don't do it". Being able to pevent a wipe indirectly is a decent (often un-utilized) tool.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/27/2012 8:13 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
9535
11/27/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Lhivera
If the classes are well-represented, then the problem is not with the fact that they're pure


The problem is blizzard seems to feel as long as pures have at least one competitive spec then that's good enough. They don't take the same view on hybrid specs and they've admitted as much in cata. That's why this is a pure specific problem because it's only happening to pures (for the most part).

11/27/2012 07:10 AMPosted by Lhivera
In short, Arcane and other specs may have problems, but being pure ain't one of 'em.


Do you really think it's a coincidence that the vast majority of unplayed specs belong to pures? If this was just a "well blizz gets spec balance wrong sometimes" I would expect to see the majority of unplayed specs belonging to hybrids since hybrids make up the majority of classes. So, why don't we see multiple unplayed hybrid dps specs? Simply because blizzard has already admitted to giving hybrid dps specs priority. That's a real issue and until they start treating pure specs with the same priority pures will continue to be stuck with dead specs from patch to patch and expansion to expansion.
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90 Undead Warlock
0
I got 99 problems but this thread topic ain't one.

Seriously, does this !@#$ have to be posted every other day?
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
11/27/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Ginx
If the classes are well-represented, then the problem is not with the fact that they're pure


The problem is blizzard seems to feel as long as pures have at least one competitive spec then that's good enough. They don't take the same view on hybrid specs and they've admitted as much in cata. That's why this is a pure specific problem because it's only happening to pures (for the most part).


They don't feel that way. They've been working since Wrath on improving the balance of pure specs so that people can feel free to play the one they prefer. The fact that they're not there yet is a problem, but it wouldn't be honest to claim they haven't made significant progress.

The fact that, for example, people who prefer to play Arcane don't feel free to do so is a problem — but it's certainly not a problem caused by some inherent inferiority that pures have in raid utility. If it were, it would also affect Fire and Frost, and it doesn't. The problem is simply that when all three specs share the same role, players have a much lower tolerance for performance differences within that role. If the buff to Arcane Charge puts Arcane's DPS up with Fire's and Frost's, we'll see its representation pick up.

So no, it's not a coincidence that most unused specs are pure specs — but that in no way implies that the problem is some kind of pure utility inferiority. It's simply that it's much more difficult to balance pures tightly enough within the class for people to feel free to play all three specs.
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90 Human Warlock
14695
Pretty good topic, though the title is somewhat misleading as it stated "Pures" and seems to have drifted into "Mages".

The OP makes a lot of very valid points and I cannot dismiss them all. If this topic were to go back on track I would suggest we review a couple of important things:

Most pure classes are basically shoe-horned into a specific role for PvE. I love destro, even during Cata I suffered what imo was one of the worst rotation upkeeps in game (at that time, not unlike Kitty rotation in wrath...which offhand was rewarded with godlike dps if done properly) to essentially "match" "average" dps. In MoP its a very simplified rotation in exchange for lower dps... So we went from work harder to maintain the average to work less for less.. If I am playing a pure class I feel llike I want more bang for my buck so to speak.

Just as a quick example on one of my alts (a DK) in lesser gear, in a less desirable spec for my class (2H Frost), I out dps my lock with pretty much no effort and can tank to boot!! Instant B-rez, reasonably similar buffs brought to the table etc. Heck from an AoE perspective on my DK when tanking I smash what my lock can do and single target is close enough while tanking to make me scratch my head.

The question was really this: Why play a pure class?

I am left wondering the same thing. Perhaps if I played a firemage as my main or was better at or enjoyed affliction more...

At the very least to the OP I say this as the one thing against your post, go check out world of logs, look at Firemages dps...now check out destro warlock dps... k can I have a cookie now?

Cheers mate,

Iced
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1 Human Rogue
0
Like I said earlier in the thread, there's no functional difference between a "hybrid" and a "pure". And then a whole lot of words.


You know what I find very interesting about your post?

That despite listing every single encounter, you can only come up with a single ability in a single case in which rogues actually have any utility at all.

Protip: Bladeflurry isn't utility, it's damage potential. Being great damage due to a fights mechanics does not equal out to having utility. I'm going to be merciful and not even comment on the fact that you decided to list a rogue's single target stuns (which come with the downside of damage potential) on the adds on Empress.. Given that, you know, quite a few classes have legitiment AoE stuns which come at no cost to their dps other than a GCD.
Edited by Hallinton on 11/27/2012 10:26 AM PST
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90 Troll Warrior
11630
11/27/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Hallinton
legitiment


teehee

11/27/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Hallinton
AoE stuns which come at no cost to their dps other than a GCD.


You sound like you think a GCD is a small cost.
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90 Human Warlock
17000
11/27/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Ginx
So, why don't we see multiple unplayed hybrid dps specs?

Uh... because if Arcane is unplayable, they can go Fire; if Shadow is unplayable, they reroll or suck it up?

Also, how was Fury doing for population in Dragon Soul? Unholy in Firelands?

11/27/2012 10:34 AMPosted by Obzen
You sound like you think a GCD is a small cost.

If he only plays a Rogue, it's understandable. I can see why classes that naturally have wait time (and a 1s gcd) would feel that a gcd is a small cost.
Edited by Serinicas on 11/27/2012 10:46 AM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
11010
People only bring hunters to a raid because we dont compete with other classes loots (other than the rare enhancement shaman) or we have to be super friendly happy fun friends with raid leaders *only reason i still get to raid* to be the bemoaning sorry my dps is 20k lower than you, random hybrid class (enough looking at just mages lets look at the FURY warrior, the most OP hybrid right now, yes you are a hybrid class oh mighty warrior!). We are easier to gear than bringing all mage/warlock until all the raid mages/warlocks are geared enough......
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
lol I have hope that hunters will be magically fixed someday... I really cant stand my hunter atm to be honest and it's not cause of the Damage.. It's cause I literally have to sit.. with my back scrunched over and Squint at which Cd's is over...

Was nice when it was just Kill Command and I can macro all the other bs into one macro.. but then they decided to make TALENTS... so Gross. There's like no passive talents at all for Hunter...

I'm pretty sure Hunter feels like Rogue at this point.. Cause never in my life would I play a class that has to press like keep track of 9 different Cd's. It's basically like how lock was in cata.. but worse.. press 10 keys do !@#$ty damage. No ty. No it's not difficult, it's annoying and very limiting to the class as a whole. Even !@#$tier when it's Casted Arrow Skills that do low damage, eat half ur focus bar... Then Have a CD... lolwut?.

GC trolled Hunter.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/27/2012 11:36 AM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
5620


Because you enjoy the playstyle.

/thread


What playstyle?

Mages are pretty much back to the way there were in Wrath. Each one spams a bolt, it just changes colors depending on what spec you are. Yay.

Hunters are just un enjoyable even when compared to cata. I'd take cata hunter back in a heart beat compared to what we got now. At least we had 1 good spec.

Rogues are just in a bad place. They are still good for cleave fights, and damage is ok. But the down time in the rotation leaves you pulling your hair out in frustration over having nothing to do and no control over it.

As for Warlocks. I actually like warlocks really. Sure they have their problems with certain things but for the most part I think blizzard is on the right track there. Just some tweaking might help with a few QoL stuff.


if you don't like the play-style don't play it, its that simple. You think bcz i have 2 healing specs i actually use it? no i dont heal spots are filled by ppl who want to heal i'd kill to have another dps option like mages to be honest.

P.S. the top dps atm are pures (mage and warlock)
Edited by Malíx on 11/27/2012 11:37 AM PST
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90 Troll Warrior
11630
11/27/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Teddygrahams
the FURY warrior, the most OP hybrid right now


...

What?
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90 Human Priest
6935
The fact that, for example, people who prefer to play Arcane don't feel free to do so is a problem — but it's certainly not a problem caused by some inherent inferiority that pures have in raid utility. If it were, it would also affect Fire and Frost, and it doesn't. The problem is simply that when all three specs share the same role, players have a much lower tolerance for performance differences within that role. If the buff to Arcane Charge puts Arcane's DPS up with Fire's and Frost's, we'll see its representation pick up.

So no, it's not a coincidence that most unused specs are pure specs — but that in no way implies that the problem is some kind of pure utility inferiority. It's simply that it's much more difficult to balance pures tightly enough within the class for people to feel free to play all three specs.


Very much this. Arcane is "broken" (pre 5.1) because it is parsing noticeably below fire and frost even if it is middle of the pack in the overall dps spec comparison. If the changes put arcane 2% ahead then 90% of mages will respec arcane, reforge/regem/re-enchant all their gear to arcane and start crying about fire and frost being broken despite there being no significant changes to them.
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