What's the point of being a pure nowadays?

90 Pandaren Priest
9520
Those who are pointing to WoL for DPS comparisons are missing the point. You can kill any boss without a single pure in the raid. Damage is not the issue. Utility and versatility has been doled out to select classes that can already respec into another role, and pures have gone in the opposite direction of spec homogenization and no expansion on utility beyond rote survivability.

Last night on the 1st boss of HoF I pulled 12k hps without barely any change to my rotation. Halo and Vamp Embrace made Force and Verve easily 2-healable. This would not be possible with my mage or my hunter. In fact, I'd lose my dps significantly if I were to help contribute to making force and verve easier to deal with (ice block/detterance = no dps). My guild leader is ready to give up on his hunter because of these very reasons - he wants to swap to his paly. I already made the switch to priest, and I regret absolutely nothing. Did I lose a little dps? On single target tank and spank, yes. But the gains in utility are more than worth it.

Pures simply have less to offer raids. Playstyle is subjective. Potential for contribution is not.
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90 Undead Death Knight
9115
pures bring some utilities. Soulstone is op for 10m and so is healthstone, can't tell you how many times that saved me.

mages just don't die in raid unless you majorly screw up, even then you still have outs.

dmg also matters
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90 Pandaren Priest
9520
Most classes don't die in raids unless you majorly screw up. Mages have slightly more survivaility tools than others, but it's nowhere near hybrid healing potential.

In terms of utility, Warlocks currently have it best. They're by far the best designed pure class in the game by a longshot. Healthstones probably the biggest contributer to that.
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100 Worgen Warrior
5160
11/27/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Terrortician
In terms of utility, Warlocks currently have it best. They're by far the best designed pure class in the game by a longshot. Healthstones probably the biggest contributer to that.


for this expansion yes. they deserve some time in the spotlight historically being the least played class next to rogues.

this whole hybrid vs. pure thing has been going on since BC. pure classes still have their place, in terms of damage and utility, but i think the MoP talent transition took more away from pures than it did for hybrids.

my rogue and hunter sure don't feel as exciting as they once did.
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90 Troll Warrior
11630
11/27/2012 12:22 PMPosted by Terrortician
You can kill any boss without a single pure in the raid.


You can kill any boss without a single melee dps in the raid. Is that a problem?
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100 Goblin Warlock
17165
11/27/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Obzen
You can kill any boss without a single pure in the raid.


You can kill any boss without a single melee dps in the raid. Is that a problem?


You can kill any boss without a single ranged dps as well
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90 Troll Warrior
11630
11/27/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Purebalance
You can kill any boss without a single ranged dps as well


So we agree that it's not a problem? Good.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
8205
noxxic's updated dps ranking
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

How come all specs of hunter are at the bottom?
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
Those who are pointing to WoL for DPS comparisons are missing the point. You can kill any boss without a single pure in the raid. Damage is not the issue. Utility and versatility has been doled out to select classes that can already respec into another role, and pures have gone in the opposite direction of spec homogenization and no expansion on utility beyond rote survivability.

Last night on the 1st boss of HoF I pulled 12k hps without barely any change to my rotation. Halo and Vamp Embrace made Force and Verve easily 2-healable. This would not be possible with my mage or my hunter. In fact, I'd lose my dps significantly if I were to help contribute to making force and verve easier to deal with (ice block/detterance = no dps). My guild leader is ready to give up on his hunter because of these very reasons - he wants to swap to his paly. I already made the switch to priest, and I regret absolutely nothing. Did I lose a little dps? On single target tank and spank, yes. But the gains in utility are more than worth it.

Pures simply have less to offer raids. Playstyle is subjective. Potential for contribution is not.


I think this is in a nutshell what also irks me on this topic. I love my Mage, but sometimes it feels that I bring nothing to the raid but my presence in being there. When you have fights where Melee druids can throw in Tranq's as a raid CD, Battle Rez a player and still beat you on the metres as dps, it makes you feel kind of useless.

I know it is a very touchy topic - those players choosing to dps in those specs do not really want to be doing less damage than other dps, that is part of the fun and to be honest I do not blame that sentiment. We really need however to have the pures bring more raid benefits rather than reducing what the hybrids can do.

I would love to see something that I could have as a Mage that might be wanted raid wide during a fight - something that could put me in a CD rotation for high damage to the raid, or something to help the healers etc,.

noxxic's updated dps ranking
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

How come all specs of hunter are at the bottom?


One of the problems I see on that already is that very few encounters are single target and even the few that could be considered such, the mage parses and rankings are not even remotely close to what the three mage specs say there, so I wouldn't have much faith in that list to be honset.
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100 Gnome Monk
17210
11/27/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Hallinton
Protip: Bladeflurry isn't utility, it's damage potential. Being great damage due to a fights mechanics does not equal out to having utility. I'm going to be merciful and not even comment on the fact that you decided to list a rogue's single target stuns (which come with the downside of damage potential) on the adds on Empress.. Given that, you know, quite a few classes have legitiment AoE stuns which come at no cost to their dps other than a GCD.


Depends on how you define utility I guess. I'd say that an ability that is useful above and beyond anything that can be provided by another class on the right sort of encounter is utility, and blade flurry certainly is that. It's a reason to be brought to a fight other than just the damage that can be provided by anyone else, and it's spec-specific.

If you don't think BF is utility then fine, include it as part of the awesome DPS package provided by rogues, but that doesn't make smoke bomb, 8 second single target stun with a + damage buff for the raid, cheat death etc any less valuable. The only relevant question surrounding utility is "what, other than my normal damage abilities, do I bring to the raid?", and each of those things qualifies and is crucial on the right encounter in this tier.

The real point is that if you compare a combat rogue to most hybrid specs in terms of what they bring other than generic DPS in T14 heroic fights, they do quite well. Obviously they're not quite as useful as a fury warrior, but then neither is anyone else. There's still several fights where rogues bring unique abilities that make certain parts of the fight easier if used properly.
Edited by Gondlem on 11/28/2012 2:35 AM PST
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100 Human Hunter
15730
~
Edited by Sudn on 8/3/2013 3:14 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
13525
[yawn]

Some players have been arguing since dps was more or less normalized in Wrath that it meant the end of pures. It hasn't happened yet; in fact their numbers have held steady.

You can make all the arguments that you like about how your logic dictates that pures are doomed, but when reality says something else, you lose. It's going on 5 years now of this tired "debate" and for some it still hasn't sunk in that it's over. We get to dps as well as you do. Deal with it.
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90 Human Paladin
13525
it should be fine with everyone to scale the pure DPS classes so they outperform hybrid DPS by 10-15% consistently.


No. And Blizzard agrees with me, so you lose. I hope that makes you upset.
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
If ppl think Hyrbrids are better off why don't they just go play them.. no one forcing u to play mage.. Maybe once you play one you will realize that they aren't extremely advantageous over bringing a pure.

Blizzard's "bring the player not the class" policy will always keep Pures from excelling Hybrids too much or having too many unique utilities to offer.
If you feel as a hybrid you will have better chances raiding, or being brought along then make one. I mean I'll admit ppl ask me to raid on my hybrids occasionally, and that has never happend on my pure dps so much, but that still hasn't stopped me from being able to join raids as a pure. Most time if they want my hybrid they don't even want the DPS spec either.
I kinda like how things are the way they are now. I don't see there ever needing to be additional Reasons to bring a pure outside of ppl being good at their rotations doing decent Damage on patchwerkz. That's not to say I like how all the classes are scaled, just saying I like the idea that no one feels pressured to choose between Hybrid/Pure.
If you feel inferior to hhybrids cause you don't contribute to other people's survivability in a raid I think that feeling is personal. Personally when I'm playing DPS hyrbrid or not, panels go off, I'm not there to keep other ppl alive cause they too stupid to keep themselves alive, having the ability to doesn't give me incentive to play a hybrid at all. infact it makes me try to avoid them cause ppl then try to rely on it, rather give em health stones and let them be self-sufficient.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/30/2012 1:17 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
13265
I agree OP give mages tranquility every 6 minutes, give em lots mors utility ! but please bring em down to earth on PvE dps ty :)
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100 Goblin Warlock
17165
it should be fine with everyone to scale the pure DPS classes so they outperform hybrid DPS by 10-15% consistently.


No. And Blizzard agrees with me, so you lose. I hope that makes you upset.


Umm no they don't. They agree with him.... The hybrid tax was never removed and the last statement by blizz in Cata is that it still exists.
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100 Worgen Hunter
12145
Mages shouldn't be allowed to post on forums.

But really, the only advantage is that you'll almost always have at least one viable damage dealing spec in PvE and PvP (if you aren't a Hunter, at least). If all you want to do on a Hybrid is DPS, there are definitely pretty regular times when your only viable spec is your tank/heal spec.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Okay so now that Fire's been obliterated beyond belief... I don't even have that damage anymore...
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90 Dwarf Shaman
5740
11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Mages bring Time Warp (which Shamans can too, anyways)

All three specs of mages do a lot more damage than an ele/enh shaman fyi.

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Mages, Warlocks, and Hunters bring little to no raid utility

Just wanna point out....
11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Warlocks bring Healthstones, a battlerez, and their gate thing


11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
nd Hunters bring one buff of the raid's choice.

Actually they can bring multiple raid buffs depending on what pets they have some pets give you an attack speed buff while others bring a crit buff. Not to metion all the slows and binding shot is an aoe stun which is probably useful in MGV for the emperor fight as well as some others I assume. Narrow escape, another talent choice is useful in the same fashion as well as the 2 frost/freeze trap that you could be using instead of mashing arcane shot -_-

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
: +5% Spell Haste (only given by these three out of the thirty-four possible speccs).

I'm not sure what the pet is but if need be a hunter could bring this as well like I stated above.

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Shamans get Heroism/Bloodlust, is the only class that can self-rez once per battle without using up one of your precious battle rezzes

Warlocks cn soulstone themselves to achieve the same thing fyi.

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
On an equal level, what would be the point to be a pure nowadays?

On a supposed equal level what is the point in defining roles between classes?

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
hile Mages and Warlocks are completely limited to non-spirit items, the three hybrid-casters can use Hit, Spirit, and non-hit/non-spirit items.

I wasn't aware that these classes actually needed spirit and also that I'm pretty sure they have passives/abilities to make this point void, ie: mages can use evocation -_-

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
ot to even mention how awfully clunky and crappy Mages are atm

Is that a joke? seriously, is it?

11/22/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
is it really just me?

Probably not but it sounds to me as if you would prefer to play a hybrid over a "pure" in which case that doesn't make "pures" obsolete. If you wanna play a hybrid then play a hybrid. Nuff said.
P.S. Its threads like this that make it seem like PvE is hurting and that it needs to be fixed and then the devs fix something based on this persons post and that in turn makes it so that pures can heal and hybrids have burst and healers are overpowered to compensate for all the damage that exists thanks to the changes. -_- Thanks for being one of the reasons my shaman can't be competitive in PvP any longer. Hope you at least learned something here.
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