What's the point of being a pure nowadays?

90 Orc Warrior
11685
Hybrids:
Spriests-Really good spot right now. Good offheals.
Boomkins-Decent. Haha, heals?
Shamans-Enhance and Ele have been hit pretty hard, they deserve something. Also not sure if they're even that great
Palidans-Haha ret dps?
Monk-FOTM
DK-Solid.


I like that Warriors almost always get ignored in the "Hybrid" lists.

Edit: Or, if we're included, it's almost something ridiculous like how we could just throw a shield on and tank. Which is idiotic but I guess some people think that's how tanking works.
Edited by Nodokk on 11/22/2012 8:49 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
5845
There is no point in playing a pure DPS class now. Roll a hybrid and you will never look back.
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90 Human Paladin
5685
Its not a whole lot different for other hybrids. People seem to think that hybrids can do everything, when in reality none of the plate hybrids can really just throw on their tanking buff and live longer than their defensive CDs.

The healing from a PvE perspective isn't that good either - People just see hybrids popping a cooldown in PvP perspective and thinking "OMGNERF!.

At 473, my flash of light heals for around 32k and I can hard cast it twice in a row. Feral and Enhancement are the same way, no hard cast healing, only maelstrom x 5 or cooldowns. As elemental, the heals were only around 66% as good, getting a 50% bonus to make it meaningfully useful after crits.
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90 Human Paladin
20590
Rogues, Warlocks, and Mages are at the top of the dps charts right now.

Healthstones and summoning portal are invaluable. I can't imagine raiding without them. Multi-dotting is awesome!

Mages have a tremendous amount of control and a ranged silence, which are helpful on Will of the Emperor. They also bring snack tables and 5% crit, which is generally hard to get unless you run a Windwalker Monk or Feral Druid. Like a Warlock, Fire Mages can do quite a lot if the fight allows for multi-dotting.

Hunters are great because they can bring literally any buff which makes it much easier to cover every buff in 10man raiding. Their dps seems a bit lower than the other classes and hopefully that gets brought up to par soon. Their control is great on Will of the Emperor and a ranged Silence/interrupt is always great to have.

I don't raid with a Rogue so I can't speak on their behalf, but I'm sure somebody else won't hesitate telling you about their strengths.
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90 Worgen Rogue
3645
imo, the old talent system favored pures, and the new system favors hybrids.

all the talents that hybrids had that let them perform the desired role were baked in; leaving the feeling that they got the better exchange in the MoP talent transition.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Mages are pretty much back to the way there were in Wrath. Each one spams a bolt, it just changes colors depending on what spec you are. Yay.


You forgot the awful L90 talents.

11/22/2012 06:41 PMPosted by Xothic


See Blizzard? thats what you get for conceiting mages sooo much over so many years.

They will only play one char because they find everything else "boring" (not broken overpowered)

And they will eventually quit because playing only one char gets old.

Not to mention the hatred from all the other classes.

Thats what you get for extreme favoritism, less suscriptions.


You're like the crazy person who lives in bins and throws bags of dog!@#$ at people while declaring that the end is nigh.


You sir deserve a thousand women (or men!) to flock to your house and love you forever for that comment.

11/22/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
I don't like dots. Blizzard apparently loves to give everyone dots to fool around with, and mages seem to be the least affected by this bizarre attachment.


I'd say this is false. Elemental only has to deal with Flame Shock and it lasts 30s with the glyph. Mage DoT lasts 12s (or shorter with Frost Bomb).

I don't like DoTs either, but these L90 talents just ruin my gameplay. (On top of having no buffs that aren't super common and having 0 raid utility)

Hunter is a pure but among top raiding guilds we are usually the lowest dps. Simming shows all our specs as very low.

No advantage to being a hunter...


If you're going to sim, please GTFO. Arcane is garbage atm yet sims very high. Coincidence? Simming is BAD.

11/22/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Wyse
Top end guilds continue to take pures (even Hunters) so you're obviously wrong about something.


They asked what's the point and I agree. My main's a hunter, and the state of hunters is so pathetic it's caused me to call it quits for good.


Hunter and Rogue are 2 of my only 4 non-touched-since-Cata classes. The others being DK (cuz I'm not a big fan of them) and Monk (because I power rushed him to 85 so now I'm bored of im atm).

Also, I have EVERY class at 85-87, and Mage/Priest at 90.

11/22/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Only reason to bring a hunter is so you have a class to give the mail agility to.


ENH Shaman?

Also, Hunters fill the buff gap. They can also bring the very desired Spell Haste buff on top of nearly any other buff in the game. They're essentially the Joker/Wild Card of buffs.

11/22/2012 07:48 PMPosted by Melhunt
Which has just about nothing to do with this thread's topic (why no raiding guild should ever take a pure DPS).


Pretty much. I like how everyone assumes DPS is everything when it comes to a raid group.

If we didn't have a boomkin tranq and nature's vigil for our healing rotations, we might not be where we are atm. (We also run with THREE pures >_>; Mage, Hunter, Rogue. Ret Paladin and Boomkin being our other 2)

There is a benefit to being a pure.

We get 3 different ways to dps so if we like to dps we get 3 different styles.


Oh yay. Three different ways to DPS, how amazing.

Oh wait, Warriors, Shamans, Druids, and Death Knights all get 2 different ways to DPS, and they all have some form of raid utility (Shamans and Druids I went into. Warriors get those banners/rallying cry, and DKs get Death Grip [it's quite helpful in some scenarios], Anti-Magic Zone, and IIRC, they had a raid-wide heal, but I can't remember)

11/22/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Kraddark
A) give hybrids more choices in their playstyle when it comes to dpsing.


Okay, so this would just further bolster my point of "why bother playing a pure?"

11/22/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Kraddark
B) Make all 4 pure classes a hybrid.


Would love that. This would also cause them to give us some nice raid-wide cooldowns.

Spriests-Really good spot right now. Good offheals.
Boomkins-Decent. Haha, heals?
Shamans-Enhance and Ele have been hit pretty hard, they deserve something. Also not sure if they're even that great


All have great healing.

11/22/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Lunarlife
Palidans-Haha ret dps?


Tell that to my raid's Ret, who's currently dominating on DPS (he's also Rank 1 Ret for Garalon :D)

11/22/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Lunarlife
Seems that both pures and hybrids have their ups and downs right now. Pures are one of the strongest atm.


In terms of damage, purely, and only TWO out of TWELVE pure speccs are doing great: Fire and Affliction (Frost is decent). The other nine speccs are blech.
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90 Undead Warlock
0
11/22/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Kamine
- Hunters and Warlocks in 5.1 will have zero loss of DPS while moving


I can't speak for hunters, but warlocks snare themselves when moving while casting. In raid situations where you absolutely HAVE to get out of an area before you're clobbered, it can actually be a bad bad thing to have that debuff, especially if your demonic teleport is on CD from a previous phase.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Pures having 3 ways to dps isn't really a good point when half the time, depending on the patch, one or two of those specs are either broken or non viable dps for PVE.

You will never see any hunter worth his salt spec MM for any fight right now for example. It's literally broken. So in reality we only have 2 specs while hybrids still always have at least a functional heal or tank tree if their other 2 specs are dps.


Exactly. Not to mention, it's not like I can do other speccs mid-combat.

11/22/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Kamine
- Mages have some rather powerful cleave built into their rotation, high burst damage and low cooldown dependence. Note that multi-dotters actually have to forego their standard rotation to do so, leading to less of a gain. Combat and Arms cleave have rather massive penalties attached to them.


And to tax us with this, they give us awful L90 talents that completely restrict us in one category, whether it's mobility (Invo/RoP) or our actual DPS (IW).

11/22/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Kamine
Seems like some pretty great perks for me, or is healing 10k HPS over the course of a raid boss as a shaman or shadow priest that big of a deal?


What great perks? Please tell them to me.

11/22/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Kamine
- Hunters and Warlocks in 5.1 will have zero loss of DPS while moving


Yeah, with the exception of this one. Mages and Rogues are still in an AWFUL spot, especially after 5.1 (when Mages get hit with 6 nerfs, some of which, like Ice Barrier being nerfed, will even hurt PvE)

11/22/2012 09:39 PMPosted by Kamine
Its not a whole lot different for other hybrids. People seem to think that hybrids can do everything, when in reality none of the plate hybrids can really just throw on their tanking buff and live longer than their defensive CDs.


Seems long enough for someone to Battlerez the tank who died while we rebuff him, hybrids use some mana to heal him, and then everything's back to normal.

11/22/2012 09:39 PMPosted by Kamine
The healing from a PvE perspective isn't that good either - People just see hybrids popping a cooldown in PvP perspective and thinking "OMGNERF!.


This is a PvE thread. Your comment has no point here. I don't think "OMGNERF!" I think "wtf, where's MY raid cooldown?".

PS: If you say Time Warp, I will hurt you.

11/22/2012 09:39 PMPosted by Kamine
At 473, my flash of light heals for around 32k and I can hard cast it twice in a row.


I'm guessing you don't know what Selfless Healer or WoG is, huh? Oh or your L90 talents.

11/22/2012 09:39 PMPosted by Kamine
Feral and Enhancement are the same way, no hard cast healing, only maelstrom x 5 or cooldowns.


Feral has talents that allow them to heal while damaging, or change roles temporarily. ENH has Maelstrom, and if you don't think that's that big of a deal: I leveled my ENH Shaman back during Cata as Enhancement. Once I got Maelstrom from leveling, and until level 76, I queued EVERY dungeon as a Healer. Know why? Maelstrom is godlike for healing when leveling (and hell it's even pretty decent now). With the 20% healing per stack buff from the Glyph, it's even more awesome. The fact that you shrug that off is a joke.

11/22/2012 09:39 PMPosted by Kamine
As elemental, the heals were only around 66% as good, getting a 50% bonus to make it meaningfully useful after crits.


Okay, and Elemental has unlimited mana (unless you're using CL spam on 1-2 targets) and their L75 talent choice, as well as Healing Stream Totem (which does help a bit).

11/22/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Tonìc
Rogues, Warlocks, and Mages are at the top of the dps charts right now.


Combat, Affliction, and Fire*

Also, this isn't purely about DPS.

11/22/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Tonìc
Healthstones and summoning portal are invaluable. I can't imagine raiding without them. Multi-dotting is awesome!


Yeah, Warlocks are the only pure to have some nice raid utility, tbh. They can even OT for a moment as Demo.

11/22/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Tonìc
Mages have a tremendous amount of control and a ranged silence, which are helpful on Will of the Emperor.


Notice how you said "on Will of the Emperor". Care to name another fight that crap is useful on? No. You can't. Because it doesn't exist.

11/22/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Tonìc
They also bring snack tables and 5% crit, which is generally hard to get unless you run a Windwalker Monk or Feral Druid.


Or a Hunter, who can bring the Still Water buff, which is an exact clone of Arcane/Dalaran Brilliance (even brings 10% SP).

I also thought Warriors still brought that. Huh, I guess it is a bit rarer than I thought, but meh.

Also, food tables? Really? So I have so much raid utility that I save people some gold on food that gives no buffs. Yaaaaaay...

11/22/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Tonìc
Like a Warlock, Fire Mages can do quite a lot if the fight allows for multi-dotting.


Hah... ahahaha... really? You can't be serious...
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/22/2012 11:01 PMPosted by Charmane
all the talents that hybrids had that let them perform the desired role were baked in; leaving the feeling that they got the better exchange in the MoP talent transition.


It's more than that though. They all have at LEAST one cooldown for the raid (Even Melee hybrids!) that is VERY helpful! (Warriors and Shamans being the only ones that provide a DPS cooldown, those being Skull Banner and Stormlash Totem) They generally have more than one though (Same two classes, Rallying Cry and Healing Tide Totem/Ancestral Guidance), while Pures have nothing.

11/23/2012 12:10 AMPosted by Zanatose
- Hunters and Warlocks in 5.1 will have zero loss of DPS while moving


I can't speak for hunters, but warlocks snare themselves when moving while casting. In raid situations where you absolutely HAVE to get out of an area before you're clobbered, it can actually be a bad bad thing to have that debuff, especially if your demonic teleport is on CD from a previous phase.


Oh I know it can hurt, but if I could trade 30% movement speed just to allow Invocation to be cast while moving, I would, let alone ALL of my spells.

If it's really that bad, then choose Archimonde's Vengeance. None of those three talents restrict you in a way (like the Mage L90 talents), with the exception of KJ's Cunning, but it gives you such an amazing benefit that it's quite justifiable. Meanwhile, I'm restricted in such a horrible way, and if I DON'T use them, I'm no longer competitive DPS, let alone VIABLE DPS. (Try doing viable DPS w/o choosing a L90 talent as a Mage. I dare you)
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90 Orc Warrior
11685
11/23/2012 12:13 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Hah... ahahaha... really? You can't be serious...


Fire Mages have some of the best cleave in the game, which is what I assume he meant.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Hah... ahahaha... really? You can't be serious...


Fire Mages have some of the best cleave in the game, which is what I assume he meant.


Fire Mages can do quite a lot if the fight allows for multi-dotting.


multi-dotting.


Odd, I don't see cleave anywhere in his sentence. I see "multi-dotting", which means *Tab, DoT, Tab, DoT, Tab, DoT*.

Had he actually said "some of the best CLEAVE in the game", I would have instantly agreed with him, but reminded that this thread isn't purely (lol I made a pun) about DPS.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/23/2012 12:24 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
20590
I love arguing about semantics.

We both know what I meant, stop being a dope.
Edited by Tonìc on 11/23/2012 1:18 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
11685
Odd, I don't see cleave anywhere in his sentence. I see "multi-dotting", which means *Tab, DoT, Tab, DoT, Tab, DoT*.

Had he actually said "some of the best CLEAVE in the game", I would have instantly agreed with him, but reminded that this thread isn't purely (lol I made a pun) about DPS.


I said it was my assumption that he had just made a mistake in terminology. No need to get so hostile.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
I love arguing about semantics.

We both know what I meant, stop being a dope.


Okay, and it's still DPS. This thread it about more.

Also, we have great 3 target cleave, but can't AoE for crap. We have great long-term 3-target cleave, and superb short-term AoE (for Frost). Zero long-term AoE (or short-term for Fire)

11/23/2012 01:19 AMPosted by Nodokk
I said it was my assumption that he had just made a mistake in terminology. No need to get so hostile.


No hostility. Just tired cuz it's 5AM and I had woke up a few hours ago.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/23/2012 2:08 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
16765
Honestly the difference between a hybrid and a pure is almost nil, each class just has its own toolkit and there's really not much of a common theme at all between one "hybrid" and another. Some hybrids (though not all) can respec and perform a different role in a raid group with the same gear, which is part of their toolkit for sure, but then pures respec from fight to fight to take advantage of different strengths too. Some hybrids have exceptional offhealing capabilities (like say a shadow priest or feral druid) and others have virtually none (like a windwalker monk or a ret paladin). Some have great utility kits (like a fury/arms warrior) and others don't. There's nothing particularly special about a balance druid being able to respec resto if needed that is necessarily any more valuable than any other ability any particular class has. The utility offered by being able to provide different kinds of DPS tailored to different kinds of fights is just as valuable in a progression situation, if not more so, and actual utility abilities you can use while performing your own role are generally much more useful to your raid team.

If you want to look at, for example, a warrior and complain about their utility in a raid environment that's fine, but the fact that a DPS warrior has two offensive raid utility cooldowns and two defensive raid CDs to go with their own class abilities is a way bigger issue than the fact that they can respec with an entirely new set of gear and tank.

Mages have three specs with different strengths that are valuable on different fights. You can cleave, AoE, sustained single target, burst-oriented single target and have excellent mobility and survivability, and mages are highly desired for their DPS and this flexibility. If you could also respec to a 4th spec and heal it would hardly matter because you'd have a raid spot as a DPS regardless. It wouldn't suddenly make you a magic new class capable of doing so many new things, you'd just be the same mage unless you put together a healing set and decided to perform a different role on a particular fight. In other words, it'd just be one more thing you could do, not a massive shift in playstyle or a huge boost to viability.
Edited by Gondlem on 11/23/2012 4:51 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
10675
11/22/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Kalorea
Top end guilds continue to take pures (even Hunters) so you're obviously wrong about something.


No they are right. Hunters are lowest on just about every fight. Not every top guild stacks the best class once they have buffs.


Nope, none at all. Well, unless you need a specific buff that no one else is bringing that the hunter can by using the correct pet.

Or being ranged in a "blizz hates melee" game.

Or having 2 cc's which *gasp* not only WORK in raids, but actually makes several pulls MUCH easier.

No advantages whatsoever.

Learn your class, THEN complain. OR stop using hyperbole that makes you look ignorant.

I'm not even saying hunters don't have problems that need fixing (they do). But I am saying that EVERY class brings SOMETHING to the mix. Claiming that yours doesn't is disingenuous at best.
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90 Human Priest
6925
I'd rather bring a mage or a lock into my raid group then a boomy or ele shammy.
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90 Human Paladin
10930
Shadow priest tranq is really garbage and is not worth using, almost ever.

It does about 350k healing to all 10 raid members, so about 35k per person. You're sacrificing 8 seconds of dps time to do 350k raid healing. You can do more than that in 8 seconds just by spamming Flash Heals.

And pures don't have utility?

How about rogues having some of the best raid survivability through feint, solid single target and the best damn cleave? If OP can use Shadow priest tranq as an argument then what about rogues getting Growl from Symbiosis. Being able to become a tank for 30 seconds every three minutes is MUCH, MUCH better than Boomkins becoming a tank for 45 seconds every 6 minutes, which by the way was another one of OP's many weak points.

How about lock cookies and the freakin' cool lock portals. Those portals are invaluable on heroic Stone Guards and Shek'zeer, to name a couple. And amazing single target dps and even more amazing multi-dotting.

Hunter dps is not really that bad at all. It's not the greatest but it's not so bad that you're going to be sat for any fight if you're in a casual guild like I'm sure 99% of you in this thread are. Not even the hardcore guilds are sitting hunters so you really have nothing to worry about. Unless you're pushing bleeding edge progression then you shouldn't really worry about hunter dps not being at the top. Stop worrying so much about players and guilds that you will never play with do. Hunters suffer no penalty for moving. How is that not a plus? Hunters are arguably the best kiters on Garalon. And being able to fill in the gaps for just about any buff? Yes please.

Mages have really awesome single target dps and incredible burst. They also have really good crowd control. And Fire mages shoot freakin' fire. What's not to like? Okay maybe mages are slightly lacking in the utility deparment, but hunters, rogues and warlocks are perfectly fine. People are complaining just for the sake of complaining.
Edited by Sliphe on 11/23/2012 6:23 AM PST
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