What's the point of being a pure nowadays?

100 Goblin Rogue
15350
11/22/2012 05:03 PMPosted by Enhancedone
What's the point of being a pure nowadays?


Because you enjoy the playstyle.

/thread


HA

rogue playstyle is interchangeable. you can make 3 macros and have them work across all 3 specs for dps.

As to OP... i WISH rogue lv90 talents were as thought out as yours are
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90 Human Paladin
10930


As to OP... i WISH rogue lv90 talents were as thought out as yours are


Versatility and Anticipation both look really cool. What's wrong with them?
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100 Goblin Rogue
15350


As to OP... i WISH rogue lv90 talents were as thought out as yours are


Versatility and Anticipation both look really cool. What's wrong with them?


bland, boring bandaid fixes to outdated mechanics that offer no choice.

PVE? anticipation

PVP? ST

The biggest problem is if tomorrow blizzard decided to baseline all three rogues wouldn't be imbalanced.

They're useful to some extent, but claiming any of them are worthy of lv90 is farcical.
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95 Night Elf Druid
9620
11/23/2012 04:49 AMPosted by Gondlem
Mages have three specs with different strengths that are valuable on different fights.


This is a problem, not a bonus. Hybrids wouldn't appreciate being pushed to respec from fight to fight, why do they think it's okay to make pures do it?
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/23/2012 04:49 AMPosted by Gondlem
Honestly the difference between a hybrid and a pure is almost nil, each class just has its own toolkit and there's really not much of a common theme at all between one "hybrid" and another.


Before I read your wall of text post, I'm just going to comment on this. The toolkit for a pure is almost entirely self-based, while a fair chunk of the hybrid toolkit (Ranging from about 10-30%) are group/raid based. That one factor alone is not "nil" by any means.

11/23/2012 04:59 AMPosted by Williame
Or having 2 cc's which *gasp* not only WORK in raids, but actually makes several pulls MUCH easier.


Name me one boss in relevant raiding (Tier 14) where CC actually helps you pull it easier.

Besides Will of the Emperor, name me a boss where CC is relevant (PS: Druids and Shamans work just as well)

Please don't use CC as a point in your argument in a PvE thread.

And pures don't have utility?

How about rogues having some of the best raid survivability through feint, solid single target and the best damn cleave?


Self-survivability is self-utility. Damage is in NO WAY "utility".

I'm referring to having something that groups will want to add to the raid's toolkit.

11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
How about lock cookies and the freakin' cool lock portals. Those portals are invaluable on heroic Stone Guards and Shek'zeer, to name a couple.


Yes, Warlocks are the odd one out when it comes to raid-wide utility. They're the only one of the four that have some sort of raid-wide usefulness.

11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
And amazing single target dps and even more amazing multi-dotting.


Yet again, damage != utility.

11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
Hunter dps is not really that bad at all.


11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
Mages have really awesome single target dps and incredible burst.


DAMAGE IS NOT UTILITY!!!!

11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
They also have really good crowd control


Besides Will, name me one fight that is relevant (Tier 14) that requires CC usage. (Also, Shamans and Druids work just as well)

11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
And Fire mages shoot freakin' fire.


... Is that actually a point to strengthen your really shoddy argument?

11/23/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Sliphe
Okay maybe mages are slightly lacking in the utility deparment, but hunters, rogues and warlocks are perfectly fine.


Lol "Slightly" lacking. Warlocks are "slightly" lacking. Mages Rogues and Hunters have NO raid-utility, with the exception of Hunters having a wild card on buffs.

11/23/2012 06:12 AMPosted by Liadon
As to OP... i WISH rogue lv90 talents were as thought out as yours are


NO. NO YOU DO NOT.

Trust me, I wish I had a "meh" passive like yours. If I could get a thing that allows me to store an extra Arcane Missiles, Hot Streak, or Brain Freeze, I would GLADLY take it. Mages have, by far, the WORST L90 talents. I would instantly swap L90 talent tiers with any other class. I'D EVEN PREFER TOTEMIC PROJECTION (Shaman L45) OVER MY L90 TALENTS (Assuming they would buff Mage DPS to compensate)

11/23/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Liadon
bland, boring bandaid fixes to outdated mechanics that offer no choice.


.............. what do my talents "fix" exactly? They do nothing but cause more problems.

11/23/2012 07:16 AMPosted by Ginx
This is a problem, not a bonus. Hybrids wouldn't appreciate being pushed to respec from fight to fight, why do they think it's okay to make pures do it?


Agreed. Not to mention Arcane is garbage atm and anyone who is raiding seriously won't even bother with that crap.
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14 Blood Elf Priest
0

What playstyle?

Mages are pretty much back to the way there were in Wrath. Each one spams a bolt, it just changes colors depending on what spec you are. Yay.

Hunters are just un enjoyable even when compared to cata. I'd take cata hunter back in a heart beat compared to what we got now. At least we had 1 good spec.

Rogues are just in a bad place. They are still good for cleave fights, and damage is ok. But the down time in the rotation leaves you pulling your hair out in frustration over having nothing to do and no control over it.

As for Warlocks. I actually like warlocks really. Sure they have their problems with certain things but for the most part I think blizzard is on the right track there. Just some tweaking might help with a few QoL stuff.


You just explained definition of playstyle.

Hunters : BM for exotic pets and BW-STAMPEDENIGGI. MM for pewpew relies on bow. Surv are dots.. traps.. moar dots and moar traps!!!

Locks : dots dots dots for affli, boom boom boom for destro and Yo-I-Am-An-Illidan-Wannabe for demo

Mages : 1111211121112 for arcane, *snoozefest*HOLYPROC - PYRO COMBUST for fire and ZOMGWTFSKILLLANCE for frost

Rogues : assassin for blazingspeedASPD and master of poison, combat for warriors-DW-wannabe-but-I-chose-teh-wrong-class, and sub if you feel like dancing.

That is playstyle.
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90 Human Paladin
5685
Tsulong - Adds susceptible to both long and short duration CC

Wind Lord Mel'jarak - Adds susceptible to both long and short duration. Quickening is dispellable, but is also a stacking 10% damage/haste buff that can be spellstolen

Empress Shek'zeer - Adds susceptible to short duration CC

Lei Shi - Water elementals supposed to be CC'd on normal. Usually ignorable on LFR.

Maybe its not every fight in the game, but CC certainly has it's place in raids.

I still think you are seriously overplaying the value of raid utility. Lets say I use devotion aura during Elegon's execute phase, ticks for an average of 10k a second. 20% damage reduction for 6 seconds, so it mitigates 12k damage over 6 seconds per person.

So, my cooldown mitigates about as much as one greater heal, spread over a 10 man raid. Or in 25 man, or 2.5 greater heals in a 25-man if everybody is stacked. Unless the script calls for it, they probably won't be - ranged love to spread out and stay at max range.
Edited by Kamine on 11/23/2012 8:10 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Wind Lord Mel'jarak - Adds susceptible to both long and short duration. Quickening is dispellable, but is also a stacking 10% damage/haste buff that can be spellstolen


WRONG. I've tried it. Some stuff can be dispelled by Spellsteal (similar to Purge), but not stealable. This is one of them, and trust me, I've tried this _MANY_ times.

11/23/2012 08:04 AMPosted by Kamine
Tsulong - Adds susceptible to both long and short duration CC


11/23/2012 08:04 AMPosted by Kamine
Empress Shek'zeer - Adds susceptible to short duration CC


11/23/2012 08:04 AMPosted by Kamine
Lei Shi - Water elementals supposed to be CC'd on normal. Usually ignorable on LFR.


Uh... none of those sheepable; these are all just slows, something a ton of classes have a lot more of/better than Mages. (Cone of Cold is the only thing that comes to mind, and that forces me to get close up to them. That, or use Frostfire Bolt, which takes too long)

11/23/2012 08:04 AMPosted by Kamine
Maybe its not every fight in the game, but CC certainly has it's place in raids.


No, slows do. I wouldn't call slows a CC; none of these instances you've given me require actual CC (sheep), with the exception to the Water Elementals as I haven't gotten to do Lei Shi on normal yet (will be doing so this Monday). If they're actually HARD CCable, then yeah, Shamans and Druids (and Warlocks) do it way better because I can't do much but short-term freeze/slow it.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/23/2012 8:08 AM PST
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90 Undead Monk
4710
Pures are usually OP because they have more choices. They can share gear between 3 specializations and simply pick the best flavor of the month spec for any PVE or PVP situation.

- Mages will play Fire in PVE and Frost in PVP.
- Warlock will play Affliction in PVE and Demonology in PVP.
- Hunters will play Beast Mastery in PVE and PVP.
- Rogues will play Assassination in PVE, but all their specs are weak in PVP.

For a pure, there's always an extremely high chance that at least one of their 3 specs is OP in PVE or PVP. Compare that to something like a Ret Paladin or a Windwalker Monk. If those specs are weak in any situation, the player does have any real choices.

A Windwalker or a Ret Paladin can't just tank or heal on fights their spec sucks at. We never switch role based on whether we're strong at a particular fight or not, we only switch role based on guild need. That means if a tank is absent one night, a Windwalker could switch spec to Brewmaster and tank in his place.

A Ret Paladin couldn't perform any other role without a full set of offspec gear which is usually impractical during progression. The gear is going to be significantly weaker in these cases, so the idea is only going to be entertained if the spec happens to be crazy overpowered for that particular encounter.

Each expansion Blizzard makes major changes to every spec and the relative power of each is almost randomized. Your spec could land at the top or the bottom of the ladder. A pure has 3 chances to land at the top.
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90 Human Paladin
5685
long duration CC works on Unstable Sha for Tsulong. Very useful if you have to take a side for yourself. Stuns work on all of them, very useful if the tank is slow to pick up or you are dealing with a fixating add.

EDIT: NM, forgot about mob classification. Can still use frostjaw/ring of frost on them though.
Edited by Kamine on 11/23/2012 8:15 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/23/2012 08:12 AMPosted by Kamine
long duration CC works on Unstable Sha for Tsulong


Okay, and yet another thing I don't have. So I guess you're trying to debunk my "name me a fight that requires CC" argument by strengthening my point that "Pures suck". Shamans and Druids EASILY beat Mages for long-CC on Sha.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Pures are usually OP because they have more choices. They can share gear between 3 specializations and simply pick the best flavor of the month spec for any PVE or PVP situation.
-----
... Without a full set of offspec gear which is usually impractical during progression. The gear is going to be significantly weaker in these cases, so the idea is only going to be entertained if the spec happens to be crazy overpowered for that particular encounter.


More choices? Arcane is a worthless specc atm, so I only have two speccs. Frost sucks compared to Fire, so now I have one optimal choice and one "acceptable" choice.

Also, a Ret Paladin cannot DO another DPS role, so I don't see how there's "another spec that happens to be crazy overpowered". Also, if you're going to include swapping between PvP and PvE sets, well, you do different things to get each set anyway.

For a pure, there's always an extremely high chance that at least one of their 3 specs is OP in PVE or PVP.
-----
A pure has 3 chances to land at the top.


Oh. Okay. Being a pure gives me better RNG. Wow, that's fantastic. I wish I could have this "awesome RNG" on my gear drops.

If that's really your point, that's quite pathetic.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
Pretty much there are no more hybrids anymore. Instead of having pures and hybrids we have every spec bringing some sort of "raid utility" now. This was done primarily because in the past it felt necessary to bring some hybrids in order to achieve success. This didn't fit into Blizzard's "bring the player, not the class" moto.

Gear has also changed significantly to the point where you have to gear very specifically for your spec so it take much more investment then it used to.

For example did you know that a shadow priest's vampiric embrace used to heal the priest's party for 50% of shadow damage done. By the time of cata, it has been reduced to 3% lol. Now it is simply another raid cd. That's a great example of how hybrids specs have been changed to pure specs over the years.

Anyway to answer your question, the bonus of being a pure is that you have 3 styles of damage dealing specs to choose from. There specs can be even more specialized to damage dealing. Rogues in 4.3 were a great example. They has sub which specialized in excellent burst, combat which has great cleave, and assassination which had good AoE. However all three specs did comparable single target damage in a patchwork situation. You could also swap between then to meet a specific fight's needs. Great design.

The "hybrids" of today have to deal with 1 or 2 damage dealing specs that can't be as specialized, however they also having the option of gearing up a healing or tanking spec without re-leveling a character.

I agree that Blizzard doesn't always do the best job of providing every damage dealing spec the raid utility it deserves, but in the end the design intent is that they all be equal in that department. Thus the problem is more a personal class or spec problem then a pure vs. hybrid problem. Hybrids as we used to know them are largely extinct.
Edited by Faust on 11/23/2012 8:37 AM PST
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90 Undead Monk
4710
11/23/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
More choices? Arcane is a worthless specc atm, so I only have two speccs. Frost sucks compared to Fire, so now I have one optimal choice and one "acceptable" choice.


You have choices, of course you're always going to pick the best spec. Pretty much every class has one "acceptable" choice per fight per role.

Do you expect all 3 of your specs to do the exact same DPS? More choices means that in the next patch they might buff Arcane Mages and you switch to Arcane Mage as the new flavor of the month best spec. It's happened a million times in the past.

If the Windwalker spec is bad, I have no real choices. I chose to be a Monk melee DPS. The fact is that Windwalkers are middle of the pack in PVE and about the worst in PVP.

Right now 3 of the 4 pure DPS classes are in the top 4 DPS specs. What more do you want? Hunters are the only pures who are weak at the moment in PVE.

11/23/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Also, a Ret Paladin cannot DO another DPS role, so I don't see how there's "another spec that happens to be crazy overpowered".


Are you arguing against your own point? You're trying to say "what's the point of playing a pure" while you're stating the fact that a Ret Paladin has basically zero options.

Regardless, I'm not talking about an overpowered DPS role, I was talking about healing or tanking. I'm saying that those of us without 3 pure DPS specs who play as DPS usually only get called upon to play offspecs if our offspecs have an ability the raid needs to kill the boss. For example, in the past there have been encounters where certain healing specs would do double or triple the healing of other specs. Not often, but it has happened. Even though a hybrid's offspec gear isn't up to par, the net healing gain could be much higher to swap out a main healer for a hybrid's offspec.

Other times some fights benefit from an unusually high number of healers (8-9). Most guilds have a roster of around 6-7 so in those circumstances a hybrid could switch specs to kill the boss. Similarly, even though most fights usually require 2 tanks or sometimes 1 tank, you get the oddball fight that needs 3-4. Hybrids are handy to have. But it's not the same as how a Rogue specs Combat for cleave fights so he can consistently top meters regardless of fight.
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90 Worgen Druid
14435
Boy, you're really on that whole "lv90 mage talents are life-ending, game-destroying, mages have no utility are completely useless, nobody ever brings them to raids" stuff huh?
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100 Goblin Warlock
18060
There is a benefit to being a pure.

We get 3 different ways to dps so if we like to dps we get 3 different styles.

Hybrids get 2 different ways to dps so if they like to dps they only get 2 different styles.

The only thing is that there is only so much variation you can work into a spec before it becomes either way stronger or weaker than the others.

I personally think they should just add 4th talent trees to every class to either:

A) give hybrids more choices in their playstyle when it comes to dpsing.

B) Make all 4 pure classes a hybrid.

I'd very much prefer this over a new race or class next expac but I can see the logistical nightmare it would become trying to balance 30 new specs.


Hybrids with 2 dps trees are far more varied than the 3 specs pures have.

Enh vs ele. Feral vs balance. Those 2 spec by specs are far more differing playstyle than ANY pure has. Pures do NOT have 3 different ways to play. They have 3 different colors.

Pures: Red knife, blue knife, yellow knife

Hybrids: Orange Gun, Purple knife, Green Cannon
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100 Goblin Warlock
18060


Versatility and Anticipation both look really cool. What's wrong with them?


bland, boring bandaid fixes to outdated mechanics that offer no choice.

PVE? anticipation

PVP? ST

The biggest problem is if tomorrow blizzard decided to baseline all three rogues wouldn't be imbalanced.

They're useful to some extent, but claiming any of them are worthy of lv90 is farcical.


If all 3 lock lvl 90 talents were baseline tomorrow it wouldn't change anything either.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12395
If you're going to count the whole 'pures can respec for the optimal dps spec on a given fight,' thing as an 'advantage'(which is generally false given pure specs almost always have one good spec, one decent spec, and one suck spec) then you have to count the 'hybrids can tank or heal to save/get into a raid'.

Hybrid players seem to think that pures don't get attached to their specs. Just because My other spec is also dps doesn't mean I don't mind switching. Just as ret paladins don't want to go holy or prot even if it means raiding, I don't want to go combat/assassination, I'd rather get my spec fixed.

As for utility, I am with Pew in the sense that self utility doesn't count. Some classes bring great group utility. Most of them are hybrid classes. The whole 'but pures can CC/interrupt better' thing used to be true, but just like damage, CC was spread around, while utility lagged behind.

I think part of the problem is the talent trees. 3/4 pure classes have bad trees with specific tiers that are underwhelming. There is no need to argue about who has the worst tier, the fact is that some are simply abysmal. It feels like pure talent choices restrict the character, where certain hybrid talent choice actually give more freedom.

There is more to 'dps' when it comes to value, and 'i like the playstyle' is subjective and has no bearing whatsoever on balance. The problem is, Pures are lacking or breaking even in just about all forms of value(quantifiable or otherwise)

Edit: Also, I would think that comments from Blizzard saying they do not intend to add another pure class in the near future/at this time, coupled with the introduction of a rogue analog(copy) that can tank or heal(right after an expansion where Rogue population hits an all time low) makes it pretty clear that Pure design is inferior and archaic at this stage in the game.
Edited by Tyiako on 11/23/2012 9:35 AM PST
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90 Troll Warrior
11630
11/22/2012 05:03 PMPosted by Enhancedone
Because you enjoy the playstyle.


So many people scoff at this answer. I have no idea why, because it's the correct answer to the question at hand.

These threads pop up from time to time, with a lot of the same people saying "there's no reason to play my pure dps, gonna roll hybrid." Yet, months later, they still play and post on their same pure main.

Pures are adequately represented in raids. Therefore, clearly, there is something drawing people to play pures; yourselves included. If you can't find a reason to play your pure anymore, well, that's fine. Roll a hybrid. Achieves, mounts, titles, etc. are all account-wide, and leveling takes a week.

Just don't pretend that there is a fundamental, systematic flaw with pure dps. Your tastes have just changed.
Edited by Obzen on 11/23/2012 9:50 AM PST
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95 Night Elf Druid
9620
11/23/2012 09:31 AMPosted by Tyiako
Hybrid players seem to think that pures don't get attached to their specs.


Not just hybrids think this, apparently blizzard thinks so too which is why they've kept pures riding the respec rollercoaster for the last 2 expansions.

Hybrids being pushed into off-specs from encounter to encounter = bad.
Pures being pushed into off-specs from encounter to encounter = good.

Double standard?
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