Topic
What's the point of being a pure nowadays?
I heard 1284% of all statistics are real. I'm not trollish, I'm just debunking your claims using rational arguments, and you can't handle it. Oh, so reroll = solving the problem? No, that's a band-aid fix that shouldn't be resorted to. I shouldn't have to reroll to fix an issue. If it's me wanting to actually become a healer and/or a tank, then I'll agree with you, but not when it comes to something like this.
Exactly. Rerolling should be your last case scenario. Tell me again, how aren't pure dps in a good spot? They have no appeal? No purpose? No point to bring them to a raid? Everyone should just roll hybrids since they're infinitely more useful and appealing? You seem to be missing the point and are only talking about DPS. Yes, most pures atm have a pretty good spot on the DPS meter, but DPS isn't everything. Also, since this is now a DPS issue, they should buff Hybrid DPS to be competitive if those numbers are in fact factual. Also keep in mind, many guilds don't parse at all because they're too lazy or just don't care. I assume we should just ignore them, right?
This would be near impossible due to there only being 3 hybrid casters and unless you want to add same classes together, you probably won't be able to do this. |
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Here's how a DPS chart should look:
Mage/Warlock/Rogue/Hunter 100k Warrior/Death Knight/Shaman/Priest 90k Druid/Paladin/Monk 80k Damage goes down, utility goes up, really simple concept. |
Here's how a DPS chart should look: So at what point does a class have so much utility that it's require to bring them to raid? Hybrid utility has been nerfed into the ground in comparison to vanilla wow because it was the opposite of the "bring the player, not the class moto." Over the years shadow priests have had 50% vampiric embrace, were a raid's mana battery, and provided a 3% hit debuff and a 10% increased shadow damage debuff. However all those things went out the window in order in exchange for better dps so that people did not feel that it was necessary to bring them over other players. |
Here's how a DPS chart should look: I agree - you should not penalized in your main role for your ability to possibly contribute elsewhere. The simple fact that you are doing something other than DPSing (ot an add, healing for a bit, ect.) will impact your overall dps in its own right. There is no need for further punishment. The issue is not whether this class is played more or not. This is not an issue of who can do more dps. It is simply an issue of needing something extra from a raid member. If all you need is "moar damage" then you can generally ask a pure. You can also ask that of a hybrid. However; if you need anything else, you're probably going to have ask a hybrid. And Obzen, if you're going to look at things in a vacuum, (looking only at DPS specs) then I just don't know how we can have a meaningful discussion. I can look at a small portion of my yard and say "there's no snow here in this 6" x 6" area" and make the determination that it didn't snow here last night, but that wouldn't make it true. Also, just for funsies, why do you have a prot off spec? |
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Edited by Nodokk on 11/23/12 5:33 PM (PST)
The question of why should you bring a pure over a hybrid seems kind of pointless. I'm sure at some point, in the fairly long history of WoW, that some idiot raid leader sat one of his raiders because that raider was playing a pure class. But it's so far from the norm that it's almost entirely meaningless. If pure classes actually had significant issues being taken to raids then this thread would be truly warranted, but there isn't any such issue. When it becomes completely undeniable that the representation of pures in raiding is being significantly outclassed by hybrids (in this case we'd have to look at hybrid who almost purely DPS, like Obzen did in his own analysis), then we can discuss this issue properly. Until then, this just seems like pointless fear-mongering.
Also, I think we'd see hybrid stacking a lot more in high end guilds if it was as effective as people seem to believe it would be. |
The question of why should you bring a pure over a hybrid seems kind of pointless. I'm sure at some point, in the fairly long history of WoW, that some idiot raid leader sat one of his raiders because that raider was playing a pure class. But it's so far from the norm that it's almost entirely meaningless. If pure classes actually had significant issues being taken to raids then this thread would be truly warranted, but there isn't any such issue. When it becomes completely undeniable that the representation of pures in raiding is being significantly outclassed by hybrids (in this case we'd have to look at hybrid who almost purely DPS, like Obzen did in his own analysis), then we can discuss this issue properly. Until then, this just seems like pointless fear-mongering. Hunters are being sat as we speak for classes that do more damage. Hunter is a pure dps class that doesn't perform as well as some hybrid dps specs. I don't play a hunter so it doesn't really effect me but it does legitimize what your eager to dismiss. |
Here's how a DPS chart should look: the dead horse must have twitched; cause you are beating on it again. this argument was resolved years ago. there is no such thing as a hybrid tax. if it did exist it would have to be applied in areas other than damage. (ie pallies/druids are worse tanks than DKs/warriors). pures have unique playstyles, and bring good utility. i have just as much fun playing my warlock and hunter as i do when i play my warrior, pally, and druid. my rogue is boring, but that isn't an issue with pures being lower class. just a matter of all the life being sucked out of the class when MoP came out. |
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Hybrid Tax was never officially removed. Show me a post where it said that? People just assumed because with the new forums the hybrid tax sticky was no longer there. Going into cata blizz said it fully intended to still keep it going.
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Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/23/12 6:51 PM (PST)
Here's how a DPS chart should look: Lol no. So at what point does a class have so much utility that it's require to bring them to raid? Hybrid utility has been nerfed into the ground in comparison to vanilla wow because it was the opposite of the "bring the player, not the class moto." Over the years shadow priests have had 50% vampiric embrace, were a raid's mana battery, and provided a 3% hit debuff and a 10% increased shadow damage debuff. However all those things went out the window in order in exchange for better dps so that people did not feel that it was necessary to bring them over other players. Yet they still have Hymn of Hope and Vampiric Embrace, and they're quite good on the DPS atm. Coincidence? I think not.
Perhaps this is also why many hybrids aren't top of the meters. Hell, our Boomkin and Ret do AMAZING DPS, though when the Boomkin needs to use Tranq during heroism, it's obviously going to dampen his DPS. Hybrid DPS for the most part isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
I'm not talking about pure effectiveness. I'm not talking about DPS. I'm talking about the fact that I'm just the guy with numbers and nothing else, whether needed by my raid or not. I don't feel like I'm part of the team when I have nothing BUT numbers. I don't interact with them at all besides damaging my enemies (which happens to be their enemies).
Bingo. pures have unique playstyles, and bring SELF good utility Fix't that for you.
Yes it has been removed. The fact that Blizzard really sucks at balancing the DPS of the classes is their own fault, but it's in no way an intentional Hybrid Tax, it's more a "we're slow at balancing" tax. |
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There was never a statement of removal. The last word was "yes it still is in the design goals"
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The issues is really this:
Hybrids can do many things, pure DPS cannot. When a pure is doing a perfect rotation and maximizing everything and a hybrid beats him/her on dps as well as be able to off heal / self heal there really is a problem. |
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Edited by Zeddycus on 11/23/12 8:05 PM (PST)
/shrug
I play my Mage because I find him fun. I play my Paladin also for the same reason. If you aren't having fun with a class then no one is forcing you to play it. |
But that's an issue with Hunters specifically, most pures are doing amazing damage right now (or at least they have specific specs that do amazing damage). If all pures were doing subpar damage then maybe this thread would be warranted, but it's almost exclusively a Hunter issue.
Your job is to bring damage, and you do. I honestly don't see the issue here. My job as Fury is to bring damage, which I do. Sure, I have some decent raid utility but the main reason I get brought to raids isn't my utility. Whether someone is a hybrid or a pure is almost never going to be the deciding factor in whether or not they get brought to a raid. The Hunter issue is just Hunters not performing as well as a lot of other classes, and that's an issue but that's not a pure vs hybrid issue. That's just a balancing issue. |
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Those two statements are not connected. Hunters are not being sat because they are hybrids (if we assume they are being sat). Hunters are being sat because they're low. |
If it wasn't for our Hunter having the ability to bring Spell Haste, when we lost our ranged DPS 3 times (because of their own personal issues), we would never have bothered with a Warlock (hell, we didn't even know Hunters could bring that for awhile, so we were only looking for SPriests and Boomkins)
Hunters cannot be sat for being a hybrid, because they're pure, not hybrid. |
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As was pointed out quite well earlier in this thread the larger problem is one of utility imbalance. Pure vs. Hybrid as it happens maps onto the low utility and high utility groups pretty well but it isn't really the issue. If pures had super awesome utility and hybrids did not the issue of utility imbalance would still be the same and equally problematic.
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No it doesn't. It legitimizes that people don't bring classes that do poor damage, which is entirely outside the pure/hybrid debate. It has nothing to do with hunters being a pure and everything to do with hunters being bad. We don't raid with bad hybrids either. |
Here's how a DPS chart should look: Stupid is stupid. While I cast Innervate/Tranquility or whatever else I am not casting Starfire/Wrath/etc. so my dps automatically will be lower. If we are able to do better than others it is either a design problem or a player problem. Both are quite possible in this day and age where development is awful and the playerbase is a bunch of whining little brats. |
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Oh of course here come the hybrid tears, I'll even settle for something like 100k/95k/90k difference, but at the end of the day there has to be something. That or just give every pure a healing/tanking spec.
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The problem can be solved by giving us some kind of raid cool downs.
Why are warriors getting raid wide banners? Why can a shadow priest do 2 types of hymns? Why do DPS shamans have raid DPS totems? Why do DPS druids have more utility than Batmans belt? If Fury/Arms, Shadow, Ele/Enh, Feral or Moonkin lost their raid cool downs they would be where pures are at right now. Blizzard is either not playing the same game we are or don't really care. |
