What's the point of being a pure nowadays?

90 Human Warlock
13830
Hybrids shouldn't be forced to respec to Heals or Tank if their DPS isn't up to par.
Pures shouldn't be forced to respec because their preferred spec isn't competitive.

Hybrids complain that respeccing requires different gear sets. Pures share this problem. Many pure specs have radically divergent stat weights for each of their specs, so simply swapping specs and reforging is not the answer. You need to completely re-gear your toon, which given the state of RNG in this game is likely to take months.

Pures don't necessarily enjoy every spec for their class. Many have a particular love for a certain spec (or deep-seated hated for another). It's unfair to say Pures "utility" should be the ability to DPS three different ways. Hybrids don't have to throw their playstyle out the window to bring utility, why should Pures be expected to?
Edited by Saitharis on 11/24/2012 1:01 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
The problem can be solved by giving us some kind of raid cool downs.

Why are warriors getting raid wide banners?
Why can a shadow priest do 2 types of hymns?
Why do DPS shamans have raid DPS totems?
Why do DPS druids have more utility than Batmans belt?

If Fury/Arms, Shadow, Ele/Enh, Feral or Moonkin lost their raid cool downs they would be where pures are at right now.

Blizzard is either not playing the same game we are or don't really care.


Exactly. I don't get why Hybrid suddenly means "allowed to give some form of utility".
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90 Pandaren Mage
8975
11/23/2012 10:08 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Do you expect all 3 of your specs to do the exact same DPS? More choices means that in the next patch they might buff Arcane Mages and you switch to Arcane Mage as the new flavor of the month best spec. It's happened a million times in the past.


No, I don't, though I DO expect them all to be within 3-5% of each other (though that will never happen based on how Blizzard balances stuff...) otherwise, it's not really a choice.

Oh, wow, 2% bonus to Arcane Charge. Yeah, that'll make it SO much more desirable.

Remember how they made Fire better in Firelands? Oh right, they did nothing. This is sort of the same thing.


2% bonus to Arcane Charge, per charge. This means that at 6 stacks, it's a 12% bonus. Consider that every 1% they buff Arcane Charge, it's a 6% buff at 6 stacks. With this in mind, they really can't afford to buff it immensely.

They didn't make fire better during Firelands, but they obviously did during 4.3. In fact, one of the good things about 4.3 was that Arcane and Fire were within your 3-5% dps of each other expectation.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
11/24/2012 02:40 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Exactly. I don't get why Hybrid suddenly means "allowed to give some form of utility".


What do you call Aspect of the Pack, Time Warp, Misdirection, Smoke Bomb, Cauterize, Remove Curse, Slow Fall, Spellsteal, Ice Trap, Tranq Shot, Tricks of the Trade, Shroud of Concealment, Dismantle, Soulstone, Ancient Hysteria, and Soulwell?
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90 Pandaren Mage
8975

This is a PvE thread. Your comment has no point here. I don't think "OMGNERF!" I think "wtf, where's MY raid cooldown?".

PS: If you say Time Warp, I will hurt you.


Time Warp is a legitimate answer, and it is our raid wide cooldown. The problem I'm seeing here is that you're complaint is "Why does X class have Y, and I don't!". Enough players have shared the complaint and the result is homogenization.

Rather than looking at what other people do or have, review yourself. Don't think of "what does a mage bring to a raid?", think "What do I bring to a raid?" A good player playing a pure DPS class is more likely to be brought to a raid than a bad player playing a hybrid DPS class.
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
11/24/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Faust
What do you call Aspect of the Pack, Time Warp, Misdirection, Smoke Bomb, Cauterize, Remove Curse, Slow Fall, Spellsteal, Ice Trap, Tranq Shot, Tricks of the Trade, Shroud of Concealment, Dismantle, Soulstone, Ancient Hysteria, and Soulwell?

Not particularly relevant. Lets be clear about what we're comparing here, every hybrid dps class has at least one raid wide defensive/healing cd and pures have a mess of basically situational utility that is rarely raid relevant and/or isn't exclusive. Certainly its important to have full buff coverage including BL and have your number of brezes but past a redundancy point, say 3 lusts and 5 brezes in a 25 man it isn't particularly relevant.

Other utility you have listed there is situational to the extreme, Shroud of Concealment? I doubt I'll ever use that in raid. Tranq Shot/Shiv? You mean the ability I use once per tier at most (Hi RNG Kings).

That said lets grant your above utility list for pures and lets compare with your (warrior) toolkit.

Warrior- Skull Banner, Demo Banner, RC.
Rogue- Tricks, Shiv, Shroud, Disarm, Smoke Bomb.

Can you really claim these two things are even close to comparable?

11/24/2012 07:47 AMPosted by Megeddon
Time Warp is a legitimate answer, and it is our raid wide cooldown. The problem I'm seeing here is that you're complaint is "Why does X class have Y, and I don't!". Enough players have shared the complaint and the result is homogenization.

The problem is Time Warp isn't exclusive or rare. The utility we're talking about from hybrids is major defensive/healing CDs. Sure Time Warp is nice if you are the only source but in many raid comps you won't be the only source and unlike most foms of hybrid utility having more lusts doesn't help your raid. Adding another Shaman for another stormlash and ancestral guidance/healing tide or another warrior for banners and RC and you still get a benefit. Adding a mage to a comp that already has a shaman doesn't save anything except potentially 1 GCD for the shaman.
Edited by Fierydemise on 11/24/2012 7:57 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
11020
Not particularly relevant. Lets be clear about what we're comparing here, every hybrid dps class has at least one raid wide defensive/healing cd and pures have a mess of basically situational utility that is rarely raid relevant and/or isn't exclusive. Certainly its important to have full buff coverage including BL and have your number of brezes but past a redundancy point, say 3 lusts and 5 brezes in a 25 man it isn't particularly relevant.

Other utility you have listed there is situational to the extreme, Shroud of Concealment? I doubt I'll ever use that in raid. Tranq Shot/Shiv? You mean the ability I use once per tier at most (Hi RNG Kings).

That said lets grant your above utility list for pures and lets compare with your (warrior) toolkit.

Warrior- Skull Banner, Demo Banner, RC.
Rogue- Tricks, Shiv, Shroud, Disarm.

Can you really claim these two things are even close to comparable?


Smoke Bomb can be an amazing raid wide cd in the right situation. ex. Garajal. Tricks is used in almost every fight in the game. As a prot warrior I'd say I've used disarm very regularly and the amount of damage it reduces is sizable so the same applies for dismantle. Shiv and Shroud are indeed situational but shiv at least can be lifesaving at the right time. You also have cloak and cheat death. Usually I wouldn't count personals as utility, but considering you can use them to cheese raid mechanics ex. Zon'ozz, Ultraxion I'd say they count situationally as does any personal that allows you to take lethal damage and live.

Edit: How can you call healthstones situational utility also? Probably one of the most lifesaving things in the game.

11/24/2012 07:52 AMPosted by Fierydemise
The problem is Time Warp isn't exclusive or rare


Nothing is these days, that's actually the point so nobody feels they need to bring X class.
Edited by Faust on 11/24/2012 8:05 AM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
Smoke Bomb can be an amazing raid wide cd in the right situation. ex. Garajal Tricks is used in almost every fight in the game. As a prot warrior I'd say I've used disarm very regularly and the amount of damage it reduces is sizable so the same applies for dismantle. Shiv and Shroud are indeed situational but shiv at least can be lifesaving at the right time. You also have cloak and cheat death. Usually I wouldn't count personals as utility, but considering you can use them to cheese raid mechanics ex. Zon'ozz, Ultraxion I'd say they count situationally as does an personal that allows you to take lethal damage and live.

Smoke Bomb is pretty awesome on the two fights this tier its useful on certainly.

Tricks is used every boss but rarely for utility, it is used as a dps button.

I can't remember the last time I disarmed a boss or needed to disarm an add on a boss fight. Sure its useful on trash but you rarely min-max raid comp for trash.

Shiv/Tranq Shot/Soothe is a one boss per tier ability and an ability that you really only need one of. You need it on RNG Kings but you really only need one person with it.

I can basically guarantee you will never see shroud used on a boss fight since it doesn't affect players in combat.

Defensive cds can be nice on soak fights and probably the biggest niche of pure specs but those aren't actually that common. Off the top of my head Will is pretty much the only fight that requires some very dedicated soakers. Elegon needs some soaking but the damage is enough that most classes can do it with a defensive cd but thats it. Again like smokebomb its nice to have but its not all that common either.

There is some ok utility there but compare it with a warrior or a shaman or just about any other hybrid it isn't much. If I am a raid leader and I have a choice between a warrior who brings two strong defensive cds for just about every fight vs. a rogue who brings a hyper situational defensive cd that applies on 2/16 boss fights and some nice defensive soaking cds which option is stronger?

11/24/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Faust
Nothing is these days, that's actually the point so nobody feels they need to bring X class.

Skull banner and stormlash certainly are. Rallying Cry is exclusive and unique so is AMZ. That said I think exclusive and unique is the wrong term, the better term is stackable. Add another warrior and you add to net raid utility, add a mage when you already have one or you already have a shaman adds much less to raid utility.
Edited by Fierydemise on 11/24/2012 9:28 AM PST
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100 Orc Warrior
12175
The problem can be solved by giving us some kind of raid cool downs.

Why are warriors getting raid wide banners?
Why can a shadow priest do 2 types of hymns?
Why do DPS shamans have raid DPS totems?
Why do DPS druids have more utility than Batmans belt?

If Fury/Arms, Shadow, Ele/Enh, Feral or Moonkin lost their raid cool downs they would be where pures are at right now.

Blizzard is either not playing the same game we are or don't really care.


The Warrior Banners thing is because we had virtually no raid utility in Cata. And yeah, Rallying Cry was decent for those really really heavy AoE phases, or if you happened to notice someone dipping precipitously low on health, but it was still fairly lackluster utility. The Banners gave us some kind of utility, even if Mocking Banner is almost the exact same as Challenging Shout, and Demoralizing Banner is only 10% damage reduction. Skull Banner is beast though, no doubts there. It's just unfortunate that they didn't take the time to add some raid utility to other classes.

Edit: For clarification, without the cooldowns that have been added to Warriors in MoP/Cata we were almost exactly where Pures were at in regards to utility. So it was a needed change but Blizzard probably should have looked at everyone, instead of targetting just a couple of classes/specs.
Edited by Nodokk on 11/24/2012 10:01 AM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
11/24/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Nodokk
Edit: For clarification, without the cooldowns that have been added to Warriors in MoP/Cata we were almost exactly where Pures were at in regards to utility. So it was a needed change but Blizzard probably should have looked at everyone, instead of targetting just a couple of classes/specs.

The better option would be saying, raid cds are exclusive to tanks and healers. Take them away from all dps specs.

This has a couple really nice features. First and foremost it prevents cd stacking, there is a hard cap on how many healers and tanks you will bring to an encounter. This allows balancing assumptions to be made about exactly how many raid cds a given raid will have.

The second advantage is balancing raid composition. One of the largest sources of imbalance currently is about the advantages you gain from dropping healers. Often these healers are supplemented by raid healing/defensive cds, if all dps specs lost their raid cds then it would be much easier to make assumptions while balancing raid encounters.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
The better option would be saying, raid cds are exclusive to tanks and healers. Take them away from all dps specs.

This has a couple really nice features. First and foremost it prevents cd stacking, there is a hard cap on how many healers and tanks you will bring to an encounter. This allows balancing assumptions to be made about exactly how many raid cds a given raid will have.

The second advantage is balancing raid composition. One of the largest sources of imbalance currently is about the advantages you gain from dropping healers. Often these healers are supplemented by raid healing/defensive cds, if all dps specs lost their raid cds then it would be much easier to make assumptions while balancing raid encounters.


I certainly agree with this. Fights today needs to be balanced around cd stacking which means that the AoE damage on some bosses is just incredible. As long as it doesn't become homogenized too far it would be beneficial.
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
11/22/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
I don't like dots. Blizzard apparently loves to give everyone dots to fool around with, and mages seem to be the least affected by this bizarre attachment.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mages the least affected by dotting playstyle?

LOLOLOLOL
This clearly shows you understand nothing about Fire Mages.

You're a Shaman, you should know that Elemental needs only 1 dot (Flame Shock), which isn't even your main nuke.

I keep reading BS everyday in this forum.
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90 Pandaren Mage
8975
11/22/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
I don't like dots. Blizzard apparently loves to give everyone dots to fool around with, and mages seem to be the least affected by this bizarre attachment.


Maybe as Arcane.

For Fire: Ignite, the spec's Mastery is a DoT. The major cooldown that makes the spec is Combustion, a DoT that deals damage based on the value of two other DoTs.

For Frost: Brain Freeze (Instant Frostfire Bolts) only proc's off of the Mage Bombs, which are DoTs.
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100 Troll Mage
17020
The biggest issue with this thread is the idea that there has to be a point to be a pure. You should pick the class you enjoy and be done with it.
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90 Night Elf Priest
3840
Well, the odds are in your favor that at least one of your DPS specs will be fun to play as a "Pure". Since I hate the way Shadow plays/feels now on my Priest, I am screwed in that department. Same problem on my Paladin, since I hate Retribution spec. Same problem on my Druid, since I hate both Balance and Feral spec.
Edited by Xanadu on 11/24/2012 6:44 PM PST
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100 Goblin Warlock
18350
11/24/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Faust
Exactly. I don't get why Hybrid suddenly means "allowed to give some form of utility".

What do you call Aspect of the Pack, Time Warp, Misdirection, Smoke Bomb, Cauterize, Remove Curse, Slow Fall, Spellsteal, Ice Trap, Tranq Shot, Tricks of the Trade, Shroud of Concealment, Dismantle, Soulstone, Ancient Hysteria, and Soulwell?


Half of those don't even work in raids which is the primary subject here.

What's the last boss you could disarm? Honestly I don't recall any boss ever except maybe in vanilla.

Out of those you listed:

AotP: Almost never used in raids other than to get to a spot sooner due to the daze component where priests have better abilities to speed a single target up(monks too I think).

Time Warp/Ancient Hysteria: Brought by a hybrid as well

Soul Stone: Brought by 2 hybrids

Cauterize/Ice Block: If you're counting that as raid utility then you can count the million similar SELF utility that hybrids have like bubble and dispersion.

Fact of the matter is soul well is MAYBE the only valid point you have for something that is unique that pures bring. I would include misdirection/TotT but you really don't even need to ever use those and many no longer do.
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100 Goblin Warlock
18350
11/24/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Xanadu
Well, the odds are in your favor that at least one of your DPS specs will be fun to play as a "Pure". Since I hate the way Shadow plays/feels now on my Priest, I am screwed in that department. Same problem on my Paladin, since I hate Retribution spec. Same problem on my Druid, since I hate both Balance and Feral spec.


Ummm except just because a spec is "fun" doesn't mean it's competitive which is what matters. As a shadow priest you're almost always guaranteed to be competitive.
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100 Troll Mage
17020
Ummm except just because a spec is "fun" doesn't mean it's competitive which is what matters. As a shadow priest you're almost always guaranteed to be competitive.


Actually since its a game the point is to have fun, the classes are not too bad for balance right now.
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100 Goblin Warlock
18350
11/24/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Hiroran
Ummm except just because a spec is "fun" doesn't mean it's competitive which is what matters. As a shadow priest you're almost always guaranteed to be competitive.


Actually since its a game the point is to have fun, the classes are not too bad for balance right now.


Fun is subjective so can't really say that.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/24/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Xanadu
Well, the odds are in your favor that at least one of your DPS specs will be fun to play as a "Pure"


Name me which one. I'd love to hear it.

Oh wait, you can't. The entire class is ruined by a line of talents.
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