What's the point of being a pure nowadays?

100 Troll Mage
16155
11/24/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Purebalance
Fun is subjective so can't really say that.


That doesn't disprove what I said though
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90 Human Warlock
13830
11/24/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Hiroran
Fun is subjective so can't really say that.


That doesn't disprove what I said though


The trouble is Blizzard changes up specs, classes, and balance on a regular basis. Just because you like the way the class functions NOW doesn't mean you will like it in the FUTURE.

Case in point: Mages. Most mages I've talked to hate the L90 talents with a passion because they negatively affect the way the entire CLASS plays and the only reason they stick with it is months/years of character investment. Saying 'just reroll' if you don't like the way the class plays right now is a copout.
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100 Troll Mage
16155
The trouble is Blizzard changes up specs, classes, and balance on a regular basis. Just because you like the way the class functions NOW doesn't mean you will like it in the FUTURE.

Case in point: Mages. Most mages I've talked to hate the L90 talents with a passion because they negatively affect the way the entire CLASS plays and the only reason they stick with it is months/years of character investment. Saying 'just reroll' if you don't like the way the class plays right now is a copout.


But none of that is relevant to a pure vs hybrid discussion as thats not pure or hybrid specific.

So once again that doesn't really prove what I said as being wrong.
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90 Worgen Druid
14435
11/24/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Well, the odds are in your favor that at least one of your DPS specs will be fun to play as a "Pure"


Name me which one. I'd love to hear it.

Oh wait, you can't. The entire class is ruined by a line of talents.


boy, you're never really going to stop with that are you? The mage lv90 talents are a small inconvenience at most. Must be so unfortunate to have to channel a 5 second evocate every 40
seconds to demolish the damage meters.

11/24/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Hiroran
The biggest issue with this thread is the idea that there has to be a point to be a pure. You should pick the class you enjoy and be done with it.


Seriously, this. I mained a hunter throughout all of cata and never once did I feel that "oh man if only I was a hybrid!"
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90 Human Priest
7585
11/24/2012 08:26 PMPosted by Saitharis
Case in point: Mages. Most mages I've talked to hate the L90 talents with a passion because they negatively affect the way the entire CLASS plays and the only reason they stick with it is months/years of character investment. Saying 'just reroll' if you don't like the way the class plays right now is a copout.


And yet the mage class is still the most represented in the dps role in raids. Obviously their utter lack of utility (lol cuz having BL+5%crit+spellpower+CC+spellsteal+remove curse+counterspell, etc. means having no utility) and inability to role change as needed (you know, the whole definition of the hybrid vs pure debate alluded to in the thread title) is wrecking mage representation in raiding.

Should mage 90 talents be looked at/fixed? I don't know, my mage is only 86 or 87. Maybe they are bad/unfun/whatever however, that is purely a mage class issue. Hunter dps being bad is a hunter class issue. Rogue play being boring with too much damage coming from passives is a rogue class issue. None of those have anything to do with the hybrid/pure debate alluded to in the OP.

Having played games where all classes are hybrids I would say, using my experience so yes anecdotal is anecdotal, the following: In general people that are willing to tank/heal will do so but most players, even with the potential advantages those roles provide, would rather not and so don't even if it is an available option. In WoW terms, most people that play pures would still only dps even if the pures were changed into hybrids because that's all they want to do. Some hybrid players only want to dps as well but have hybrids because no pure class has the character archtype they enjoy (berserker with big axe-must roll a warrior/dk for example).

The point of being a pure, as it always has been, is to bring the heat. The fact that the 4 pure dps classes all have above average representation in the dps role in current content despite the issues several of them have would seem to indicate that this is still working as intended.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
boy, you're never really going to stop with that are you? The mage lv90 talents are a small inconvenience at most. Must be so unfortunate to have to channel a 5 second evocate every 40
seconds to demolish the damage meters.


Try using Astral Communion 1.5 times every 40 seconds and see how fun it is.

As long as you argue with me on fun stuff, I'll keep telling you that, but feel free to post in the thread that actually discusses the L90 talents if you really wish to keep arguing a point you're not going to win.

11/24/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Prunefgt
Seriously, this. I mained a hunter throughout all of cata and never once did I feel that "oh man if only I was a hybrid!"


Oh gee, maybe because Cata didn't mean crap. You barely needed additional raid-wide cooldowns on those fights whereas every one you have in today's raiding is exceedingly helpful.

11/24/2012 09:18 PMPosted by Ellilaine
And yet the mage class is still the most represented in the dps role in raids.


Because our damage is so good.

Just because we're well represented doesn't mean we enjoy the playstyle. If I didn't even have good damage, I'd have quit on week one.

11/24/2012 09:18 PMPosted by Ellilaine
(lol cuz having BL+5%crit+spellpower+CC+spellsteal+remove curse+counterspell, etc. means having no utility)


Hunters and Shamans have BL. Shamans and Warlocks have SP. Lol CC, really? What can I really spellsteal in raids? LOL THERE ARE NO CURSES IN TIER 14! Because another interrupt on a superlong cooldown is so helpful. Crit, you got me there. Only Hunters and Ferals/Guardians bring that.

Should mage 90 talents be looked at/fixed? I don't know, my mage is only 86 or 87. Maybe they are bad/unfun/whatever however, that is purely a mage class issue.


When people bring my damage into question, I have to tell them its because of a bs mechanic we have. If people drop the subject of damage, I drop the subject of why.

The point of being a pure, as it always has been, is to bring the heat. The fact that the 4 pure dps classes all have above average representation in the dps role in current content despite the issues several of them have would seem to indicate that this is still working as intended.


Again, purely because of damage (with the exception of Hunter). Hybrid casters Boomkins and Elemental Shamans are well below SPriests and pure casters (Mages and Warlocks). Had all of our DPS been equal on a single-target fight, that number would dwindle because you can either have: A damage dealer that doesn't bring rare buffs and cooldowns, or a damage dealer that does bring rare buffs and cooldowns.

See the difference? Once Blizzard finally understands how to balance classes after 8 years of failing so hard at doing so, pures will start disappearing rapidly.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/24/2012 9:35 PM PST
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100 Troll Mage
16155
11/24/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
See the difference? Once Blizzard finally understands how to balance classes after 8 years of failing so hard at doing so, pures will start disappearing rapidly.


False they *may* start disappearing rapidly. You don't know the future. People do not think logically so you can not say that it will definitively happen. Until proof as been shown that pures are being played less, the argument doesn't have much to stand on.
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90 Human Warlock
13830
The trouble is Blizzard changes up specs, classes, and balance on a regular basis. Just because you like the way the class functions NOW doesn't mean you will like it in the FUTURE.

Case in point: Mages. Most mages I've talked to hate the L90 talents with a passion because they negatively affect the way the entire CLASS plays and the only reason they stick with it is months/years of character investment. Saying 'just reroll' if you don't like the way the class plays right now is a copout.


But none of that is relevant to a pure vs hybrid discussion as thats not pure or hybrid specific.

So once again that doesn't really prove what I said as being wrong.


It isn't pure or hybrid specific in the strictest sense, but hybrids have a statistically higher chance of having all their specs in use on a competitive level. Pures are lucky if they have one spec that they can take to raid.

You're so hung up on the thread title you're ignoring the actual issues being discussed in this thread, which are not that there is no 'point' to being a pure, but that hybrids provide more tangible benefits in a raiding environment compared to pures. Almost without exception their talent trees have more raid-friendly abilities to choose from; more than half my talents are useless, selfish or PvP oriented. Shadowfury is the only talent that has an impact beyond my personal performance.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
See the difference? Once Blizzard finally understands how to balance classes after 8 years of failing so hard at doing so, pures will start disappearing rapidly.


False they *may* start disappearing rapidly. You don't know the future. People do not think logically so you can not say that it will definitively happen. Until proof as been shown that pures are being played less, the argument doesn't have much to stand on.


You can't honestly say that Mages are so well represented because of their gameplay or fun levels (specifically referring to the awful, AWFUL tier of talents that NO ONE [but Lhivera] enjoys). It's for their damage and cleaving. If we were on the same level as everyone else, but didn't have the cooldowns of hybrids, what would be the incentive to play a Mage then?
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/25/2012 3:00 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Personally I don't like playing a pure, as I hate playing as dps in pve. To me it just doesn't feel like im doing much for the group, I don't like waiting 30 minutes to have a dps race and be at the mercy of a potentially bad tank.

Though I would like to level my hunter to 90 if they weren't such a broken class, MM needs to be looked at.

Rogues are hard to get into for me, it's just something about them, idk.

Mages...well first off I hate the playstyle, I also somewhat resent them to the point where I won't give the class a try(from a pvp perspective).

I may yet level a lock to 90 now that it seems they have been made fun again.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/25/2012 03:11 AMPosted by Thaedras
I also somewhat resent them to the point where I won't give the class a try(from a pvp perspective).


Which is hilarious.

Know Thy Enemy holds SO true in WoW. If I didn't have every class at 85 back during Cata, I would have sucked a lot harder in PvP because I didn't know their counters.

If you want to know your enemy, you have to become your enemy.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Here's how a DPS chart should look:

Mage/Warlock/Rogue/Hunter 100k
Warrior/Death Knight/Shaman/Priest 90k
Druid/Paladin/Monk 80k

Damage goes down, utility goes up, really simple concept.

I really feel the need to comment on this, Paladin utility is terrible, it's been dubbed down to the point of almost non existence now were those hand of freedom guys...
Disregarding offheals that is, which don't matter much in pve anyway.
That said, this is pretty inaccurate.

Though I wish this were true, more utility please, I want my auras back!
Edited by Thaedras on 11/25/2012 3:37 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
11/25/2012 03:26 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
I also somewhat resent them to the point where I won't give the class a try(from a pvp perspective).


Which is hilarious.

Know Thy Enemy holds SO true in WoW. If I didn't have every class at 85 back during Cata, I would have sucked a lot harder in PvP because I didn't know their counters.

If you want to know your enemy, you have to become your enemy.

I know, I completely agree.
I've told myself the same thing, I just can't really get into them. But that may just be due to me not being partial to dps.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
I really feel the need to comment on this, Paladin utility is terrible, it's been dubbed down to the point of almost non existence now were those hand of freedom guys...
Disregarding offheals that is, which don't matter much in pve anyway.
That said, this is pretty inaccurate.

Though I wish this were true, more utility please, I want my auras back!


Oh I agree, though it's still 100000x better than Mages' group utility. You've got selfless healer and devotion aura, as well as Hand of Protection, Purity, and Freedom, all of which are helpful (have you SEEN Freedom on Stone Guards? Hell, I'm the guy to pop the mines and I ask for it all the time)

Melee utility is a bit lesser than ranged utility, but you still have utility nonetheless (though they should buff Devotion Aura to be 20% damage reduction, and not JUST magic damage because Devo Aura is near USELESS in Heart of Fear)

I know, I completely agree.
I've told myself the same thing, I just can't really get into them. But that may just be due to me not being partial to dps.


Eh. To each their own, but I'm telling you, you'll get a massive advantage to playing one.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I really feel the need to comment on this, Paladin utility is terrible, it's been dubbed down to the point of almost non existence now were those hand of freedom guys...
Disregarding offheals that is, which don't matter much in pve anyway.
That said, this is pretty inaccurate.

Though I wish this were true, more utility please, I want my auras back!


Oh I agree, though it's still 100000x better than Mages' group utility. You've got selfless healer and devotion aura, as well as Hand of Protection, Purity, and Freedom, all of which are helpful (have you SEEN Freedom on Stone Guards? Hell, I'm the guy to pop the mines and I ask for it all the time)

Melee utility is a bit lesser than ranged utility, but you still have utility nonetheless (though they should buff Devotion Aura to be 20% damage reduction, and not JUST magic damage because Devo Aura is near USELESS in Heart of Fear)

I know, I completely agree.
I've told myself the same thing, I just can't really get into them. But that may just be due to me not being partial to dps.


Eh. To each their own, but I'm telling you, you'll get a massive advantage to playing one.

Yeah, I guess it would be smarter to roll a mage than have two paladins and complain about ret being bad. Who knows, I may yet play one and tbh fire looks pretty interesting, I guess I can't judge the playstyle until max level.
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90 Troll Shaman
14215
i may as well be a pure since i only play damage dealing roles (roles which often suffer thanks to the healing role: thanks resto pvp)

ive played the roller coaster of nerfs and buffs and lasted in this class 7+ years.

and why is that? i like the playstyle. i dont plauy y for 'what can i get out of this' or complain when heals/tanks get a benefit somewhere that i, as a dps, do not.

i deal with it when my dps specs are bottom of the barrel, even though i dopnt have another option that performs the same role far better(which is a benefit all pures have, one of their dps specs will always be good, in some cases (coughmagescough) all 3 will be performing spectacularly.)

i play because i love being a totemtossing lightning bolting master of the elements with the best looking tier/gear sets in the game.

dont let yourself forget the overal goal: fun.
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90 Pandaren Mage
8975
11/25/2012 02:59 AMPosted by Pewpewblast


False they *may* start disappearing rapidly. You don't know the future. People do not think logically so you can not say that it will definitively happen. Until proof as been shown that pures are being played less, the argument doesn't have much to stand on.


You can't honestly say that Mages are so well represented because of their gameplay or fun levels (specifically referring to the awful, AWFUL tier of talents that NO ONE [but Lhivera] enjoys). It's for their damage and cleaving. If we were on the same level as everyone else, but didn't have the cooldowns of hybrids, what would be the incentive to play a Mage then?


Fun is subjective. No matter how strongly you feel about mage talents, and no matter how many threads you see or mages you talk to, it really is subjective. You might talk to 100 mages that absolutely abhor the level 90 talents, but you cannot be certain that there aren't 200 other mages out there that are in love with the mechanics. To use this as an argument for or against any claim is pointless.

Damage and cleaving are two aspects of Mage gameplay, which by your argument both says that is the reason they are well represented, and why we honestly can't say they're well represented (o_o?)

At any rate, the best answer you're going to find to your original question, the title of this thread, is somewhat complex and completely individualized. Every player who plays a pure class picked to do so for a reason of their own. Maybe it's the gameplay, FOTM, lore, fulfilling a raid role, etc.. Not every player will give you the same answer, and you might play your mage for a different reason than I play mine. Either way, at one point in time, you had a reason for playing a Mage instead of a Priest, Shaman, or Druid. What is the reason, and if that reason is no longer valid, why isn't it?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
What i detest most about 'pure' dps is the inability to cut short a 30 minutes queue time.
True story.
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90 Pandaren Mage
8975
11/24/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Purebalance
Well, the odds are in your favor that at least one of your DPS specs will be fun to play as a "Pure". Since I hate the way Shadow plays/feels now on my Priest, I am screwed in that department. Same problem on my Paladin, since I hate Retribution spec. Same problem on my Druid, since I hate both Balance and Feral spec.


Ummm except just because a spec is "fun" doesn't mean it's competitive which is what matters. As a shadow priest you're almost always guaranteed to be competitive.


Being competitive is what matters to you. To others, having fun is what matters. Why pay monthly if you're not having fun?

Also, as a shadow priest, you aren't guaranteed to be competitive. The situation actually ends up being worse for them, and other hybrid class players who have no desire to fill a role that their class is capable off. Example: Not every Priest wants to heal. Maybe all a Paladin wants to do is DPS. If their DPS spec isn't up to par, they're in quite the bind if all that matters to them is the competitiveness of their spec. As a pure, if Arcane isn't competitive, oh well. I can play Fire.
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90 Pandaren Mage
8975
What i detest most about 'pure' dps is the inability to cut short a 30 minutes queue time.
True story.


That's really not a "pure" issue. Assuming that everyone is using the Looking for Group tool properly and not say, selecting to fulfill the role of a tank who is actually going to DPS, it's just supply/demand. There are many more DPS players using the tool, and thus the DPS queue is longer.

Having the ability to queue for a role they have no intention of performing should not be seen as an advantage for hybrids.
Edited by Megeddon on 11/25/2012 7:12 AM PST
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