PVP is a horrible, unfun mess right now

96 Human Paladin
21385
Sorry for the abrasive title, but I really do feel that PVP is just awful right now. There's three main problems:

1. Too much CC (especially instant CC)
There's too many different kinds of CC and it all lasts way too long. PVP is not fun when you can't control your actions for more than half of a fight. Abilities that take away control should be powerful, but not plentiful.
Shockwave and (Blood) Fear are certainly the two biggest culprits, but there's also Fist of Justice, cat Cyclone, Typhoon, Deep Freeze, Disorienting Roar, and Intimidating Shout, to name just a few. They're all fine abilities in a vacuum but when you consider the impact of chaining them together and how short their cooldowns are then it just makes PVP a very frustrating experience. The game needs less focus on taking player control away because it leads to...

2. Too much burst, both damage and healing.
It's not fun to get a healer (most notably, a Shaman) down to 10% health only to see them instantly crit heal up to 90%. It's also not fun to watch somebody take 80% of their health in a single Deep Freeze or die from 60% health to a 5stack of Taste For Blood.

The reason healing has to be bursty is because CC is so plentiful and lasts so long. If a healer only has 1-2 seconds to react to spike damage before they get hit with another interrupt, silence, stun, fear, etc. then that heal has to be strong. However, if we tone down CC then we can smooth out healing since healers will have more time to deal with incoming damage. Damage has to be bursty right now because healing is bursty because CC is so plentiful - it's a horrible snowball effect.

Most classes have several cooldowns that they all stack ontop of each other to maximize burst because getting a kill otherwise is nearly impossible. The "swifty one-shot macro" is so popular because there is no downside to stacking all cooldowns on top of each other. Outside of these cooldowns damage is pathetic so the game is encouraging you to stack them.
DPS doesn't need 2-4 burst cooldowns. Remove spells like Holy Avenger and make Sanctified Wrath a 2minute cooldown - this makes burst windows available more often but less threatening each time. Sitting around for 3 minutes to try and set up another kill is boring.

Once you tone down the ridiculous amount of control that everyone has then you can make healing less bursty, which in turn means that damage can be smoothed out, and people can actually survive without being at 100% health all the time.

3. Too many defensive abilities.
Because damage is so spikey and healers get precious little time to actually cast, everyone needs some defensive skills. Unfortunately, we have an oversaturation of them right now, especially when you also look at using CC defensively and hybrid healing. If you make CC less plentiful, you can tone down burst healing from healers, which means dps won't need so many defensive cooldowns.

Nothing can change unless you tone down control of every class. Hammer of Justice used to be a powerful ability but it just doesn't hold a candle to all the new control options in the game. I don't want to play in a world (of warcraft) where Fist of Justice is a mediocre stun.
Edited by Tonìc on 11/24/2012 11:20 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
Yeah, I don't really see why they think this kind of gameplay is fun.

I think if they're going to give so much utility in talents (for some classes anyways, trololol) then they need to think about reducing baseline mechanics significantly.

There has to be a happy medium between burst and longevity for those two different playstyles, and healers should have to actually worry about mana.

Frost is a really good example of everything wrong: too easy to do huge damage, too easy to do instant cc.
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90 Human Paladin
13525
CC, CC, and more CC. CC needs a nerf or we need more options to reduce it for ourselves. I'd like to see them giving dps specs a way to trade offence for CC reduction - i.e. for ret an "escape into the light" that used holy power (CC effect reduced by 20% for each holy power spent, etc), and something similar for each dps spec (warriors can use rage to "break chains", warlocks can "make a deal with the devil" using an ember, etc.) .

By the way, my little sister's middle name is CC. True story: my dad lost a case of Canadian Club whiskey betting she'd be a boy, so he named her after it. We're a classy family.
Edited by Carmageddon on 11/25/2012 1:57 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
18100
Frost is a really good example of everything wrong: too easy to do huge damage, too easy to do instant cc.


Frost always had good CC. It had good CC since ... vanilla. That was the point of the class/spec.

Damage on the other hand, Frost used to to need to cast ...


http://i.imgur.com/iwZom.jpg

At least the one second frost bomb cast of set up had to be cast in my most recent 100% -> 0% in two GCD's.
Edited by Kallìk on 11/25/2012 1:58 AM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
The reason healing has to be bursty is because CC is so plentiful and lasts so long. If a healer only has 1-2 seconds to react to spike damage before they get hit with another interrupt, silence, stun, fear, etc. then that heal has to be strong.


This isn't why healing is Bursty the fact that you think so is... I onno ... Retarded?

Heals are made to Heal Raid Bosses.... once you wake up and realize this game is balanced around PVE you'll understand that a Healer that is meant to heal 10-25 ppl in a Raid are using those same skills to heal in a PVP match. 2 healers are supposed to account for the health pool of about 8 ppl in WoW. The amount a player heals in pvp is actually slightly less than they do in PVE. Also Stuns and Silence and all that Jazz was added TO DEAL WITH HEALERS. They ARE the reason all that MESS exists on every single spec of the game (except Shaman) IT's that way cause realistically.. Blizzard never felt like scaling heals differently to balance out PVP, they rather had given players other Options to kill healers.

11/24/2012 11:19 PMPosted by Tonìc
Most classes have several cooldowns that they all stack ontop of each other to maximize burst because getting a kill otherwise is nearly impossible


I'm pretty sure the devs didn't make all the Cd's like that so ppl can one shot, but to give a considerable boost in Damage to finish someone off otherwise a Healer, as you said , will simply heal someone from the last scraps of their life to full in a single click on a panel.

You have the option of stacking all CD's from the get go and trying to kill someone, however... sometimes ppl are smart and avoid all that damage or have a healer to heal straight thru it. Once u do that you render yourself usless.. Not all DPS in this game play mindlessly and runs up and burst all Cd's from the get go.

Last but not least this again is another PVE thing that effects PVP, esp. when it concerns melee who have to constantly bounce in and out of range in between multiple targets just to keep up with ranged. As u can tell most ranged classes

because damage is so spikey and healers get precious little time to actually cast


This is not the Reason for Defensive Cd's at all. Defensive Cd's were primarily only for melee and tank specs... However If you weren't one of these lucky hybrid specs u had the pleasure of being out right killed before u could do anything. Defensives Cd's give you the chance to u know.. do something besides being a target dummy?
Look at ele shaman... How often can they cast anything before getting pwned, silence, stunned, disoriented, slowed, suffer pushback, interrupted... It's simple u can't...
Also you don't have to pretend like anything besides casters got defensive Cd's added to them cause melee always had defensive Cd's or things that procced at low HP to help them stay alive to receive a heal. (i.e. cheat death)

11/25/2012 01:56 AMPosted by Carmageddon
CC, CC, and more CC


They exist cause a healer with NO CD's will heal ur HP from 60% to 100% in a single cast, Just like it will take 2-4 cd's and 2-4 GCDs to take someone from 60% to 0.

11/24/2012 11:19 PMPosted by Tonìc
It's also not fun to watch somebody take 80% of their health in a single Deep Freeze or die from 60% health to a 5stack of Taste For Blood.


It's Not Fun being Stuck in 45~60 Mins cause neither sides can finish a person off either. I been there and done that I prefer there to be a winner or loser, not for fights to last a life time. If you ask me I'd remove meditation from Arena too so healers run out of mana.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/25/2012 5:38 AM PST
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1 Orc Warrior
0
We get this typical topic every patch / expansion, nothing new.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7735
11/25/2012 05:34 AMPosted by Nagomalda
Heals are made to Heal Raid Bosses.... once you wake up and realize this game is balanced around PVE you'll understand that a Healer that is meant to heal 10-25 ppl in a Raid are using those same skills to heal in a PVP match


I thought healing was nerfed in the BGs.

Either way, OP was uprated. Once again I think they should make PVP talents, the joint talents are screwing the game up.
Edited by Thundahstahm on 11/25/2012 7:50 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
7735
11/25/2012 01:56 AMPosted by Carmageddon
By the way, my little sister's middle name is CC. True story: my dad lost a case of Canadian Club whiskey betting she'd be a boy, so he named her after it. We're a classy family.


This is the best thing I've read on the forums in a long time.

Uprated.
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96 Human Paladin
21385
Another thing that needs to be looked at is capping the amount of healers on a random BG team. It's just absurd that a team can have 6 healers on Gilneas, Twin Peaks, or WSG.
Edited by Tonìc on 11/26/2012 1:23 AM PST
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90 Draenei Hunter
15360
I've already unsubbed. This game is not fun in its current state, I hate what they're forcing players to do with PvP gear (keep grinding that conquest gear to "upgrade" gear), and also right now its kill or be killed type of mentality in PvP.

Use CDs, go full mongo, and kill. Or you are dead.

I was capping out last night in 2s, and the number of times when my warrior partner died in an opening burst from a mage/shadow priest team is unreal. I just dont even like what they are doing anymore.
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90 Orc Warrior
14005
Figure I link back to a post I made with some similar themes as this thread.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7005437351#1

What we can all agree on is that the crowd control in all its forms is not fun. Disheartened to see some blues reply on MMO champ who have no desire to address basically what is pvp in this game. Needs to be simpler, better, and enjoyable.

In my post TLDR as follows;

  • Break down CC to major (sheep, fear) and minor crowd control (snares, stuns).
  • Major CC can only occur once every 30 seconds.
  • Human trinket racial is baseline for all races (Give humans back perception).
  • PvP has 3 major roles Tunneler, Kiter, Juke.
  • The warrior chases the mage and through that eternal clash of roles there is pvp Vengeance buff to had. Its a resource to be earned from the conflict.
  • The Vengeance buff is sort of a tug of war, imagine balance druid eclipse meter that goes back and forth. Whoever earns the resource from this clash gets a bonus attack power, reduction on abilities on cooldown, whatever.
    Edited by Nicest on 11/26/2012 2:08 AM PST
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