Exaggerated Complaints: 5.1 Breakdown (PvP)

90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
Posted from the patch notes. My observations below each one.

•The durations of all disarm effects have been reduced to 8 seconds.
--Doesn't really affect us much.

Death Knight (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Damage received from players (or player-controlled sources) no longer counts towards increasing the healing done by Death Strike.
This is good for us. No more seeing those exaggerated heals when we use burst cooldowns on DKs.

Hunter (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Careful Aim now increases the critical strike chance of Steady Shot and Aimed Shot by 75% on targets who are above 80% health, down from 90%.
I read this wrong the first time around. So they basically still get the guaranteed crit except its now for 10% more health. That is annoying indeed, though I suppose it's offset a bit with their BW being able to get cc'd.

•Lynx Rush has been changed. Lynx Rush is now a bleed effect that causes damage every 3 seconds over a period of 15 seconds, and stacks up to 9 times.
This is GOOD. No more Killing Spree for hunter pets when they isolate us.

•Bestial Wrath no longer grants Hunter pets immunity to crowd control effects, and instead now breaks existing crowd control effects when activated.
This is even better. We can snare/stun/gouge BW'd Stampede. Not to mention if you play with an AoE fear class, this definitely helps subdue that insane damage

•Glyphs

•A new Major Glyph has been added: Glyph of Aimed Shot. This glyph allows Aimed Shot to be used while moving.
This could potentially suck.

Mage (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Ring of Frost now has a 45 second cooldown, up from 30 seconds, and can no longer affect more than 10 targets.
This is good. Those 15 extra seconds will mean the difference when we're a few seconds short of Cloak of Shadows, Trinket, Vanish, Shadowstep, etc. I know that previous to this I would be in that 15 second range to get a cooldown back when I'd get ringed and ...well, that's all she wrote.

•The duration of Deep Freeze has been reduced to 4 seconds.
This is also a benefit for us... their stun durations are shortened (along with an increased cooldown to Ring of Frost) and now mages are not quite as strong with crowd control as they have been, though good mages will always be the CC masters.

•Frost Bomb will now detonate after 6 seconds, up from 5 seconds). Detonation speed is still affected by haste.
Paired with the above changes, this helps. Frost Bomb takes longer to go off while Deep Freeze wears out faster. They will have to actually time their shatter combos now instead of having it pretty much guaranteed with frost bomb-deep freeze instantly. This will tone down their burst and in the end, that's always a benefit for us.

•The damage absorbed by Ice Barrier has been reduced by 25%.
Yet another benefit for us. The faster barrier breaks, the faster we can start to damage the mage. With our wounding poison damage bonus, and the toned down stun durations (we all know seconds matter in PvP) this is a benefit for us. It won't seem like we're just poking at a bubble for what seems like an eternity before starting to see damage numbers.

Monk (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

I don't have much to say about their changes because, quite honestly, I barely ever see Monks in PvP... and when I do I simply have no freakin idea what they're donig, heh.

Priest (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Psyfiend Psychic Terror cast time has been increased to 2 seconds, up from 1.5 seconds.

•The Psyfiend health has been reduced to 10% of the controlling Priest's health, down from 30%.
I personaly like these two changes. I hate that Psyfiend. I hate it with all that I have to hate.

Rogue (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•The energy cost of Kick has been reduced to 10 (was 15).
Minutely addresses energy starving issues. It's tiny, but it does help.

•Seal Fate will now only be activated by melee combo point generating abilities.
Straight nerf to Shuriken. Sucks, but it's not terrible. It's still a good option for CombatPvP rogues to set up a redirect 8 second kidney shot

•Shuriken Toss now deals double damage when used against targets further than 10 yards away.
Don't underestimate Shuriken Toss. This is actually really nice.

•The cooldown of Blind has been reduced to 90 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
Big PvP buff. I think we all agree on this one. Blind back up before trinkets are back up. That's big.

•The energy cost of the Burst of Speed talent has been reduced to 50 energy, down from 60 energy.
Meh. Maybe as Haste escalates as we upgrade our gear, this will eventually mean something. But I doubt it

•Wound Poison now deals 33% more damage.
Our go-to poison gets a nice damage buff. Assassination Rogues benefit the most out of this, though all rogues can appreciate it when paired with some of the other class changes.

Warlock (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Rain of Fire no longer causes a stun after hitting a target three times.
This is good. Less stuns by other classes always makes us look better.

•Rain of Fire damage over time will now hit every 1 second, down from 2 seconds. The damage animation for the damage over time effect will no longer always display.
This one sucks. AoE spam is annoying and I believe Blizzard will make some changes to stealth in the future to help us out a bit with this.

•Removed the ranged Melee attack from Demonology Warlocks in Metamorphosis form, and increased the damage of Doom by 25% to compensate.
This is nice. We all hate that spam.

Warrior (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Avatar no longer grants immunity to movement impairing effects, and instead now instantly breaks movement impairing effects. This ability also no longer generates addiitonal Rage while active. Its duration has increased to 24 seconds (was 20 seconds).
Big buff for us (and all classes really). Huge, actually. A warrior breaks out of a CC with Avatar, fine... we can hold them down still. Over and over and over, warriors just pop Avatar as soon as a rogue opens on them and they are basically free to attack whoever they want, completely ignoring us for the duration. No longer. Pop avatar out of a snare or stun and they will be vulnerable to our CC. The rage change helps as well as they can't just keep spamming damage.

•The cooldown of Intimidating Shout has increased to 90 seconds, up from 60 seconds.
Their fear and our blind on the same CD? Perfect. When overlapped with their nerfed Avatar, this can and will go a long way in keeping us in the fight.

•The Silence provided by Glyph of Gag Order is no longer effective against players.
Big inderect buff here as well. Warriors no longer have blanket silence, on top of CC immunity while getting free rage... It makes us that much better as a PvP teammate with our garrote/kick/90 second blind/stuns to deal with casters.

---

So there you have it. The silver lining in a patch that so many of you are tossing aside as a worthless patch.

There are quite a few good things to look forward to... and I for one am excited to be more effective in PvP.
Edited by Revaks on 11/27/2012 10:48 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6040
You never know, now that they slightly toned down the deviants we might have more of a fighting chance as a rogue. I am trying to stay optimistic, plus this week I should have enough sigils to get the legendary gem and be able to upgrade [item="Claws of Shek'zeer" /] to 492 ilvl so im hoping that weapon will make a difference in pvp.
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90 Human Rogue
5770
•Careful Aim now increases the critical strike chance of Steady Shot and Aimed Shot by 75% on targets who are above 80% health, down from 90%.
This is good. Reduces crazy hunter burst... I know I'll be thankful to not take a massive crit in the face pretty much guaranteed from a hunter when I start a fight.


Uhm.. So basically they have a higher crit chance if you're above 80%, instead of above 90%.. Thats 10% more hp before their crit chance goes away. How is this good? If anything it guarantees a crit on you.

•Frost Bomb will now detonate after 6 seconds, up from 5 seconds). Detonation speed is still affected by haste.
Paired with the above changes, this helps. Frost Bomb takes longer to go off while Deep Freeze wears out faster. They will have to actually time their shatter combos now instead of having it pretty much guaranteed with frost bomb-deep freeze instantly. This will tone down their burst and in the end, that's always a benefit for us.


This was not a problem, the problem is glyph of fire blast which instantly detonates frost bomb.

•Wound Poison now deals 33% more damage.
Our go-to poison gets a nice damage buff. Assassination Rogues benefit the most out of this, though all rogues can appreciate it when paired with some of the other class changes.


Did the numbers, Deadly poison still wins out in damage for all specs, I can see this as a buff for sub and combat PvP where you use wound in place of deadly but i still see deadly winning out for Assassin rogues.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
11/27/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Sariel
Uhm.. So basically they have a higher crit chance if you're above 80%, instead of above 90%.. Thats 10% more hp before their crit chance goes away. How is this good? If anything it guarantees a crit on you


No you read that wrong.

The old bonus was 90% crit chance on someone at 80% health or higher.

Now it'll be 75% crit chance on someone at 80% health or higher.

11/27/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Sariel
Did the numbers, Deadly poison still wins out in damage for all specs, I can see this as a buff for sub and combat PvP where you use wound in place of deadly but i still see deadly winning out for Assassin rogues.


Yes, Deadly for overall damage is better, however the offset on damage is narrower now after the 33% increase to wound poison... so for PvP, it'll be the poison of choice with little to no debate (short of you playing with other MS classes)
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57 Dwarf Shaman
11155


Hunter (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Careful Aim now increases the critical strike chance of Steady Shot and Aimed Shot by 75% on targets who are above 80% health, down from 90%.
This is good. Reduces crazy hunter burst... I know I'll be thankful to not take a massive crit in the face pretty much guaranteed from a hunter when I start a fight.



Can you read?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040


Hunter (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

•Careful Aim now increases the critical strike chance of Steady Shot and Aimed Shot by 75% on targets who are above 80% health, down from 90%.
This is good. Reduces crazy hunter burst... I know I'll be thankful to not take a massive crit in the face pretty much guaranteed from a hunter when I start a fight.



Can you read?


Guess not!

So it's 80% health instead of 90% health?

Not 75% crit instead of 90%?

Gah. My mistake!
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Can you read?


Guess not!

So it's 80% health instead of 90% health?

Not 75% crit instead of 90%?

Gah. My mistake!


Not your fault it is worded fairly wonky and can be taken either way.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
So, how's it been so far?

I'm logging on today hopefully, but from what I read and hear... things are much better for rogues.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8555
So, how's it been so far?

I'm logging on today hopefully, but from what I read and hear... things are much better for rogues.


Not really....nothing much has changed.

A few things we got were nice...but the major issues were not addressed.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6040
11/28/2012 05:53 AMPosted by Revaks
I'm logging on today hopefully, but from what I read and hear... things are much better for rogues


Awful. I did a few BGs last night just to see whats going on. Mages everywhere, burst is even worse then it was B4 5.1 , yea shuirken toss does more damage, but honestly it feels lame. With the xtra 2k pvp power on weapons casters are obliterating everything. Have fun being the focus target the second you leave stealth.
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90 Undead Rogue
9925
hotfix, vanish cd is now 2 mins down from 3mins
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
2230
I'm enjoying it, its now totally viable to blind -> vanish -> sap someone in arenas. I still feel squishy but I think I'm doing some stuff wrong. Mobility is still tough, but I have yet to try BoS. I tried it before at 60 energy and it was REALLY nice against mages and shamans. I'm thinking now I'll just carry a bunch of tomes to swap between ss and BoS depending on comp =D
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
So, how's it been so far?

I'm logging on today hopefully, but from what I read and hear... things are much better for rogues.


Not really....nothing much has changed.

A few things we got were nice...but the major issues were not addressed.


What's your point of reference? I don't see any PvP activity on your profile... and self buffs were light, but overall changes did make things a little more tolerable for us. A lot of people were getting their Conq weapons this week, so yes I expect damage to be a lot more bursty in PvP all around. But from what I hear and read, other rogues are having a much better all around experience in PvP.

11/28/2012 07:19 AMPosted by Failrogue
Awful. I did a few BGs last night just to see whats going on. Mages everywhere, burst is even worse then it was B4 5.1 , yea shuirken toss does more damage, but honestly it feels lame. With the xtra 2k pvp power on weapons casters are obliterating everything. Have fun being the focus target the second you leave stealth.


I'm hearing rogues bursting down someone that is getting away with shuriken when they have bleeds up... crits as high as in the mid 20K's... that sounds pretty good to me. And how is it lame? It sets up really nice redirect combos.

Also, I can see how damage got a jump this week. A looot of people were getting their conq weapons after the reset.

--

I can't wait to get some work done tonight
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8555
11/28/2012 08:12 AMPosted by Revaks
I'm hearing rogues bursting down someone that is getting away with shuriken when they have bleeds up... crits as high as in the mid 20K's


You hear....but do you see?

My ST as combat from +10yds away hits a pirest in a random BG for 6k.....

11/28/2012 08:12 AMPosted by Revaks
But from what I hear and read, other rogues are having a much better all around experience in PvP.


Again where exactly are you hearing this?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
You hear....but do you see?

My ST as combat from +10yds away hits a pirest in a random BG for 6k.....


Correct. I'm seeing tonight for myself.

And a hit for 6k isn't terrible... that's a 10+k crit.

Shuriken builds combo points fast, at range, and now does a little more damage... I don't see how this is bad in any way, shape or form. In many matches I've been mock chasing someone tossing shurikens at them, only to switch with a full stack of points on someone and tear them down.

11/28/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Timat
Again where exactly are you hearing this?

Guildmates. Other friends that play. And browsing other forums.

I'll see for myself tonight, though. Can't wait.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
8555
11/28/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Revaks
Shuriken builds combo points fast, at range, and now does a little more damage... I don't see how this is bad in any way, shape or form


No one is saying its bad.....but it doesnt address any major issues.....

Hell they could nerf it to deal 1/2 its current damage and it still wouldnt make that much of a difference...

Its a wash.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
No one is saying its bad.....but it doesnt address any major issues.....

Hell they could nerf it to deal 1/2 its current damage and it still wouldnt make that much of a difference...

Its a wash.


Other than mobility and your obsession with how weak Versatility is, what are these "major issues"?

Because from a fundamental and technical stand point, Rogues don't seem too broken to me, at all. I see a lot of other classes that are performing outside of THEIR parameters and are, rightly so, being toned down.

Rogues, as a class, don't really have any game breaking issues.

From what I"ve seen on here, a lot of you are asking for things like:

Single Target Killing Spree (This would be too strong if Killing Spree remains as it is... it would basically be an i-win button. There would need to be penalties to making it single target)

Shadowstep Baseline (if this happens, other things must change. Blizzard will not and SHOULD NOT give us Prep AND Shadowstep again, not if Combat and Assassination can make use of those two abilities combined. It would just be too strong, like HARP was... which was too strong. That is a fact, not an opinion.... and believe me, I LOVED HARP.)

Versatility make-over (Sure... but what can they give us? I see a lot of complaints but little rational ideas)

Outside cooldown damage buff (I think as other classes get toned down and we continue to gear up, we'll see our damage outside cooldowns reach a healthy level. Every single expansion has seen rogues get exponentially stronger with each Tier of gear released... I see no difference this time around)

.... I mean, honestly. There's nothing class-breaking about the things I've read about that seem so utterly and desprately necessary. What am I not seeing that you so clearly are to have such a disposition towards our current state?
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90 Undead Rogue
ok
12810
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/arena/malganis/3v3/doing%20it%20with%20a%20rogue/

Times are rough.

The shuriken toss buff was a nice addition to our pressure, considering we can generate combo poiints quickly from range at a low energy cost. The blind buff was HUGE. For the first time in a few months I've actually been able to say "my blind is almost up" before a match is over. But probably the biggest buff we got was the vanish cooldown getting reduced to two minutes in a hotfix shortly after the patch.
Edited by Nessper on 11/28/2012 8:41 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/arena/malganis/3v3/doing%20it%20with%20a%20rogue/

Times are rough.

The shuriken toss buff was a nice addition to our pressure, considering we can generate combo poiints quickly from range at a low energy cost. The blind buff was HUGE. For the first time in a few months I've actually been able to say "my blind is almost up" before a match is over. But probably the biggest buff we got was the vanish cooldown getting reduced to two minutes in a hotfix shortly after the patch.


You go gurlfran!

I'm excited to play in 5.1

Thanks for popping in
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