Exaggerated Complaints: 5.1 Breakdown (PvP)

90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
11/29/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Timat
Shuriken is really good now guys. It's REALLY good.


Hows its changed that much? Its double damage from +10yds away.....but it was never used for damage in the first place.

ATM my ST hits clothies for around 6k and plate for around 3k.....I dont get how that is really good compared to what it did before...its meh at best.


That extra 6-10k damage made the difference when bursting someone down last night. My Shadow Priest partner would always be just a few k's short when I'd get peeled... now I just shuriken them to 5 points and in those 5 throws I racked up damn near 50k more damage than before in some situations.

Have to keep in mind it's a group pvp environment. Every change, no matter how small, makes a difference in a group setting where it would only be minimal in a one on one or PvE situation.
Edited by Revaks on 11/29/2012 8:39 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8070
11/29/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Revaks
Every change, no matter how small, makes a difference in a group setting


Buts its the degree of the difference.

I am sure there are a few cases where ST would help killing someone who is already almost dead....but I dont think it equates to ST being REALLY good....if anything its a time saver, as BoSing over to them and going "chop chop" would have killed them any if they are that low.

Again I am not saying ST is a bad talent.....its not a REALLY good talent either (for its level 90 slot at least), its meh imo.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
The biggest and most tangible moment of things that changed was when I did a handful of 2's and one of the first matches was against a hunter/warrior team... and we survived their outburst with EXACTLY what I had a feeling would be the things that helped.

I opened on the warrior, he avatar'd out and I instantly blinded him... he trinketed, I gouged him, he zerked out, DR kidney shot on him... and my priest was long gone.... he turned to attack me and I dismantled him and kited away towards the hunter, who was having a hard time dealing with my priest after his Stampede got feared away and his Lynx Rush didn't instantly gib one of us down to 10%.

After that, the warrior was subsetible to fear CC and I had blind back up before the hunter got his trinket up (he used it on the priest fear that got his stampede as well) and we got a kill on the warrior.

HUGE difference not having to deal with a gimmick blanket silence from the warrior or an impossible to CC offense out of the gates (stampede/shockwave/avatar/lynx rush combo) we beat a combo that would've been pretty much impossible to handle prior to 5.1... though we did have to play smart and conservative at first.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
11/29/2012 08:44 AMPosted by Timat
Every change, no matter how small, makes a difference in a group setting


Buts its the degree of the difference.

I am sure there are a few cases where ST would help killing someone who is already almost dead....but I dont think it equates to ST being REALLY good....if anything its a time saver, as BoSing over to them and going "chop chop" would have killed them any if they are that low.

Again I am not saying ST is a bad talent.....its not a REALLY good talent either (for its level 90 slot at least), its meh imo.


BoS still costs too much energy though. I think you'll find a quick ST burst (which also serves the dynamic of setting up a redirect kill when paired with vanish on the same CD as Spree) more useful than BoS in the grand scheme of things... No one likes to be Energy Starved for the sake of moving around. At least with ST I can be useful and refresh recup, slice and dice, save points for a stun, etc.

I agree it's nto the end all-be all of talents... but when paired with all our other changes... it really is a lot more attractive.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8070
11/29/2012 08:45 AMPosted by Revaks
opened on the warrior, he avatar'd out


Unless I am missing something......Avatar only breaks roots and snares...not CC like CS (which is what I assume you mean by Avatar'd out your open, if not my mistake)
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90 Night Elf Rogue
6040
11/29/2012 08:50 AMPosted by Timat
opened on the warrior, he avatar'd out


Unless I am missing something......Avatar only breaks roots and snares...not CC like CS (which is what I assume you mean by Avatar'd out your open, if not my mistake)


I open with garrote/shiv a lot with Paralytic. More or less serves the same purpose as CS on melee classes since it holds them there, and it doesn't DR the Kidney. I said it was a DR on Kidney, my mistake. It was simply a 3 point kidney since I couldn't build up too many points while peeling...

They liked to avatar out since before 5.1 they would just use it and not worry about CC.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8070
11/29/2012 08:48 AMPosted by Revaks
I agree it's nto the end all-be all of talents... but when paired with all our other changes... it really is a lot more attractive.


I dont find it any less or more attractive than what it once was.

The damage was nothing special then, and its nothing special now. The main draw was and is the poison application and CP (which again, I dont find particularly that exciting as a level 90 talent)

That said I still use ST in PvP since anticipation is so clunky in PvP outside of CDs and versatility is...well...versatility.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8070
BoS still costs too much energy though. I think you'll find a quick ST burst (which also serves the dynamic of setting up a redirect kill when paired with vanish on the same CD as Spree) more useful than BoS in the grand scheme of things... No one likes to be Energy Starved for the sake of moving around. At least with ST I can be useful and refresh recup, slice and dice, save points for a stun, etc.


Unless I misread your post your ST target was already almost dead from your priest and your ST+finsher killed him.

The same could be done by poping BoS once (or hell even sprint if you arent rooted), running up to them and doing a few quick chops.

I am not saying one is better than the other, I am just saying that the damage ST provides is not game altering in the sense that it couldnt be done just as well without ST.

TBH I dont really see why the buffed the damage of ST at +10yds away.....they took it off Seal fate....the double damage could be active at ANY range and it still wouldnt change much.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7875
I use ST in random bgs involving flag running all the time to peel healers. Since it's a clusterf*** in there anyway, usually the other team is not smart enough to realize that the healer is not with the flag runner anymore. It's led to a few caps just by keeping a healer away from the fc with the snare + mind numbing from the 4pc.

I generally agree with you though Timat, it's not lvl 90 talent worthy, I'd just prefer it replace deadly throw or combine with it, like maybe use it to five points and it becomes a shuriken barrage that interrupts like DT does now at 5pts.

Or better yet, if they're insisting in having some ranged capabilities to rogues with ST/DT, how about making three talents that affect or replace throw and give that tier some consistency.

Logically it just makes more sense to me that the tiers be around the same theme.
LvL 15 is about stealth, cool.
Lvl 30 seems to be about mitigation (deadly throw there is the talent that doesn't belong).
Lvl 45 is survivability (though leeching seems out of place there despite the fact it does help with survivability in questing, IMO should be a dedicated poison tier of new poisons).
Lvl 60 is about Mobility (Prep is out of place there, only a slight tie in to mobility by giving double cloak and double sprint)
Lvl 75 is about Control (again, the poison is out of place, see previous thoughts on a poison tier)
Lvl 90 is supposed to be about "Breaking the Rules" and just flat out has no clear theme. And don't get me started on the garbage that is versatility.

It could definitely be reworked and done right, base line a few or flat out remove the useless or hard to balance around talent, or out of place talents. Make each tier consistent with a certain theme. And just develop some new abilities (or heck, bring back some old ones, like Ghostly Strike (incresed dodge chance) or Riposte (Proc on Parry, adds dynamics to the rotation) or Cold Blood (Crit modifier) as I've seen previously suggested and retune them to be shinier MoP versions).

Not to mention the other cool spec specific things that were that were lost: Deadened Nerves (survivability) Nerves of Steel (stun or fear resist, could be retuned to diminish duration or WotLK damage taken reduced). Unfair Advantage (50% dmg on successful dodges). Waylay (Ambush or Backstab slow) Enveloping Shadows (AoE Reduc). Turn the Tables (Dodge or Parry increases Crit). Aggression (Flat passive damage increase to cp builders). Filthy Tricks (Distract and Prep CD reduc). Setup. (CP gen from dodging an attack). And of course, our Crit Modifiers. I mean if they really got too strong, they could simply scale back the percentage modified as we scale with gear.

To me those were flavor things that got gutted and made the homogenization the way it is today. Obviously they don't need to bring all of them back, but with so many cool older abilities, a lot of them passives, that could simply be reimplemented to work with the MoP goals, it seems strange not put some of them to use to add some flavor back to the individual specs.
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90 Human Rogue
4675
Hey, if anyone is bored and want a laugh read this thread on the heal forum.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7200082357
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11/29/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Sephara
Lvl 30 seems to be about mitigation (deadly throw there is the talent that doesn't belong).


A ranged snare is a type of mitigation against melee (Crippling/Brew on Toss is better). If it could interrupt (not even lockout, just interrupt) with a reasonable cost (i.e. less than 5cp), that'd be mitigation against casters.

11/29/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Sephara
Lvl 45 is survivability (though leeching seems out of place there despite the fact it does help with survivability in questing, IMO should be a dedicated poison tier of new poisons).


Prevent some, heal some, either way it's a type of mitigation. Too bad it only works off strikes and not all damage, it really stinks for Mut.

Speaking of which, there was a report that Shadow Blades weren't proccing poisons, I wonder if even when Leeching is procced, if Shadow Blade (auto-attack) strikes don't proc healing either.

11/29/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Sephara
Lvl 75 is about Control (again, the poison is out of place, see previous thoughts on a poison tier)


PP provides a stun, and provides a root on Shiv, sounds like control to me.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7875
I agree with you Madcap, I do see where you're coming from in term of how they somehow fit into the theme, I'm simply suggesting they could be done a little more consistently.

DT as mitigation against casters is to me kind of a stretch. Ranged snare and at 5cp an Interrupt is decent, but not on par with Nerve Strike or CR. I could see picking up DT against a wizard cleave team, but I can also see the justification for picking up Nerve Strike for the flat 50% damage reduction for 6 seconds and using mind-numbing/toss with the 4pc brew bonus. And since Nerve strike works against all classes, and toss/brew provides a better snare anyway,. this is my go to against War/Mage comps in 2s. Notice TfB stacks on the warrior, hit him with a kidney, now his strikes after tfb are hitting for 50% less, and maybe 80% less on you if you spec elusiveness.

If you do take Nerve Strike though, it's almost a given to take Prey on the Weak, since they have great synergy.

Also, not arguing that Paralytic isn't a control talent. I was just going off of my original premise that there should be a dedicated poison tier.

I'm starting to question that now however because it create more problems, because the poisons would then, have to be thematically the same in terms of what purpose that tier serves. Don't get me wrong, I like paralytic, but find it outclassed by Prey (esp if I take nerve strike) or Dirty Tricks for the free gouge/blind (with glyph of gouge, makes it into a pretty strong interrupt against casters, too).

When I start breaking it down like this though, I do see some of the problems the devs would run into. IF we had a poison tier, it wouldn't be thematically "correct" either if we kept the two new ones they gave us. Paralytic (control) and Leeching (surviability) then we'd have a still non thematically correct tier in terms of the actual theme, outside of the fact that you get to choose one of 3 poisons.

The more I try to work through it, the more I'm beginning to sympathize with the Devs about how hard it was to actually design this tree because of the mechanics regarding the rogue class. Perhaps someday soon, I'll try to put one together to see if I can come up with some something more consistent in terms of theme per tier.

Looking over the other classes talent tiers, it seems to me that Warriors are the most spot on in terms of each tier having a clear theme, hunters come to mind too as having one with spot on thematic consistency. When dealing with the Hybrid healing classes though, it also seems that there is some disparity similar to what we have as rogues, but that's almost a given seeing as how depending on Role, some talents will be absolutely superior to others. But we, as pures, one would think, would be easier to streamline.
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11/30/2012 12:26 PMPosted by Sephara
The more I try to work through it, the more I'm beginning to sympathize with the Devs about how hard it was to actually design this tree because of the mechanics regarding the rogue class.


There are lots of great tier ideas out there, many were given in the few months after the initial and revised Rogue trees were released. The problem isn't ideas, the problem is that we're at the beginning of an expansion and Blizzard is unlikely to make major changes. When I make suggestions, knowing that they're unlikely to be well considered, I try to keep that in mind. I try to think "how could Rogues be made better while making as few changes as possible?"

Then I go out and make huge lists. Hey, I'm only human!

Anyway, I usually break it down into two parts. First of all, there are only two talents who's position bother me enough to suggest a change.
- Forum going Rogues (the only ones providing feedback) pretty much universally despise Prep alongside Step/BoS. Blizzard devs seem to have put in earplugs, covered them with noise canceling headphones, then jacked up the music. It's not helping. Prep needs to go, one way or the other (baseline or remove/rebalance).
- Prey on the Weak is a PvP talent. It doesn't belong on the tree. Bosses can't be stunned and trash dies too quick for +10% damage to be worth 5cp. It isn't even useful for soloing/questing. Meanwhile, Deadly Brew is on the PvP set 4pc. It's completely unavailable for raiders, solo-ers/quest-ers, and even leveling Rogues, all of whom would find it useful. Prey and Brew need to swap places.

The second thing I concentrate on are choice between talents/glyphs/abilities.
- Deadly Throw isn't worthwhile. Why not? Because it's so exceedingly rare to have 5cp at range during a 2 second cast (in either PvP or PvE) that no one is practiced enough to use it even when it does happen. It just isn't practical. It doesn't even give the full 8s snare duration.
- Glyph of Debilitation sounds nice, but it doesn't give the full snare duration either. Moreover, Rogues have a lot more to do than just spam Evis/Envenom.

So imagine for a second is Prey and Brew swapped places, Deadly Throw interrupted (but didn't give a 5s lockout) on 1cp and gave a full 8s snare, and Debilitation included Rupture and also gave a full 8s snare.

You couldn't run Brew with Paralytic or Dirty Tricks ... but you could run Crippling with Dirty Tricks, or run DT/Debilitation with either. That's four distinctly different styles of play, all of which could be competitive, and we haven't even discussed to the other tiers yet.

It doesn't take a lot of huge changes, but small changes could really broaden the Rogue game experience without negatively affecting PvP or PvE balance.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9015
•Careful Aim now increases the critical strike chance of Steady Shot and Aimed Shot by 75% on targets who are above 80% health, down from 90%.
I read this wrong the first time around. So they basically still get the guaranteed crit except its now for 10% more health. That is annoying indeed, though I suppose it's offset a bit with their BW being able to get cc'd.


This doesn't affect bm hunters...only MM even has the careful aim ability and steady shot /aimed shot.

Also, you missed the fact that they mega buffed pvp power on the weapons. Basically anyone with a double upgraded T2 weapon will do stupid damage. Just makes this game even burstier, so terrible, it just negates the progress made in improving pvp made by all these generally good changes
Edited by Vaelseir on 12/10/2012 4:41 PM PST
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