PvP Power and DoT Classes

90 Undead Warlock
6785
Rshaman, Affliction Lock, Unholy DK.

Play that and prosper.

(Seriously)

(No, like seriously...)

Good luck.
Edited by Theinertjerk on 12/4/2012 8:03 AM PST
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90 Undead Hunter
3425
PvP Power heavily favours burst classes. Why is this? Because classes that can burst without much setup are able to force opponents to play defensive very early on. PvP Power exasperates this playstyle.

DoT classes/specs like SPriest, Unholy Dks, Afflic Locks aren't able to setup their damage in this bursty enviroment, and games generally don't go long enough for them to be useful. Sustained pressure is now useless compared to burst because of the 50% plus PvP power we have.

PvP Power in it's current form is ruining the game and it needs to change.

PvP Power was brought in to stop PvE weapons being too strong in PvP. One solution would be to use PvP Power as a scaling stat. Some abilities would scale at 1:1 but some of the more OP abilities could have, say a 1:.7 scale. This would mean PvP Power would still be better than PvE gear and Bliz wouldn't have to touch PvE damage, they could just change how much damage abilities would do to other players.

I have never been one shot, but the amount of times I've been taken from full health to dead within about 3 secs is astounding. This needs to change if PvP is to be fun again.

Seriously Blizz/Ghostcrawler fix this game!!!!!!!


Don't talk about Spriests they need to be nerfed to the ground kthx
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34 Night Elf Priest
0
12/04/2012 08:08 AMPosted by Hellaz
Don't talk about Spriests they need to be nerfed to the ground kthx


No they don't.. :S

Mages are 100000000x better..
Edited by Lureilyia on 12/4/2012 8:10 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
11475
The scary damage shadow priests can do, doesn't come from dots. Right now its mind spikes, mind blast, and shadow word death. The dots give them procs, and some damage. Its important they get their dots up on multiple targets, but not for scoring kills. Unholy dks... were never about dots. It was all about getting your pets out, and your cds lined up. Yes, the dots are a component of that damage, but they aren't the main source of pressure. Even without pets it was more about necrotic strike then anything.

Now please don't misunderstand me here. Yes the dots do damage. Yes you should have them up. Yes they are a component to doing damage. But they are not how these classes are getting kills especially compared to how other classes are doing damage. As of right now, the playing field, the type of damage we are seeing, dots just don't play into that.

Affliction is the only class atm, maybe even excluding boomkins, that gets the majority of its damage from dots. Boomkins are getting 120-200k star surges and 15-30k starfall crits with cds up, can't consider that huge damage dots. If boomkins were scoring kill souly from dots... sure... or even if star surges were hitting for sub 80k... sure. But right now, if you are at half health with a boomkin and his cds are up, you could get gibbed.
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90 Human Warrior
5910
Posted by Hemalador
DoT classes/specs like SPriest, Unholy Dks, Afflic Locks aren't able to setup their damage in this bursty enviroment, and games generally don't go long enough for them to be useful. Sustained pressure is now useless compared to burst because of the 50% plus PvP power we have.


SPriests solved the problem... they're strated oneshoting people not doting...
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90 Undead Warlock
6845
^
Yep, no disagreement. The damage of the ability is calcualted with the normal stats, then multiplied by PvP Power (then decreased by PvP resilience), just like you've stated, but I'm saying this makes abilities unbalanced and unreasonable.


And I'm telling you that this conclusion is wrong. It cannot make abilities unbalanced, because it doesn't scale at all with anything. All scaling is done before PvP Power is applied, all balance has already happened, and PvP Power does not effect it at all, because it's a static increase.

Honestly this is really simple can you please grasp it already
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13 Undead Warlock
0
12/04/2012 04:16 AMPosted by Versuvian
DoT classes/specs like SPriest


Um spriests are amazing right now.


^ Last I checked, spriests are very viable... explain that for a dot class.
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13 Undead Warlock
0
12/04/2012 08:10 AMPosted by Lureilyia
Don't talk about Spriests they need to be nerfed to the ground kthx


No they don't.. :S

Mages are 100000000x better..


deflected! i lold.
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90 Human Warlock
8670
12/04/2012 07:49 AMPosted by Ãpollo
DoT classes/specs like SPriest, Unholy Dks, Afflic Locks aren't able to setup their damage in this bursty enviroment, and games generally don't go long enough for them to be useful. Sustained pressure is now useless compared to burst because of the 50% plus PvP power we have.


10/10
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100 Human Death Knight
13860
^
Yep, no disagreement. The damage of the ability is calcualted with the normal stats, then multiplied by PvP Power (then decreased by PvP resilience), just like you've stated, but I'm saying this makes abilities unbalanced and unreasonable.


And I'm telling you that this conclusion is wrong. It cannot make abilities unbalanced, because it doesn't scale at all with anything. All scaling is done before PvP Power is applied, all balance has already happened, and PvP Power does not effect it at all, because it's a static increase.

Honestly this is really simple can you please grasp it already


I made some graphs which prove my point, but unfortunately I'm a formating noob and couldn't get it here, which is a shame because it clearly and simply showed why PvP Power is a bonus to Burst, so I'll try to explain it to you (which is far from ideal).

Lets compare a DoT class, to a Burst class. The DoT class does constant damage of about the same for the duration, the burst class does "spikey damage". Lets say over 5 sec the DoT class does 5 damage every second. The burst class 4, 6, 9, 4, 2 damage (ie first second does 4 etc). Then lets factor 50% PvP Power in. The DoT class does 7.5 every second. The Burst class does 6, 9, 13.5, 6, 3. Both classes have done the same damage over the full duration. PvP Power has increased each attack of the DoT class by 2.5, but PvP Power has actually increased the Bursts best attack by 4.5.

What this means is that PvP Power has an exponential relationship with the normal attacks as far as the resulting damage goes, when compared to attacks that do less damage. A Chaos bolt might crit for 150k before PvP Power, but with 50% it now hits for 225k, an increase of 75k!!! Blood Plague might tick for 15k , with PvP Power 22.5k, an increase of 7.5k. That increase of 75k is very possibly enough to kill an opponent, the increase of 7.5k isn't.

Even if over the course of a fight the DoT class could theoretically do just as much damage, the extreme spikes stop it from doing so (cos it's dead). Burst shouldn't be something that's taken from the game, its very important, its just the extreme spikes of damage happening is too much. It's worth noting that PvP resilience has the opposite effect and reduces the spikes, but it still doesn't change the fact PvP Power increases them exponentially and indescriminately.

As it stands its a lazy stat (most unlike Blizzard, they do a pretty good job in balancing things in PvE). They just said "what can we do to make PvP gear better for PvP? Lets just throw a flat damage increase on it, that'll do" without putting the thought processes normally designated for PvE into it (think about how well Mastery in PvE works out), and clearly they didn't do much testing with it to see how it would work "in the real world".

TL:DR
PvP Power by itself, amplifies class'es burst, resulting in extreme spikes in damage. This is why its such an obnoxious stat in its current form. This is why it favours Burst damage
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100 Human Death Knight
13860
@ Adroite
Perhaps using the term "pressure classes" rather than DoT classes would be more appropriate. Unholy DK for exampe, where damage is coming from multiple sources (diseases, ghoul, various abilities, weapon swings etc), but in a way where it's not relying on big damage in a short window. When your up against a training dummy (or it has unlimited uptime on a target) Ghoul damage is essentially a DoT.
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90 Undead Warlock
6845
You are still getting it wrong due to missing some very very basic properties of mathematics. I'll try to explain one more time and if you still do not understand there's just nothing I can do for you.

"A Chaos bolt might crit for 150k before PvP Power, but with 50% it now hits for 225k, an increase of 75k!!! Blood Plague might tick for 15k , with PvP Power 22.5k, an increase of 7.5k"

Both abilities have increased by the same amount. 50%.

The difference between the 2 abilities before PvP Power is 1000%- one hits 10 times harder than the other. After PvP Power, the difference between the 2 abilities is STILL 1000%- one STILL hits 10 times harder than the other.

PvP Power does not influence the scaling of the abilities AT ALL. It's literally exactly the same.

The problem is having abilities that hit 1000% harder than other abilities, PvP Power has nothing to do with this.
Edited by Domesauce on 12/4/2012 5:32 PM PST
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From an Afflock standpoint the PvP Power increase was actually a hidden nerf. Our "full damage output" requires us to ramp-up over a 5 second to 10s period depending on what spells you want to count. The variable that makes pvp power a nerf to us is CC and the overall "mechanics" that balance the classes.

All things being equal, a front loaded DD class and an Afflock will spend the same amount of time CC'd. But because our FDO is layered we only get a percentage of our potential damage where as a DD class like a Mage will get 100% of their possible damage when not under CC.

You can walk through the 5-7 spells Affliction has to layer one after another to ramp up to do damage but Agony alone is probably the easiest to visualize the concept. Agony will take 10s to get from 1 stack to 10 stacks. Due to CC's (include dispell in there) in a 10s period you get an average of 5 stacks. They will do about 1/3 of the total damage of the spell in the first 5s with 2/3 being in the last 5s. But we don't get that damage (it got dispelled). A Mage will get 50% of their potential damage over 10s because of the same CC.

The Lock got 3 damage, the Mage got 5 damage. That in itself isn't unfair per say. Damage spells on their own don't make a class, the entirety of a class, their haste, strength, and yes their HP's are all part of it. The DPCT on dots is better than DD's as well, it's all part of the overall "mechanics" that balance the classes.

Now let's add a flat 10% PvP Power (damage) increase. The Afflock goes from 3 to 3.3 damage, the mage from 5 to 5.5 damage. So the Mage gets .2 (or 3.6%) extra damage, to remove the same pool of hitpoints they had pre-patch. Nothing else got changed... As a Lock I have more HP's, but I didn't get an extra 3.6% HP to compensate for the mages 3.6% extra damage output.
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100 Human Death Knight
13860
12/04/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Domesauce
You are still getting it wrong due to missing some very very basic properties of mathematics. I'll try to explain one more time and if you still do not understand there's just nothing I can do for you.


lol i feel the same way.

"A Chaos bolt might crit for 150k before PvP Power, but with 50% it now hits for 225k, an increase of 75k!!! Blood Plague might tick for 15k , with PvP Power 22.5k, an increase of 7.5k"

Both abilities have increased by the same amount. 50%.

The difference between the 2 abilities before PvP Power is 1000%- one hits 10 times harder than the other. After PvP Power, the difference between the 2 abilities is STILL 1000%- one STILL hits 10 times harder than the other.


Yes I DO understand it's a flat benefit, I think I've stated it plenty of times by now. And yes if the burst ABILITIES were toned down it would lower burst (it probably won't happen due to the way damage is balanced aroung PvE).

Maybe to put it another way.

Lets pretend there's a DoT class and a Burst class. They do the exact same damage in a 2 min fight. The DoT class does it's damage at a constant, unchanging rate. The Burst class does 80% of the total damage in a 30 sec window. Lets say During this fight both classes do 1000 damage. During that 30 sec window the Burst class does 800, the DoT class does 250.

Now lets add PvP Power at 50%. Both classes now do 1500 damage over 2 mins. In that 30 sec window the Burst class does 1200, an increase of 400 damage, the DoT class does 375, an increase of 125. Lets pretend both classes are fighting against each other, have no resil and have 1000 HP. The Burst class kills the DoT class in less than 30 secs with over 600 HP left. If they both had 1500 HP it would be a draw. If they both had 2000 HP the burst class would win.

As much as anything this example displays the nature of burst. It also shows, because most of the Burst class'es damage is compressed, how PvP Power increases that Burst. The DoT class still gets the benefit of the PvP Power stat, but it is given it over a much longer time frame, the Burst class gets the benefit of 50% PvP Power whenever it decides to burst.

If you can't see how PvP Power buffs high damage in a short time duration vs constant damage over time after several explainations I don't think your willing to look at this issue objectively.
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70 Blood Elf Warrior
2660
12/04/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Dotkills


Um spriests are amazing right now.


^ Last I checked, spriests are very viable... explain that for a dot class.


Their mechanics are nothing like a true dot class. They use their dots to proc instant mind blasts, mind spikes, devouring plagues (which has been converted from a weak DoT to a strong burst nuke). Plus of course SW:Death.
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90 Tauren Druid
WGS
9620
12/04/2012 07:50 AMPosted by Kretar
Any buff to healers should be accompanied by a nerf to mana regen, in order to slow the game down, and allow teams to focus on either burst OR preventing the healer from using their efficient heals, and running them OOM.


Agreed 100%

I have been playing a healer in pvp for 7 years. Having to use caution when spamming heals for watching mana levels is something that adds extra skill to the game and personally I love it.

At the moment though with burst being so high, You just spam the fastest heal you got cuz other wise sh!ts gon die.
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90 Tauren Druid
WGS
9620
12/04/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Domesauce
The problem is having abilities that hit 1000% harder than other abilities, PvP Power has nothing to do with this.


Yeah the problem is balance.
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90 Human Death Knight
6630
I forgot that people have a base 40% resilience... Seeing as 50% pvp power only makes them do 10% more damage... Not must be something wrong with pvp power not the burst potential of some classes. Must be PvP power being 50% and everyone having 0% resilience even though a level 1 has 40% resil...
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90 Human Paladin
6815
Feral Druids would like to tell you on just how "bad" DoT classes are.
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90 Orc Rogue
10185
I'll tackle your contrived example.


Lets pretend there's a DoT class and a Burst class. They do the exact same damage in a 2 min fight. The DoT class does it's damage at a constant, unchanging rate. The Burst class does 80% of the total damage in a 30 sec window. Lets say During this fight both classes do 1000 damage. During that 30 sec window the Burst class does 800, the DoT class does 250.

Now lets add PvP Power at 50%.


Ok, let's say you get your wish. PvP is totally removed. Now there's a whole lot less damage in the game, and a whole lot more itemization left over on the PvP gear. That itemization is going to go somewhere. Considering that PvP power was an offensively itemized stat, it seems natural to say, "Let's put it into offense."

Ok. You now have more strength on your burst class, and intellect on your dot class. As stats usually do, they increase your damage. Str increases attack power, and int increases spellpower. Assuming our players are both equally geared, we raise our dps by an equal amount. Let's say 50%.

Resume your "analysis":

Both classes now do 1500 damage over 2 mins. In that 30 sec window the Burst class does 1200, an increase of 400 damage, the DoT class does 375, an increase of 125. Lets pretend both classes are fighting against each other, have no resil and have 1000 HP. The Burst class kills the DoT class in less than 30 secs with over 600 HP left. If they both had 1500 HP it would be a draw. If they both had 2000 HP the burst class would win.

As much as anything this example displays the nature of burst.


As we can see, you don't have a problem with PvP power. You have a problem with burst.
Edited by Kretar on 12/4/2012 9:13 PM PST
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