PvP Power and DoT Classes

90 Undead Warlock
6845
12/04/2012 06:44 PMPosted by Hemalador
You are still getting it wrong due to missing some very very basic properties of mathematics. I'll try to explain one more time and if you still do not understand there's just nothing I can do for you.


lol i feel the same way.


I don't know why you would feel the same way, I understand exactly what you are saying and exactly why it's wrong. Damage disparity between different abilities CANNOT be changed by a flat percentage increase. It's literally just impossible, it acts on both of them in the same way. Listen to me or wallow in ignorance, peasant.
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90 Orc Rogue
10185
12/04/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Domesauce
Listen to me or wallow in ignorance, peasant.


I like you.
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100 Undead Warlock
10495
12/04/2012 03:38 AMPosted by Memoirs
as for affliction its just more of a support class, putting a UA over a deep freeze will punish dispellers very heavily its either a deep freeze goes off or they eat a silence, either opens up cc/burst oppurtunity.


Not at all. If you dispel deep freeze and affliction's dots, you've stopped both their means of dealing damage.
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100 Human Death Knight
15370
@Kretor
So increasing primary stats won't increase damage by nearly the amount you claim, theres a reason that PvP Power is preffered over primary stats, because it scales damage significantly higher. You will never get an increase of 50% on damage through gems, 10% would be a more realistic number. Also again certain abilities scale differently with primary stats. Abilities that scale attack/spell power will start hitting harder, abilities relying heavily on weapon damage will change by a smaller amount. Also what i would like to see is not removal of PvP Power, just a reworking to use as a scaling stat as the OP states.

Edit: Sorry I skipped over part of your argument. With the removal of PvP Power blizzard would never put more offensive stats on gear. They are trying differenciate PvP gear from PvE, they can't turn around and put more offensive stats on HP and CP gear because that will suddenly be better than raiding gear.

@Domesauce
Where do you find error? Do you accept that PvP Power is going to drastically increase burst given that classes get their 50% increase in damage to the window where they do a large amount of their damage?

12/04/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Domesauce
Damage disparity between different abilities CANNOT be changed by a flat percentage increase.


Can you reword this? As I'm reading it it seems to support my argument. One ability does 100, another does 50. Pvp Power is at 10%. First ability now does 110, second does 55. One increases by 10 damage, the other 5. Although both abilities got increased by 10% they both did not go up by the same amount. This is kinda what I'm saying and if I'm reading it right your agreeing with what I'm saying.

12/04/2012 09:40 PMPosted by Domesauce
Listen to me or wallow in ignorance, peasant.

then trying to insult me, cheers bud
Edited by Hemalador on 12/5/2012 5:37 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5640
Agreed for anything but Spriests. Spriests have better defensives than most melees, have more burst than the majority of classes (while having good sustained), and has more team utility than any other spec in the game.

Unholy DKs and Affliction locks need some love. Spriests need some nerfs (along with frost mages, warriors, and ferals).

And like someone stated earlier, affliction and Unholy fail because of "burst." Burst meaning burst HEALING and DAMAGE. The game favors both. A DoT class doesn't have a few globals to set up their burst because a healer will have his teammate up from 40% to 100% in one global. So the only way to counteract this is to have the reverse, a class like an arms warrior that can take a teammate from 100% to 50-60% in one global and secure a kill with his equally bursty teammate.
Edited by Harcken on 12/4/2012 11:01 PM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
6845
12/04/2012 10:50 PMPosted by Hemalador
Damage disparity between different abilities CANNOT be changed by a flat percentage increase.


Can you reword this? As I'm reading it it seems to support my argument. One ability does 100, another does 50. Pvp Power is at 10%. First ability now does 110, second does 55. One increases by 10 damage, the other 5. Although both abilities got increased by 10% they both did not go up by the same amount. This is kinda what I'm saying and if I'm reading it right your agreeing with what I'm saying.


100 is twice as much as 50, and 110 is twice as much as 55. The relative amount of damage has not changed.

Let me try a counter-example. Let's say I have a dot that does 1 damage, and a burst ability that does 5 million damage. Then we add in 1% PvP Power. Now we have a dot that does 1.01 damage, and a burst ability that does 5,050,000. Is the insane difference between the dot and the burst caused by the % increase, or the fact that the numbers are way off in the first place?

And another. By your logic, damage reduction (resilience) would more than counteract this effect. If we were to take 100 damage being reduced to 50, and 50 damage being reduced to 25, you would say that the first was reduced by 50, and the second only by 25, so therefore the damage reduction is hurting the higher number more than the lower number. Of course, in reality, they're both being reduced by 50%, so they're both being effected the same amount.

You are applying a % change and then trying to find the difference via subtraction, it just doesn't work that way, I don't know how else to explain, maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratio, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_change_and_difference
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100 Human Death Knight
15370
^
To the first part of that, obviously the disparity between to 2 abilities caused the increase, but the 1% PvP Power CAUSED the ability to do 49,999.99 more than the other one. If PvP Power were removed the first ability would still be doing more but the difference between to two abilities would be less, therefore PvP Power causes (that already insane amount of damage) to do more. Obviously in reality a burst class isn't going to be bursting 100% of the time, but as we are clearly seeing very large burst is what's killing players and making the game not fun.

Blizzard will never reduce the burst of classes unless they wish to change the playstyle in PvE. PvP Power exasperate burst. I'm thinking your not factoring in HP, or at least effective health. There is a ceiling at which a class can no longer take damage, this is called 0 HP. Essentially effective health is a static number (I know certain abilities and gearing strat change it) which is why the actual difference, not the relative difference, of damage PvP Power causes classes to do is important. A burst class is going to reach this threshold faster due to PvP Power (also because of the nature of the spec, but we aren't talking about spec, we are talking about PvP Power), than a DoT class. The DoT class will then be dead making it not able to utilise the damage PvP Power gives it.

The point I'm making is: in isolation, with no other factors, by itself, PvP Power increases the TOTAL amount of damage in a short period of time. Over the full duration the two styles may be close, DoT classes may even pull ahead. But given the effective health we all have, PvP Power makes burst damage more extreme and able to reach that threshold, which is our health bar to 0, much easier and faster than DoT classes.

Again yes if the actually burst of the problem classes was to be nerfed, there would not be as much of an issue, but the stat "PvP Power" in it's current state, is making burst more extreme.
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100 Human Death Knight
15370
12/04/2012 11:53 PMPosted by Domesauce
And another. By your logic, damage reduction (resilience) would more than counteract this effect. If we were to take 100 damage being reduced to 50, and 50 damage being reduced to 25, you would say that the first was reduced by 50, and the second only by 25, so therefore the damage reduction is hurting the higher number more than the lower number. Of course, in reality, they're both being reduced by 50%, so they're both being effected the same amount.


Just on this, yes resilience does have the opposite effect, it smooths out the damage peaks. That doesn't change the fact PvP Power causes higher spikes. So then you might say, increase the resilience on gear. This again is a blunt solution that would cause many problems (think about how fun gearing an alt will be and if it was over done how long arena games could last for). And to the last part obviously 100 to 50 to 25 is 100 loosing 50 then 25, and of course its being halved twice, I don't know what your point is or why its relevent to the discussion.
Edited by Hemalador on 12/5/2012 12:31 AM PST
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100 Worgen Druid
13530
Why does my affliction warlock in quest greens do more damage than my bursty specs?
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90 Undead Warlock
6845
^
To the first part of that, obviously the disparity between to 2 abilities caused the increase


I did not ask if the disparity caused the increase, I asked if the disparity was caused BY the increase, or by the disparity itself. The answer is that it was caused by the disparity, please try to grasp this instead of misreading and then continuing to be wrong.

PvP Power does not effect the disparity between DoTs and burst. It scales exactly equally with both. Your entire premise for this thread is wrong. Period. Sorry.
Edited by Domesauce on 12/5/2012 9:44 AM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
15370
^
Ummm the disparity was caused by the disparity.

Edit: The disparity I was refering to was the initial difference between the two abilities before PvP Power.

PvP Power then increased the disparity in actual terms, but not realitive terms. Actual damage kills people, relative damage increases is a subject I'll be thinking about in the graveyard because I died to actual damage.

12/04/2012 11:53 PMPosted by Domesauce
Is the insane difference between the dot and the burst caused by the % increase, or the fact that the numbers are way off in the first place?


As I just said, the gap is indeed big between the 2 abilities. But to answer this question more succinctly, both are true, when looking at actual, not relative damage.

Again actual damage, my friend, is the important factor. If games were decided by who did the most damage in a given time frame, PvP Power would show no bias, you could say actual damage of burst classes isn't important and DoT classes aren't disadvantaged, because, in relative terms the damage increase from PvP Power benefits both strategies equally.

However games are decided by players reaching 0 HP, in which case PvP Power favours burst classes as the actual damage increases have an exponential relationship the higher damage thos abilities do. Making it easier for burst classes to force their opponents to 0 HP, which signifies a loss.

You appear to be arguing that because PvP Power is a x% increase in damage from all sources, in relative terms all abilities are treated evenly. Can't you see how this is flawed?
Edited by Hemalador on 12/5/2012 3:25 PM PST
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Let's simplify this... Every class has 3 basic components, Offence, Defence and Utility. Different classes are balanced by different levels of each of these components.

An Arms Warrior, 100 hp
Offence = 10
Defence = 5
Utility = 3

Protection Warrior, 100 hp
Offence = 5
Defence = 10
Utility =3

If they hit each other back and forth they'll both die on exactly the same hit, having done exactly the same amount of damage. Now let's give them 10% more PvP Power...

The Arms Warrior clearly wins the fight every time now because his damage output is higher than the Prot Warriors defence abilities. To balance them, both Warriors need all thier defensive abilities increased by 10% as well. This time the Prot Warrior benefits more, and both warriors are now "balanced".

You can do the same thing for every other class, it's the same. Classes with "high" Burst/offense got better, everyone else, including Afflocks, prot palies, prot warriors, rogues etc. got a nerf.
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90 Undead Warlock
6845
^However games are decided by players reaching 0 HP, in which case PvP Power favours burst classes as the actual damage increases have an exponential relationship the higher damage thos abilities do. Making it easier for burst classes to force their opponents to 0 HP, which signifies a loss.


You were so close...

Yes, PvP Power increases all damage. It makes people do more damage and it makes other people die faster.

But it doesn't effect burst any differently than it effects DoTs. Both burst and DoTs make people die the same amount faster with PvP Power.

If you lowered PvP Power by 10%, people would do 10% less burst, and not die as easily. But, you would also lower DoT damage by 10%, and DoTs would also be weaker- exactly as much weaker than burst is. The disparity between burst and DoTs WOULD NOT CHANGE. I really don't understand why you won't listen to me, it's so !@#$ing simple.

12/05/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Hemalador
You appear to be arguing that because PvP Power is a x% increase in damage from all sources, in relative terms all abilities are treated evenly. Can't you see how this is flawed?


Can't you see how this is not flawed at all? It's actually exactly correct.

The mistake you are making is this. You are saying, damage is too high, PvP Power increases damage, so removing PvP Power will fix damage being too high. This is absolutely correct. But then you are saying, that removing it will lower burst damage, while somehow not lowering DoT damage by the exact same amount- but it actually will.

Burst damage needs to be nerfed because it's so easy to get one shot, and DoT damage needs to be buffed because it does nothing. Removing a flat percent change that effects them both EQUALLY will do absolutely nothing. ad;lkjfasdlkfja;
Edited by Domesauce on 12/5/2012 5:39 PM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
15370
12/05/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Domesauce
But it doesn't effect burst any differently than it effects DoTs. Both burst and DoTs make people die the same amount faster with PvP Power.

This statement is false, you don't seem to be factoring in how classes do their damage, and how PvP Power effects that damage. Your stuck in a false paradigm.

12/05/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Domesauce
I really don't understand why you won't listen to me, it's so !@#$ing simple.

I have listened to your arguments, it is fairly simple to understand, but your conclusions are still incorrect.

Mate, it's clear we are getting nowhere. I do fully understand what your saying and it's not an accurate representation of whats going. I think I've presented a pretty compelling argument as to how PvP Power is acting atm and why its favours burst damage, anything I said at this point would just be me repeating myself.
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100 Human Death Knight
15370
12/05/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Domesauce
The mistake you are making is this. You are saying, damage is too high, PvP Power increases damage, so removing PvP Power will fix damage being too high. This is absolutely correct. But then you are saying, that removing it will lower burst damage, while somehow not lowering DoT damage by the exact same amount- but it actually will.


Nope, thats not quite what I'm saying. Yes damage is too high imo. Removing PvP Power will reduce damage. Removing it will reduce burst damage. Reducing PvP Power will also reduce DoT damage. And it will by the exact same percent as burst damage. All damage will be reduced my the exact same percentage. This doesn't prove false anything I've said so far. The way PvP Power acts with damage increases is the important bit, not the percent it increases, but the actual damage, the real damage, the damage we are all taking, the damage that kills people. The damage.
Edited by Hemalador on 12/5/2012 6:08 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
6630
Thing that is being failed to be seen is the window of damage burst has. I have 15ish seconds to do the maximum amount of damage I can. For a frost 2h dk this is a total of 6 obliterates (with empower rune weapon). Overtime DoTs and Burst damage abilities will even out, the problem is this evening out will rarely occur because burst just destroys you before DoT can do its full amount of damage. By lowering PvP power (not removing it) we can start to make them become equal with how much damage they can do. Granted a class will be able to kill you using burst if you are undergeared but it will no longer come down to who has the most burst to who has the most sustained damage.

Remember the longer the fight lasts the more and more ineffective burst will become, and more and more effective DoT's are. With MoP instead of extending fights in arena or rated battle ground they turned them in to 20 gcd fights instead of intense fights that can droll on for 15 minutes for the case of many classes. I.E (using death knight as that is the class I play) it lasts for 2 minutes or so because I have no effective way to survive any classes full burst.

In conclusion lowering PvP power and putting a slight nerf to Burst potential can potentially balance the game out for many different specs (such as rogues, boomkins, deathknights, afflict locks and any other class that does better the longer the fight goes on). I say rogues as I feel rogues maybe better or may not be better who knows? I don't play one so I don't. But I do know Death Knights will excel with this and may need a small nerf to their damage(not unholy...) as I have said if that death knight survives for to long you will start to feel his damage. PvP power has grown way to out of control allowing PvP resilience to be an almost worthless stat and PvP power needs to be lowered to be at least 10% lower then Resilience is at all times.
Edited by Fálrin on 12/5/2012 6:23 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
15965
One of the premises in PvE is that all dps specs should put out similar damage over a long fight. How they do it, whether in spikes or evenly over time is largely irrelevant with variety adding flavour.

Roll this premise into PvP and we have an issue because spiky damage gets kills and relatively even damage over time is more easily managed.

The more bursty the game is designed to be the more damage buffs like PvP Power favour the bursty, they just take a higher chunk of health with each burst opportunity and therefore increase likelihood of a kill.

While the coefficients used for abilities within PvP and PvE remain the same, a DoT spec like Affliction cannot get a PvP damage increase with which to get kills.

IMO, the low budget cost of PvP Power coupled with the desire to make PvP weapons undesirable for PvE (so they don’t feel compelled to PvP to guarantee getting them) forced the high levels of PvP Power on PvP weapon upgrades. This design choice buffs burst and therefore bursty specs in PvP.

Perhaps if there were coefficients on individual abilities adjusting the ratio of PvP Power applied, then bursty abilities could be toned down and DoT abilities could be tuned up without any affect on PvE. This doesn’t address the uber bursty state of damage relative to player health inherited from PvE balance in the first place.
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90 Human Warlock
4610
Ok...I think the point here can more easily be stated as:

pre-pvp power buff:

During burst phase both dps blow cds. Dps 1 does 40% dmg, Dps 2 does another 40%. Cds are blown and the team recovers.

post-pvp power buff:

During burst phase boths dps pop cds. Dps 1 does 50% dmg, Dps 2 does 50% dmg, gg. Unless, several cds are blown and done so preemptively.

This puts the game on a very short timer before all defensives are gone. There is no way a dot team can wear the other team down before they simply flop. I'm not saying dot classes were doing well, but this certainly makes things worse.

Pvp power is not to blame specifically, but a % dmg increase will always increase the potency of burst more than sustained dmg. If it was switched and dmg was so low overall that burst phases couldn't cause even a single defensive cd, the only way to win would be to wear the team out (if healers can even be worn out anymore).
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I've seen it all, flat damage increase favors X > Y
Flat Damage increase.
what.
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90 Undead Warlock
6845
12/05/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Hemalador
Nope, thats not quite what I'm saying. Yes damage is too high imo. Removing PvP Power will reduce damage. Removing it will reduce burst damage. Reducing PvP Power will also reduce DoT damage. And it will by the exact same percent as burst damage. All damage will be reduced my the exact same percentage. This doesn't prove false anything I've said so far. The way PvP Power acts with damage increases is the important bit, not the percent it increases, but the actual damage, the real damage, the damage we are all taking, the damage that kills people. The damage.


Yea, the damage. All of the damage. Effected the same.
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