healing Gara'jal (pally and shaman)

90 Tauren Warrior
9435
We're finding our healers are struggling to top the buff off in the spirit world. The shaman glyphed riptide, and that seemed to work better, so that side of things is a lot better.

What options do pally's have?

This week we'll be bringing a holy/disc healer, so I think we'll most likely just have her sit in the middle, set the ranged beside her, and let her smite heal to success in the spirit world. If we do this the shaman will be dpsing, but is there anything in particular we need to be working on?

We're bringing haste flasks to help them out, but is there anything in particular we can be doing to make it easier?
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90 Human Paladin
13040
Just bomb fast heals on yourself to get your regen started then start bombing FoL on the dps that are in with you.

I have to say that's a really strange spot to be struggling with healing.


This week we'll be bringing a holy/disc healer, so I think we'll most likely just have her sit in the middle, set the ranged beside her, and let her smite heal to success in the spirit world. If we do this the shaman will be dpsing, but is there anything in particular we need to be working on?


And to this I just say, what?

All the healer who goes in needs to do is bomb their flash heal to top people off. If they start with themselves they will have the regen buff running so the flash heal won't drain them. Just make sure before you exit the spirit realm that you hit yourself again to refresh the buff.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
Just to be clear, I'm not one of the healers.

heal yourself and then the dps was the strategy, but for some reason they were struggling to top off the buff.

I hear what you're saying, but they were not able to top the dps off, which I want to try and fix. I know at one point we did have a few dps die on the inside, and the healer stated they were trying to heal themselves first.

How do you propose that be fixed? And please don't say 'get better', that's part of the point of this thread.
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I don't get how they weren't able to do it. You use your fast heal. Healing Surge for Shaman and Flash of Light for Paladin. The priest you are bringing next time can use Binding Heal.

edit: If they were using their fast heals and still not doing it... I don't know what to say... get better gear? Better food? Better flasks?

edit again: Really not trying to come off as rude, but as the above poster said, that is a really strange place to be struggling. Literally ALL you do is spam your fastest casting heal since mana is infinite as long as you rotate properly into spirit realm.
Edited by Morenn on 11/23/2012 6:37 PM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
What I'm saying is I think they tried to do the fast heals on themselves and then the dps once and the dps died, so they may be too worried to do it, despite me asking them to.

The impression I got from reading is that it was easy to do as well, but they're not doing it. I'll talk to them about it and see.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10595
I've got no idea how they're having an issue with it. Especially the pally.

Holy Paladins have Holy Shock, Flash of Light and Word of Glory/Eternal Flame. But most importantly, they have beacon. Your Pally should be able to top themselves and one other DPS off in ~5-10 seconds, depending on procs, giving plenty of time to get the other DPS up. I raid 25 man and can get myself plus 4 DPS up in that 30 seconds (usually in ~20 seconds everyone is full health and I'm just bombing heals on myself to make 100% sure I got the regen).

But as it was said above, even if they just use Healing Surge or Flash of Light. There should be zero issue with being able to get DPS to full before 30 seconds are up.
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Well if they are not comfortable doing themselves to full buff before working to the dps, they could heal in a circle.. themself, DPS1, DPS2, themself, DPS1, DPS2, etc. Beyond that, I don't know. It shouldn't take more than 2 or so heals per person to get their health to full (which is what is required to be able to see the button to get out). The rest of that is just (more) buff. Are you sure it's people not getting healed or could it be people not clicking their button to get out?

edit: Good call on Beacon. I didn't even think of that (don't run with a pally, lol). That should be similar to me using Binding Heal and I know I can get all 3 of us to full health and full buff well within the allotted 30s.
Edited by Morenn on 11/23/2012 6:48 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
9545
Flash of Light and Healing Surge spam. You don't have to top off the buff on everyone. Get the healing buff enough to enable you to spam anything, then I focused the strongest DPS in the Spirit World with me to get their buff maxed. Then spent any available time left on the other dps.

But you don't have to max the buff. The buff is there to help make up for the time spent in the Spirit World. If you're delaying DPS-ing the boss to get the buff to max, then you're wasting your time.

If all the adds are dead, or most of them, go ahead and pop back to DPS-ing the boss. Unless you're the healer, then go ahead and heal yourself enough to get mana back if you need it.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
Just to be clear, they're getting them topped off, and the dps are leaving, they're just not topping the buff off. I'm seeing numbers of 2-5% for the dps when they leave (I'm guessing, I don't recall exactly, but it was low). When I said the dps died, I meant they *died*. Not from staying in too long, but from a lack of hp.

Malrius, that's a good idea about focusing on the strong dps first, I'll mention that to them.

11/23/2012 06:48 PMPosted by Malrius
If all the adds are dead, or most of them, go ahead and pop back to DPS-ing the boss. Unless you're the healer, then go ahead and heal yourself enough to get mana back if you need it.


Part of the issue is that we're struggling to kill the adds, so my solution at this point is to get the buff going for the dps on the inside. If it's still an issue, then we'll have something else to fix.
Edited by Rvalue on 11/23/2012 7:23 PM PST
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Just to be clear, they're getting them topped off, and the dps are leaving, they're just not topping the buff off. I'm seeing numbers of 2-5% for the dps when they leave (I'm guessing, I don't recall exactly, but it was low). When I said the dps died, I meant they *died*. Not from staying in too long, but from a lack of hp.


I am terribly terribly confused. If they are dying inside, it is from not hitting the button. If they are dying outside, then yes that is a healing issue but does not have anything to do with them getting the buff.

Are they leaving as soon as they are topped off? You have 30s to be in spirit realm. Yes you can leave before then if the adds are under control, but if not you stay in as long as it takes as long as you leave before 30s (DBM gives a countown).

My question as plain as I can make it (and you may have been trying to say this from the beginning and I am missing it). Are the healers chain casting for the full 30 seconds and only managing to get people to a 2-5% buff?

edit: The only way to really die inside is from not hitting the button. If it's outside that they are dying, the problem is with the healers mishandling voodoo dolls and that's an entirely different issue.

edit again: Unless there are massive amounts of adds that are really doing *that* much damage, but if that is the case.. that is a dps issue, NOT a healing issue.
Edited by Morenn on 11/23/2012 7:44 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13390
Sounds like a issue my raid group was having up until recently, though we 3-heal.

Do remember that the adds can, and will, attack people who are in the spirit realm. This not only causes extra damage that has to be healed, but can interrupt the healer's cast times, slowing down the rate that they can bomb the heals.

Especially with you saying that your raid is struggling to kill adds, it sounds like the problem lay not with your healers, but with your DPS not killing enough adds fast enough.

Though, what could also be an issue is how long of a delay you have between a totem spawning, and the healer + 2 DPS crossing over. The longer it takes for the DPS to cross over, the more adds there will be when they do finally cross over.

What may also help is knowing whether you're getting overrun with adds, or not making the enrage timer; as the buff does not NEED to be at max for your DPS to kill Gara'Jal in time, assuming that they are leaving the Spirit Realm ASAP.

Perhaps a strategy that might work is to get 1 DPS up to full HP ASAP so they can leave and DPS Gara'Jal, while the other DPS remains behind for the full ~25 seconds to clear out adds.

*Edit*: To the poster above me, who posted while I was writing this, people in the Spirit Realm do take damage from adds. It is unlikely that they would die from this damage as they should be getting healed for far more than the damage they are taking, but if too many adds are up, it's possible for people to be focused by a number of adds, and potentially die.
Edited by Safiyr on 11/23/2012 7:45 PM PST
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11/23/2012 07:41 PMPosted by Safiyr
*Edit*: To the poster above me, who posted while I was writing this, people in the Spirit Realm do take damage from adds. It is unlikely that they would die from this damage as they should be getting healed for far more than the damage they are taking, but if too many adds are up, it's possible for people to be focused by a number of adds, and potentially die.


Yeah, I went back and editted to account for that. I was not considering it because the thought of enough adds to be up to do enough damage to cause death was... well.. unthinkable. But yeah, if that is the case, the "fault" lies with the dps, not the healers.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11680
It sounds to me like your healers simply don't understand how the buff generation works; if people are leaving the Spirit Realm with only 2-5% buff then your healers are using mostly spells that do not generate "stacks".

I did a lot of work on this buff and wrote a very long blog post about it, but the relevant information is summed up in a "TL:DR" table a little way down the page:

http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/spiritual-innervation-moderately-demystified/

And at the end I make specific recommendations for each class, which I'll kinda rephrase here in case your healers aren't interested in the nitty gritty details on my blog :P

For Pallies: Beacon yourself - beacon heals do cause stacks - and make sure to have either 2 HoPo and Holy Shock off CD or 3 HoPo when you go down. HS or WoG a friend straight away to get a bit of the mana regen buff going for you and then spam Flash of Light on your friends until they are topped up. Once they're healed up you probably are too, so now you can just round-robin with flash heals to keep increasing everyone's stacks. Glyph of Flash of Light is great here; using AW or DF while in the Spirit Realm will also increase stack generation.

For Shaman: Glyph of Riptide is very, very meh. I would not use it on this fight. Not that there are many good Glyphs for this fight, but the initial healing of Riptide will generate more stacks than its HoT ticks do so purely for stack generation purposes, a Glyphed Riptide is gimped.

Before going into the Spirit Realm, cast Riptide and Unleash Life (in that order). Then when you arrive, GHW yourself - you'll be on like 10k mp5 on your buff and most of the way to full health already with that single cast. Then focus on your allies. I personally didn't use Riptide once I was downstairs (HoTs have a weird interaction with the buff stacking mechanism), I just spammed Healing Surges. Elemental Mastery is a great CD to use here as it helps you stack your buff faster; other Shaman CDs like Ancestral Guidance, Ascendance, Healing Stream Totem, and Healing Tide Totem will obviously help to heal players up but their healing generates no stacks so I would recommend using these CDs when not in the Spirit Realm.

Priests: For Holy, be in Serenity Chakra, use Binding Heal x 2 (to generate Serendipity) then Greater Heal. For Disc, be sure to have 5 stacks of Evangelism available and use Archangel just before entering the Spirit Realm, then use Binding Heal/Flash Heal/Penance. Absorbs do not generate any stacks so if you want to shield your Spirit Realm teammates, do it right before you go down into the Spirit Realm, rather than wasting your GCDs on stackless spells while inside.

In all cases, heal yourself again right before leaving the Spirit Realm, so you refresh the duration of your buff. An instant heal is fine for this.

Hope this helps! :)
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90 Worgen Druid
9545
Rvalue, what is your DPS make-up?
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90 Draenei Shaman
15000
Bomb people inside with your biggest heal. As you heal you gain a buff called Spiritual Innervate, and for healers it works like a replenishment effect. The amount of mp5 restored increases as you heal more inside.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
What I do is LoH the first trip in our strongest dps. I flash of light spam and shock the rest of us up and hop out. If there are a lot of adds the healing outside will be heavy so it's important to save that mana pot, swapping beacon like was mentioned. If they need to, have them pick up the flash of light glyph.
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90 Human Paladin
15420
11/24/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Rainstorms
What I do is LoH the first trip in our strongest dps. I flash of light spam and shock the rest of us up and hop out. If there are a lot of adds the healing outside will be heavy so it's important to save that mana pot, swapping beacon like was mentioned. If they need to, have them pick up the flash of light glyph.


This is actually a good advice. Glyph Flash of Light has become a permanent fixture now. As my gear get better, my Flash of Light usage is starting to go up. When we two-healed Wind Lord, I did 40+ FoLs. Not exactly spamming it, but definitely not something that I could have done at the beginning of the expansion.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9910
I think I know what the problem is, because I had someone die once when I healed him up fully. Have your healers heal the target for above 100%. Many raid frames will round up, which usually isn't a big deal, but in the spirit realm, if the target is at 99.98% full health, he will still die. Some raid frames have a marker that tells when the target is in the clear, but I just make sure that they are above 100%.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm seeing some great advice here, I'll be directing the healers in question to this thread.

Someone asked about our dps makeup

We run a 12 man roster and trade out, here are the dps we have available to us in roughly the order of their dps.

dps:
1 rogue
1 spriest
1 mage
1 hunter
1 boomkin
2 deathknights
1 ele shaman

healers:
1 resto shaman <-- this is ele shaman above, he flips to dps as needed
1 holy pally
1 holy/disc priest

tanks:
1 warrior (me)
1 deathknight

Unfortunately I don't have a WoL parse for our last night in there because I'm a fool who forgot to do it.

Dayani, thanks for that write up, I'll definitely have them go check it out.

Safiyr, your question about how long it takes to get into the spirit world is intriguing. What we've been doing is having the dps run to the outside of the totem ring, having the healer going in run to the center, and then having them call it out, so the dps know they're free to kill the totem. We made it the personal responsibility for the dps that the totem doesn't die until the healer is in place. If they go in without a healer, it's their fault, even if the healer didn't call it out. Less communication necessary that way, less confusion too imo.

It may be that's too slow, but I can't really think of a strategy that's hands down better, however I'm all ears.

Your observation about the cast time being slowed due to the adds attacking is something I hadn't really considered. I *know* the add management is a problem, they're not all dying, but I also know that the healers aren't getting the buff stacked, and since that helps dpsing the adds, I feel like I need to try and solve that issue first. I'm open to any suggestions, I'm just explaining my rationale for looking at the healers first.

The last night, we started using garajalinnervation (http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/garajalinnervation) to track the stacks, and it seemed to work fairly well. There's another addon that calls out who goes in the spirit world, but it didn't really seem to make us more effective, so we stopped using it.
Edited by Rvalue on 11/24/2012 2:50 PM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
isabelf, that's a good observation, I'll make sure to pass that along in case it's been tripping anyone up.
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