healing Gara'jal (pally and shaman)

90 Tauren Warrior
9435
also, I re-read my initial post, and I can see how it was confusing.

When I said they were 'unable to top the dps off', I meant they were unable to max the buff on the dps. Sorry for the confusion on the verbiage.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
We have all three of our people call it out separately; in any case the totem needs to be 50% and near dying a couple seconds after it spawns, and it needs to die under 10 seconds of the initial spawn. Either way, the DPS in the totem should see if the people are falling in.

Which DPS are you prioritizing going into the Spirit Realm? If adds aren't dying, you want to prioritize multidotters, etc, that can wipe out all those adds quickly.


We've been prioritizing the spriest and the mage. We also have the rogue go in when they start stacking up for the cleave since he's our strongest dps.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13390
Well, in my 10-man, we don't prioritize any DPS, and in fact, we use an add-on called GarajalAnnounce to call out whose turn it is to enter the Spirit Realm, so the DPS all rotate in over the fight.

Though our group has been kind of unstable, and has forced us to PUG 1-2 members of late, our core team is as follows...

2 Prot Pally tanks
1 Mistweaver (me)
1 Disc/Holy Priest (switches depending on fight, but is Disc for Gara'Jal)
1 Holy Pally
1 Frost DK
1 Fire Mage
1 Fury Warrior
2 PUG DPS...

I know from our experience, I can get the buff maxed (or up to at least 18%) on both DPS well within 20 seconds of entering the Spirit Realm. Our Priest can usually do the same. The Holy Pally has struggled in the past, but I think that's more of a gear issue, as both the Priest and I out-gear the Holy Pally by a decent margin.

As far as add management, it came down to the DPS worrying more about damaging as many adds as possible without neccessarily killing them, rather than picking a target and making sure it's dead. Then again, we run a fairly melee-heavy group. Perhaps your DPS could also try this strategy and focus more on getting many adds to low HP rather than focusing on them one-at-a-time.

Also remember that your tanks can DPS the adds as well as long as they can manage to kill their Severer in time to not die themselves. This helps in that if your DPS get many adds to low health, the Tanks can then go around and finish a bunch of them off before killing his/her own Severer of Souls.

Other than that, the only other advice I can really offer at this point is that if/when your Healers get to the point where they can get the buff up high, they should be able to throw a few heals on whichever Tank was just Banished. While the heals themselves won't be needed, the fact that Tanks get the same buff as the DPS means that the Tanks can then DPS their Severer all the faster, and use the extra time to either help kill adds, or add some extra DPS to Gara'Jal.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
I had a guildy point something out that I had looked over.

Up until now I've always assumed that the adds that spawn in fixed intervals and you use the spirit totems to go in and kill them (similar to the twins).

However, another interpretation of the earlier comment is that the spirits only spawn while the totems are up, can someone confirm that? I've looked around and haven't seen anything in the various strategy guides, and it's something we'll be testing, but confirmation here would be good as well.
Edited by Rvalue on 11/25/2012 2:43 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7675
Its easily killable with 3 heals.

For shaman ... i dont really know.
For paladin , let me beacon one , heal the other and himself and make sure both that are with him are full and have the button , he should leave ( since your 2 healing ) that shaman probably cant handle 7 people alone.
And make a rotation on who should stay alot and who should leave as fast as he can ( gets the button )
For my guild we let melee Leave as fast as they get the button and keep the ranged ( if a ranged got down ) stay for the last 15-20 sec.
And for healer .. they should leave once everyone has the button.

Btw i havent read any replies so i may have said things again , sorry :)

Edit: Sorry... ,about the debuff they get , Flash heals does the job , tell them to keep there mana safe for the zone and if needed just pop mana CD's for when they go down , so they wouldn't worry about using Super fast heals and drain their mana.
Edited by Vánilla on 11/25/2012 6:10 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13390
Whether extra adds spawn once Gara'Jal spawns totems, I don't know, but I can for certain tell you that adds will start spawning, and therefore start shooting the raid, well before the first totem has spawned.

You can easily tell this because each add in the Spirit Realm wears a corresponding tiki mask that is visible in the Normal Realm. The more tiki masks you see, the more adds there are.
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Its easily killable with 3 heals.

For shaman ... i dont really know.
For paladin , let me beacon one , heal the other and himself and make sure both that are with him are full and have the button , he should leave ( since your 2 healing ) that shaman probably cant handle 7 people alone.
And make a rotation on who should stay alot and who should leave as fast as he can ( gets the button )
For my guild we let melee Leave as fast as they get the button and keep the ranged ( if a ranged got down ) stay for the last 15-20 sec.
And for healer .. they should leave once everyone has the button.

Btw i havent read any replies so i may have said things again , sorry :)

Edit: Sorry... ,about the debuff they get , Flash heals does the job , tell them to keep there mana safe for the zone and if needed just pop mana CD's for when they go down , so they wouldn't worry about using Super fast heals and drain their mana.


Gotta have pretty high dps for 3 heals though, 2 healing is plenty easy and that extra dps can easily make a difference. Also, I find that when 3 healing, it gets hectic when deciding which healer should go down, it's easier with two healers since you can just say that whichever healer didn't get dolled can go down.

Anyway, if the OP is having problems with healers not maximizing the dps buff, I'm going to assume that they're hitting the enrage timer.

Instead of always sending the same 2 people down, I would rotate. My guild assigns two pairs of dps, and then a first and second alternate in case one of the assigned people gets Voodoo Doll. So for the first totem, it's usually me and the Mage, and for the second totem, it's the Rogue and the other Shadow Priest. The other Rogue and the DK will sub in if people get Voodoo Doll. As for healers, we just send down whichever healer doesn't have Voodoo Doll, it's easy enough to one heal, especially with the buff.

The key is to maximize uptime on the boss of people with the buff, and if you keep sending the buffed people down, they won't be dpsing the boss enough and you'll hit the enrage timer. We make sure that the same person doesn't go down twice in a row unless it's an emergency.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7675
11/25/2012 07:20 AMPosted by Flintte
Gotta have pretty high dps for 3 heals though, 2 healing is plenty easy and that extra dps can easily make a difference. Also, I find that when 3 healing, it gets hectic when deciding which healer should go down, it's easier with two healers since you can just say that whichever healer didn't get dolled can go down.


We killed him the 2nd week of MSV , so we had Dungeon gear, we go him down with 3 healers and we were 10sec ( pretty sure less ) away from enrage timer.
I only popped my wings to DPS lol.
Basically at the beginning try to get as much DPS going until the first voodoo.

Edit: why would you find 3 healing hectic? i find it a much safe option for the first kill. ( unless its elegon )
Edited by Vánilla on 11/25/2012 8:01 AM PST
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11/25/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Vánilla
Gotta have pretty high dps for 3 heals though, 2 healing is plenty easy and that extra dps can easily make a difference. Also, I find that when 3 healing, it gets hectic when deciding which healer should go down, it's easier with two healers since you can just say that whichever healer didn't get dolled can go down.


We killed him the 2nd week of MSV , so we had Dungeon gear, we go him down with 3 healers and we were 10sec ( pretty sure less ) away from enrage timer.
I only popped my wings to DPS lol.
Basically at the beginning try to get as much DPS going until the first voodoo.

Edit: why would you find 3 healing hectic? i find it a much safe option for the first kill. ( unless its elegon )


The actual healing isn't hectic, it's of course easier with 3 people than 2. But switching into the spirit realm feels more hectic to me with three healers because of trying to coordinate who goes down next instead of just "I have voodoo doll, other healer goes. Other healer has voodoo doll, I go". Though that's just based on how coordinated your raid group is. I agree that 3 healing is usually a safer option, but lately, my raid has been having problems with hitting enrage timers even while 2 healing (just got Spirit Kings down last several seconds after enrage). Healing hasn't been a problem with us so far, though I usually go heals for Stone Guard since dps isn't as much of an issue.

Our dps is probably crappy; we did have a PuG warlock last night that did literally 1/3 of my total damage done on Spirit Kings, so it all depends on how your dps is.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
11/25/2012 07:20 AMPosted by Flintte
Anyway, if the OP is having problems with healers not maximizing the dps buff, I'm going to assume that they're hitting the enrage timer.


We're getting overwhelmed with the adds at about 40%, to the point where the healers can't keep up.

11/25/2012 10:11 AMPosted by Sparklefever
No. Common sense will tell you otherwise; Gara'jal still keeps spam spawning adds in his last Frenzy phase when there are no totems at all. Kind of acts as a soft enrage.


Having never made it to the last 20%, I've not been able to notice that. It was just an observation I wanted to verify in case it meant that a simple strategy change could help us out.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7750
Gara'jal is really more about add control than healing throughput. If adds get out of control, then you'll end up fighting a losing battle trying to keep people alive in the physical realm, forcing your healers to leave the spirit realm with low stacks.

We run two healers as a single DPS (spriest) "rotation" down into the spirit realm, where the spriest would wait until the last second to come back up for air to minimize the chances of being dolled. This cleared up a few things for us: 1) the spriest was at full stacks very early on the fight, so he obliterates the adds until the 20% enrage and 2) healers could stack and maintain Spiritual Innervation buffs much more easily with only two targets to heal. Even with heroic blue gear, our spriest was able to keep the add count down singlehandedly. Our hunter was the back-up DPS in case the Spriest got dolled between tank switches.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17325
I find this one of the easiest of the new fights.

We 2 heal it, resto druid / holy pally.

It's about DPS going down and killing the adds.

I call out either me or the other healer to go down(depending on who can't cause of voodoo), and 2 dps, and they keep those adds good and dead!

If there isn't many adds up downstairs, there isn't much damage upstairs to heal.

And swapping between the healers going down - you never run out of mana(a PLUS for me as a resto druid!)

3 healing it would seem harder to me.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12490
11/23/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Rvalue
What options do pally's have?

As a Paladin who duo healed Gara'jal with a Disc priest, here's what I have to say:

Our first kill of this boss on my Paladin was when my Paladin was ~460 ilevel, using Heroic Blues and PvP gear. Reforging was Spirit > Mastery > Haste. Gemming was Spirit > everything.

When not in the Spirit World, I would Beacon the tank and focus Holy Lights/Holy Radiance (Glyphed) on Vodoo'd DPS. Tanks would generally be ok with Beacon heals. Spirit World Consisted of 2 DPS and a healer. When I would go down, I put beacon of Light on 1 DPS and Flash of Light the other. Holy Shock myself. When I got 3 holy power, I put Etenral Flame on the lower health DPS. I had no problems getting myself and the 2 DPS to full health with just Flash of Light, Holy Shock, and Eternal Flame. My goal was to get the DPS the max number of stacks. On occasion, I would Lay on Hands or mage to give him 100% and full stacks of the damage buff in order to let him click out and do more damage to the boss.

A link to my logs of our first kill is here:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-c00yxwg884ml9aw7/sum/healingDone/?s=3762&e=4104

Keep in mind that it's inaccurate to look at anyone besides me since I did the logging and Spirit World screws with other people in my combat log.

edit: Reading a little more into this post (this page), I am going to say it won't be possible to constantly max the damage buff on both players. 22 stacks is the max. To max it on 1 player alone, that is a heal every 1.3 seconds. To max it on 2 players, you need to heal them every .7 seconds. A good number to aim is to get both players around 16 stacks.

You do mention that sometimes DPS die in the Spirit World. If healers aren't having a problem topping people off, why do DPS die?
Edited by Comb on 11/25/2012 6:19 PM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
They died when the healers attempted to spam their smallest heal, and so I believe they may still be using their slower heals to prevent that from happening.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12520
they don't need to do anything but spam their fast expensive heal. that's it.

go down, and simply don't stop casting that fast expensive heal. spammy spammy spammy and get back to the normal realm and enjoy the full mana bar for the next 20 seconds or so

this is all you need to do to win the fight on normal mode in 5man heroic blues, let alone the gear you have

after that, you can work on getting better stacks of the buff for heroic mode if you want, but you don't need it for normal
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90 Pandaren Monk
13240
11/25/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Rvalue
We're getting overwhelmed with the adds at about 40%, to the point where the healers can't keep up.


There might still be some healing issues to work out, but it sounds like your biggest concern should be dps. Outside of making sure your dps know what they're doing, make sure the tanks are helping. The tank has more than enough time to work on adds before destroying the one that keeps him in the spirit realm, and when he first enters he has a fat stack of vengeance. When I go in I locate the big one (can't remember it's name). If it is close I get him down under 20%, then kill as many adds as I can before finishing him off. If he's far I kill adds on the way to him. Either way, the tank should be staying in the spirit realm as long as possible before killing the big guy.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
I agree that we need to be killing more of the adds.

This is specifically why I'm concerned with maximizing the buff. Not for dps on the boss, for dps on the adds.

The buff is not getting anywhere near maxed, and that will represent a significant increase in dps, so that's what I'm fixing first.

Once that's fixed, if we're still struggling, then I'll start looking at the dps. But for now, getting that buff going atleast *somewhat* well is the easiest way for us to to help fix the dps issue.
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