healing Gara'jal (pally and shaman)

5 Human Warlock
0
11/25/2012 09:07 PMPosted by Rvalue
They died when the healers attempted to spam their smallest heal, and so I believe they may still be using their slower heals to prevent that from happening.


Huh? Why would they use small heals?

There's an addon called GarajalInnervation that might help your healers in the spirit realm. Basically you need to not just get them to full health but you need to overheal them to the maximum extent possible in order to maximize their buff. Tell your healers to read some of the strategy guides.
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Do your healers not now how to switch between targets? You have 28 seconds in the spirit realm. If someone dies because a healer uses fast heals, then something is horribly wrong.

Or are they just using the wrong spells? Healing surge and flash of light are the ones you can use for real fast healing.

Are they only focusing on themselves or one person? Are they not hitting the button before the timer is up?

The easiest way to fix dps issues is to fix dps. You can only count on the buff for this fight.
Edited by Cylia on 11/27/2012 8:45 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
It's been mentioned again but I'll reiterate -- you do not need to maximize the buff. You do need to pick the dps that can blow up those adds. The buff does not make that significant of a dps boost as to make it critical.

I've gone back and read this thread and honestly, it seems like the focus is on the healers when it sounds like your dps is just low. You're not even getting to the 20% frenzy point which means you're significantly under dps-wise. You are focusing on the absence of maximizing the buff as why but that really isn't a cause for wiping. Did you post a log for the fights? I'd like to see what your dps numbers are.
Edited by Rainstorms on 11/27/2012 9:21 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
15630
http://i.imgur.com/KU6dw.jpg

That's all the healing it takes to get someone to a reasonable (20+) stack: around 100K or so overheal. That's like 1/4 of someone's health pool when buffed.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12325
Unless your healers literally aren't casting and fundamentally don't understand the concept of "spam heals", there is almost no challenge for a healer inside of the spirit realm and no way they could be failing. Either your healers are unfathomably stupid (seriously) or DPS are leaving the realm early, which could also explain why you're being overwhelmed by adds way too early in the fight. Even if your healers are "bad" as opposed to "stupid" they'd heal stupidly and get more than a 2-5% buff on the DPS. I suppose the healers could be leaving early as well, but that constitutes "stupid" as well.

And DPS should be able to clean up the adds just fine even if the healers are totally fail. 5% buff versus 15-20% makes a big difference for 30 seconds of sustained boss DPS, but should make almost no difference when it comes to bursting down adds. So long as no one messes up totems, my guild often has one or two spirit realms where the DPS literally have NO adds to kill for 10-15 seconds and just leave early.

Short short version: Unless your healers are stupid enough to not understand the simplest mechanic ever "SPAM HEALS!", it's most likely a DPS issue in some way/shape/form. Based on your problems, my best guess is that DPS are leaving the spirit realm early.
Edited by Sacrémorte on 11/27/2012 11:23 AM PST
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6 Worgen Druid
0
if your dps cant do that fight w/o the buff you have no business being there and should finish getting geared
Edited by Dayandknight on 11/27/2012 11:24 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
This doesn't really sound like a healer issue to me.
I personally beacon myself as I'm waiting for the totem to go down, then I heal up our highest dps (as in who does more dmg) and he jumps out, then I heal the second dps at my leisure and by then I'm full health. I pop out while the other dps stays in for the full 30 secs or when all the adds are dead.

I don't even use my FoL on this fight. HS, IoL procs and EF are more than enough to handle it in a timely manner.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
I can see I've gotten all the value out of this thread I'm going to get.

For the ones who have actually tried to help with advice about the healing mechanic, thank you, I appreciate it.

For those that think my approach should be to wait until my dps are strong enough so the healers don't need to deal with the mechanic. You've devalued this thread, and I cannot thank you for it.

*when* we start doing the mechanics properly, then I'll start worrying about the strength of the dps.

I had planned on posting WoL, but the hostility towards a raid group you know nothing about is already too high, I will not fan those flames.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
Well all I can say is I'm glad I'm not a healer on your raid team. Your reaction is a bit over the top and as someone has pointed out, if your healers are the problem they'd have to be sleeping at the keyboard. Gara is not a healing fight, it's a dps check. The buff will not make or break your raids' ability to down this boss.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
You should have seen the beating I gave my healers when I tanked madness naked and they kept letting me die. One of them had the gall to tell me I should put my gear back on, said healer has never spoken out of turn again.

But now you've made me angry Rainstorms, which generally means another random beating for one of my healers (I have 3, so my approach is to flip a coin twice, I feel like, if you lose to random chance twice, you deserve a beating). So be happy with yourself Rainstorms, that beating is your fault.

I've found it improves the morale of my dps when the healers are cowering in a corner.

Which reminds me.

Hey Rainstorms, what do you call a healer with a black eye? A good listener.

Rainstorms, what do you say to a healer with 2 black eyes? Nothing, you've already told them twice.

Hey Rainstorms, what's the name of that useless skin around a healing spell? It's called a healer.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
Did I make you see red? :D
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7675
wow.. Rainstorms was giving advice and tell you that its a DPS check.
If you don't care about DPS now .. when will you?
You do realise your 2 healing it too.

Edit: Just saw what you said about not caring about DPS now.
Theres no mechanic in the fight, keep Melee DPS down the least time ( spirit world ) and keep ranged down most for Adds , Healers up once they are sure both DPS got the Button.
Edited by Vánilla on 11/28/2012 8:00 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11865
Not sure if thread is srs. If not serious, then you've demonstrated that a significant portion of the people reading and responding to threads on the forums lack reading comprehension. Congratulations and welcome to the internet.

If it is serious, however, you're taking an approach to the fight that is pretty backwards.

Healers should minimize their time in the spirit realm by healing themselves and the dps to full and immediately leaving. They can overheal a small amount to help with buff stacks, but that is generally not the priority - healing difficulty in the spirit realm pales in comparison to that in the normal realm and it is far better to return early, so as to relieve pressure on the other healer(s).

Dps should be staying down until either (1)adds are mostly clear, or (2)they are forced to leave before the timer kills them. Having them leave as soon as they are able makes it impossible for healers to increase the stacking buff and also allows the adds to pile up, which will wipe you.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
11/28/2012 07:34 AMPosted by Rainstorms
Did I make you see red? :D


I suppose my southern humor is lost on some folks.

they are forced to leave before the timer kills them. Having them leave as soon as they are able makes it impossible for healers to increase the stacking buff and also allows the adds to pile up, which will wipe you.


Quote me stating we've been having the dps leave early.

When you can't find it, I expect an apology.

We need more dps in the spirit realm. The healers can give the dps a buff, but they're not. We're trying to fix that.

Telling me it's a dps check, but that we don't need the dps buff is just assinine, and I cannot fathom how anyone can make such a claim without feeling stupid.

I've seen some really awesome advice, and we definitely have a lot of things to try. OTOH, true to the wow community, I've seen some jackanapes who would do well to stop speaking with an air of authority.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12520
11/27/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Rvalue
For those that think my approach should be to wait until my dps are strong enough so the healers don't need to deal with the mechanic. You've devalued this thread, and I cannot thank you for it.


as was explained, the spiritual innervation buff is not the make/break of this fight particularly on normal. balancing the adds and dps uptime on the boss is.

from the information you've provided, you have a dps issue more than a healing issue, if there's a healing issue at all. you haven't killed the boss - but several of us who've replied have, multiple times. As one of those people, I'm telling you (again) that all your healers need to do is go down and spam their fast expensive heal on themselves and the two dps, and that's it. there's nothing more required on normal. just doing this will give the healer enough mana regen to go back up and deal with voodoo dolls and give the dps plenty of boost to do their job

the rest is up to the dps - they should be clearing all the adds each time they go down, if they're not, this is why you end up having issues with people dying in or coming out of the spirit realm, and why you have too much raid damage at the end

end of story
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
11/28/2012 07:35 PMPosted by Goatblezi
from the information you've provided, you have a dps issue more than a healing issue, if there's a healing issue at all. you haven't killed the boss - but several of us who've replied have, multiple times. As one of those people, I'm telling you (again) that all your healers need to do is go down and spam their fast expensive heal on themselves and the two dps, and that's it. there's nothing more required on normal. just doing this will give the healer enough mana regen to go back up and deal with voodoo dolls and give the dps plenty of boost to do their job


What got me looking at the buff in the first place was the raid leader of another guild on our server who told me the buff was the key, and it was what pushed them to down him w/i 2 attempts of them realizing the buff could be stacked (I didn't realize it initially either).

Did I mention that raid leader was a priest healer?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1206479-Gara-jal-the-Spiritbinder/page2

We 3 healed it, and killed as many mobs as possible when in the spirit world.
The trick is stacking the buff as high as possible. We had a couple of 10% wipes, because healers topped off the people in the spirit realm, then stopp healing to regen mana.
Once they started to get people to 22% on the buff, then just refresh it before we left, we killed it in one go. (Well.. two.. One dps lagged out sub 20% so we wiped at 0%)


Maybe you should go have a word with this poster and tell them their observation that it was the buff stacking that allowed them to push through is necessarily wrong.

Perhaps I should not have done research outside of the healing board to make sure I wasn't barking up the wrong tree first. It's possible that me pulling the raid leader of a guild that's known to have the boss on farm before coming to these boards was just a silly, idiotic thing to do.

But I did it, and so I don't believe you when you tell me the buff is inconsequential, and I will not believe you until you can give me something a little more solid than "I downed it, so I know".

It is more likely you have a strong dps squad and you don't even realize just how that affects the strategies you can take because you heal rather than formulate strategies for your group.

There have been a lot of suggestions on these boards for things we can do to help the dps kill the adds multi-dotting, having the tanks concentrate on adds that are about dead, using a strategy of rolling kills rather than trying to kill everything in one go.

We will be trying all of these things.

We will also be concentrating on getting that buff up, and I can tell you now, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that isn't the correct approach to us figuring out how to down this boss.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12520
the fact that someone might be wrong doesn't necessarily make them idiotic

did you take into consideration that they 3-healed it? your post however implied you're 2-healing it, like we did too

they also mention that they 'killed as many mobs as possible when in the spirit world' - this also is a mistake, because it's not necessary and takes away from dps uptime on the boss - you only need to kill enough that the raid damage isn't unhealable, then get back to the normal realm and dps the boss. this, coupled with the fact that the 3-healed it would be far greater factors in their boss dps than the spiritual innervation buff

incidentally, I don't think that you're taking the incorrect approach at all - I'm just responding to your curt replies to some of the other people that are telling you that you have a dps issue. what you're trying to do now for normal mode will almost certainly benefit you on heroic later so it's definitely not a waste of time - all I'm saying is that strictly speaking in the context of normal mode, in order to get the kill now you don't need to focus on it - you have room for improvement in other areas that are bigger than the spiritual innervation mechanic.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11865
Quote me stating we've been having the dps leave early.

When you can't find it, I expect an apology.


Just to be clear, they're getting them topped off, and the dps are leaving[...]

This is probably what I misinterpreted. Sorry.

I can't really fathom being overrun by the adds by 40% at this point in the expansion, though - it sounds like your dps is either undergeared or underperforming, or people are taking too long to get into the spirit realm. Do you ever have two totems up at the same time? (If yes, then it's more an issue of taking too long to get into the realm in the first place, which can either be caused by taking too long to group around the totem, or taking too long to kill it).

The buff itself isn't inconsequential, per se, but an additional 20% of "far lower than it should be" might well still be too low. I think the problem some of us are having in our response to you is that you're placing the onus of resolving this issue on the healers, when it would be more effectively solved by having your dps step up or be replaced. That's not to say that your healers can't contribute to your dps improving, and I agree that they should do what they can to that ends.

In any case, looking to your healers to solve your problems on garajal may help you get it down, but it doesn't address the underlying issue with your dps, and it will rise again when you get to elegon.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
No I got your sense of humor, hence the 'see red' comment to an angry bull. ;)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12325
All, or nearly all, of the adds in the spirit realm should still be dead when the boss is at 40%. You *might* conceivably have a healing issue as well, but you DEFINITELY have a DPS issue.

I used somewhat aggressive wording above because healing the spirit realm is probably the second easiest healing mechanic in all of MSV. (Not counting phase transition lulls in damage, certain combinations of normal mode Spirit Kings require virtually zero heals for seriously half the fight.) If you've gotten to Gara'jal, your healers should be competent and capable enough to heal the spirit realm in their sleep.
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