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And had they just 2 healed it they probably wouldn't have had any wipes. If your healers aren't stacking the debuff that is a mechanics failure. That said the buff doesn't have to be astronomically high to down the boss. If you are wiping pre-frenzy it seems more like a mechanics failure on your dps. Even without the buff they should be clearing most of the adds.
If the healers aren't spam healing they are either confused on the mechanic or just lazy. A super high buff stack shouldn't be required to down this guy though. If you are needing your dps with maxed buff stacks to down him your dps is low and needs work and you are going to have issues beyond him.
The buff itself isn't inconsequential, per se, but an additional 20% of "far lower than it should be" might well still be too low. I think the problem some of us are having in our response to you is that you're placing the onus of resolving this issue on the healers
That's your personal bias, this is what I said, emphasis mine:
I *know* the add management is a problem, they're not all dying, but I also know that the healers aren't getting the buff stacked, and since that helps dpsing the adds, I feel like I need to try and solve that issue first. I'm open to any suggestions, I'm just explaining my rationale for looking at the healers first.
Part of the issue is that we're struggling to kill the adds, so my solution at this point is to get the buff going for the dps on the inside. If it's still an issue, then we'll have something else to fix.
The buff is not getting anywhere near maxed, and that will represent a significant increase in dps, so that's what I'm fixing first.
What part of this communicated to you that I'm putting the onus purely on the healers for this fight?
Did anyone ever stop to consider that *no one* is getting that buff very high. Think about what *no one* implies.
And if I were to point you to the Original Post and tell you the entire point of this thread was to try and allay any confusion about the mechanics, you would come up with some other reason why I'm wrong, so why bother?
Holy frick. First ..... sexist jokes are not funny. I'm gonna leave it at that.
Secondly. The DPS that go down to get the buff DO NOT DO MORE DAMAGE TO THE BOSS than the ones who just stay on the boss. The DPS buff makes up for the time spent in the spirit realm -- so the DPS that go down spend less time on the boss, but do more damage in that time.
Third. THEREFORE, it's not important to send your best DPS down to get the buff. Instead, send down the DPS that are best at handling adds -- killing them quickly, and keeping them off the healer. Suggestions:
Hunter -- multi-dot, pet-tank.
Boomkin -- Multi-dot and/or fake-tank in bear form
DK - Multi-dot and/or fake-tank in blood spec
Spriest - multi-dot, off-heal.
However, it's more important that your DPS be skilled and on the ball. If some of them PVP on the side, they'll do a better job at this.
Fourth. The healers should know how to burst their HPS while they're down there. Reading Dayani's write-up is a great idea. The short version is that you spam big, fast, direct heals, and avoid using cooldowns because not all of them generate stacks. Tips:
a) using Lay on Hands will instantly max the buff.
b) when you know you're going into the spirit realm, bank your resources and tools ahead of time. (HoPo - Tidal waves - whatever.)
c) The shaman should use TW on GHW. Use HS if he doesn't have a TW charge.
d) The shaman should not use HST in the spirit realm, but he should use Searing Totem to help kill adds faster.
Most importantly, overheal like crazy to get the buff up.
The easiest way to fix the dps issue is for your dps to fix itself first so you don't have to rely on the buff to get you through.
Listen, I had someone once tell me my build for prot warrior was bad because I wasn't stacking what they thought I should stack (been playing prot warrior since vanilla, they were wrong).
When I disagreed with them, they told me heroic blackhorn would 1 shot me. Guess which heroic boss I collected loot from that very night?
This angst has more to do with the fact that I won't take advice that doesn't make sense to me without a good argument for it.
It really is that simple. There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, and a lot of bad advice. I consider 'magic wand your dps to do enough so your healers can ignore the mechanic' to be bad advice.
I could very well set my goal to increase our dps by 10-20%.
And I would hit that goal. Eventually.
But certainly not by next week or the week after, and definitely not without upsetting the morale/cohesion of my raid group.
I guess what I'm saying is give me good advice and I'll be more than happy to follow through with it. But telling me I need more dps isn't really actionable, nor is it something that can be changed quickly, or without a significant effect on my raid group.
And my personality is such that you can talk until you're blue in the face, without good, hard evidence, or an argument that's based on something other than nebulous doom and gloom about what may happen down the road, you have very little chance of changing my mind.
Edited by Rvalue on 11/29/2012 5:07 PM PST
If the healers aren't spam healing they are either confused on the mechanic or just lazy.
And in the first reply I pointed out what your healers should be doing. The absolute bottom line here is your dps should NOT be requiring that buff to be maxed to get a kill.
If you are worried about working on dps and it impacting your morale/cohesion of your raid group Elegon is going to give you a nasty wake up if your dps is struggling here.
But you've set your feet and aren't wanting to listen or post logs to get any real pointers on what is actually the underlying issue, so have fun.
Edited by Necai on 11/29/2012 7:48 PM PST
While this will build up stacks more quickly than not using GoAK due to the Haste buff that GoAK applies, the guardian's splash healing does not stack the buff at all, so IMO this is better off used "upstairs" in the last 20% to heal the raid through the now-unkillable-adds' damage. Obviously with perfect execution and luck you could use it twice in the fight - once downstairs in the very first totem phase and then again upstairs in the last 20 sec or so of the fight - but I personally wouldn't risk it ;)
Avenging Wrath or Divine Favor are excellent for healing in the Spirit Realm though, I split them up so I have a cooldown available each time I go down.
Some where under what is required to down Gara'jal and that is all that matters.
And incoming edit information:
On the one log I can find where you managed to hit the enrage the boss was barely below 50% and using it as an example;
As a raid you guys are doing ~210k DPS (looking at the one log you have where you managed to reach the enrage timer). You'd need 325k raid DPS to down Gara'jal at the enrage timer (ignoring adds).
Your top DPS is doing 50k, your lowest is doing ~30k (your hunter) which is actually just barely above your priest healer (29k). Since you are using a 3 heal setup you'd have better luck dropping to a two heal and putting one of your healers as a dps. While I doubt that one switch will get you to the required raid DPS it'll get you closer. Just make certain that the two healers you leave as healers aren't incompetent and can handle the buff stacking/general healing required.
On that topic, 30k DPS is beyond unacceptable for raiding, it's low even for a 5 man dungeon.
If you think the issue is the lack of buff stacking it isn't. Your DPS is just not there. That needs to be fixed. While your healers may be failing at stacking the buff to an adequate level all it is doing is exasperating the underlying issue that your DPS needs work.
A 20% increase to your raid's damage would be at best 252k DPS (which also implies a complete raid group wide 20% damage buff) which is still way below where you need to be.
Edited by Necai on 12/1/2012 3:39 PM PST
Just bomb fast heals on yourself to get your regen started then start bombing FoL on the dps that are in with you.
FOL is pretty bad for this as a paladin. You want to use your big heal, not your fast heal. Your big heal will top them off faster.
Also, Lay on hands is awesome here.
LOH the highest dps. Then use your standard healing priority to get yourself and then the dps up. FOL is not better heals per minute. Just isnt. Divine light + wog is better.
I made a spreadsheet for this, and according to my calculations, for my Holy Paladin's gear level (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/dathremar/Marjaneh/advanced) + relevant raid buffs:
Flash of Light
1.23sec cast time
45403 healing (excluding Crit and Mastery)
36913 healing per second
2,214,780 healing per minute
2.04sec cast time
60463 healing (excluding Crit and Mastery)
29638 healing per second
1,778,280 healing per minute
Both have the same Crit chance and apply the same proportion of Mastery shielding, so those will not change the fact that Flash of Light is better healing per second or healing per minute than Divine Light. Both also transfer the same proportion of Beacon of Light healing so I have left that out too.
Now, Divine Light with an Infusion of Light proc is more healing per second, so I would definitely advise to spend your IoL procs on Divine Light in the Spirit Realm. But for cranking out fast stacks and topping people off more quickly, Flash of Light IMO is the way to go.
This analysis does not factor in the Glyph of Flash of Light, which I would run for this encounter, and which would make Flash of Light even stronger.
[Edited to add in raid buffs to the calculations]
Edited by Dayani on 12/1/2012 7:37 PM PST
Some where under what is required to down Gara'jal and that is all that matters.
You owe me an apology, we downed Gara'jal monday 3 healing.
According to you we were atleast 35% under the necessary dps, 40% if you include breathing room and 'including the adds' as you put it. Did we increase our dps by 35-40% over the couse of 2 weeks?
I suppose my rousing speech before the last pull may have convinced everyone to hit their keys harder, but I find it more likely our mechanics changes did the trick.
For those that are curious, these are the changes we made
1. tanks concentrated on applying bleeds to groups and killing the low hanging fruit.
2. dps concentrated on mult-dotting in lieu of outright killing
3. healers concentrated on getting that buff up on the dps inside.
4. Left our melee on the boss (damage done > dps)
5. Sent the same dps into the spirit world, with assigned backups. dps C goes in if dps A is totemed, dps D goes in if dps B is totemed. Worked extremely well for coordination, and it allowed us to keep our top dps on the boss for most of the fight. It also meant decisions were being made a lot faster, so we were getting into the spirit world quicker
6. Had our hunter dps the totem down to < 50% every time. Chose the hunter because they can move and attack effectively, so they're not hampered if they're moving to the totem.
7. Talked !@#$ about Necai
If I seem snarky it's because it gets old having to deal with people who want to speak from a position of authority that they obviously do not have. As always, I value expertise over blustering about the boogy man that is Elegon.
Many of you will recognize some of the strategy changes as coming directly from this thread, this thread has been extremely helpful in us getting Gara'jal down, so I want to thank everyone who actually gave advice rather than FUD.
We got a few pulls in on the next boss, if we don't down him next week I'll be sad and amazed. At one point due to mistakes, we had both of our healers die, and then the dps started dropping off. We lasted 1.5 'bosses' with no healer strictly due to our chickenbird throwing out off heals and 2nd wind. The puddle add things overwhelmed us as we just didn't have the dps for it, but that pull tells me we should be ok downing the 4th boss in MSV :)
I really do want that apology Necai.
Glad to see that you've downed Gara'Jal.
Yeah... Spirit Kings is a lot like Stone Gaurd imo... It's not a DPS/Healer/Gear check so much as a raid awareness/stupid check.
The reason your raid lasted as long as it did against Spirit Kings without healers was because the damage output of the first 3 Kings is either healable by a single healer, or completely avoidable. Up until Meng, no one should ever drop below half health because the abilities that actually hit hard enough to do so can be totally avoided. Now, Meng himself is actually kind of healing intensive, but that is due to his Crazed/Cowardice mechanic. Also, Maddening Shout will leave your raid members in danger or dead if you break it too hard/late.
Oh, and you should probably warn your raid that if Meng is in Cowardice mode and a Maddening Shout goes out, that they should stop DPS, else they will kill themselves and the Healers won't be able to do !@#$ about it...
Honestly, from the few pulls we got in, it felt like that fight belongs in a heroic 5-man, but atleast it's fun watching the chickenbird get pinned to the ground, lol.
I bite my thumb at thee.
Edited by Rvalue on 12/5/2012 12:03 PM PST
the stuff necai said was correct, your raw dps was too low regardless of spiritual innervation
it's common knowledge that it can be either 2 or 3 healed, so his advice to drop to two heals wasn't at all wrong - it's the most obvious change to make on a fight that can be 2-healed, when you're hitting the enrage with 3 heals.
the fact that you killed it with 3 heals simply means your fixed your dps. grats. and according to your own post, the stacks of spiritual innervation were used mainly on adds anyway
it's you that owes the apology if anything - no idea why you post with such a stick in your rear
I'm picturing The Little Engine that Could... I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...
Congratulations on your kill. :D
Spirit Kings is all about staying out of stuff and coordination on Meng. I believe the order is now set which helps a lot since it appears Meng is now always 3rd. It was very irritating to get him 2nd and have to deal with Maddening Shout for the next two bosses. Now Elegon...that guy requires all three aspects of raiding to be solid. Raid awareness/coordination, dps and healing checks. We 2-heal him and if you can 3-heal him I'd be truly amazed. Must keep us updated on your progress with that boss. :)
Aww. I find it cute that you were so taken back by me pointing out issues in your raid group that you needed to take personal attacks. Kudos to you.
I can assure you that will never happen. I don't care if I just ran over your mom, your cat, and your dog at the same time an apology from me to you is the last thing that will happen.
Have fun on Elegon.
Edited by Necai on 12/6/2012 10:23 AM PST
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