JoinBattlefield, Post 5.1? PART 2

100 Human Priest
19640
12/04/2012 09:27 AMPosted by Xaeva
No, I don't. I think their 'playstyle' is lazy and self-centered.


What is lazy and self-centered about it?
It's an easy win for you and a waste of time for your opponent. A) is lazy, B) is selfish.
12/04/2012 09:33 AMPosted by Xaeva
Sure. There've been quite a few posted about on the forums. Most of those threads have been deleted since. But that's actually beside the point; if you play in a 40 man premade, you always win unless you face another one. That isn't how Blizzard has said they want the game to work. They don't want 40 man premades to be mandatory to enjoy a casual pvp option


Oh now it is a "casual pvp option".
When did PVP become "casual"?
Never mind don't bother to answer.
It doesn't matter anymore.
The "Rules" around here are changing faster than in-game.
Isn't it? It's more casual than rateds, surely?
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12535
12/04/2012 09:37 AMPosted by Cylthia
It's an easy win for you and a waste of time for your opponent. A) is lazy, B) is selfish.


This sounds a lot like running Looking for Raids.

Isn't the main complaint the random person has about using the "casual pvp option" is it is NOT easy enough to win?

Either way, someone has to lose, and "waste" their time as you put it.
You prefer it be us?
So if we go back to being stomped by the alliance like it has been for the past 5-6 years, we are good people again, right? Don't bother actually wasting time and effort to think up ways to fight back, work out stratagies, or spend months and years trying to get a community together to fight against the mindless zerg. Just fall in line like good little bots and quit being selfish and let these poor misunderstood "casual PVP'ers" get their wins!!
Let QueQue and other like them go back to making their money selling carries. After all, PVP is not a "real" option in this game fools, it's only for the Elitists that can get the Rated Titles, and Tournament Standing, not us. WTH were we thinking!
100 Human Priest
19640
12/04/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Xaeva
It's an easy win for you and a waste of time for your opponent. A) is lazy, B) is selfish.


This sounds a lot like running Looking for Raids.

Isn't the main complaint the random person has about using the "casual pvp option" is it is NOT easy enough to win?

Either way, someone has to lose, and "waste" their time as you put it.
You prefer it be us?
So if we go back to being stomped by the alliance like it has been for the past 5-6 years, we are good people again, right? Don't bother actually wasting time and effort to think up ways to fight back, work out stratagies, or spend months and years trying to get a community together to fight against the mindless zerg. Just fall in line like good little bots and quit being selfish and let these poor misunderstood "casual PVP'ers" get their wins!!
Let QueQue and other like them go back to making their money selling carries. After all, PVP is not a "real" option in this game fools, it's only for the Elitists that can get the Rated Titles, and Tournament Standing, not us. WTH were we thinking!
I don't see what it has to do with LFR. Could you explain?

Yes, in any competitive game someone has to lose - although I say it's a waste of time for the other team not because they lost, but because they never had a chance of winning. It shouldn't be 'easy' to win a game where you're matched against other players. You are going outside of the queuing system to make sure you have almost no chance of a loss. How is that anything but cheating?
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12535
12/04/2012 10:11 AMPosted by Cylthia
I don't see what it has to do with LFR. Could you explain?


Have you not gone in to a LFR or even Dungeon with a group of what are deemed "random" players only to find out most of them are from the same guild or friends and they make sure to need on everything so you can not get anything that maybe one of their friends want?
And if you bother to speak up, they either kick you, tell you you are lucky they didn't kick you, or offer to sell it to for a crazy amount of gold.
But that is the way Blizzard made it, so working as intended, right?
100 Human Priest
19640
12/04/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Xaeva
I don't see what it has to do with LFR. Could you explain?


Have you not gone in to a LFR or even Dungeon with a group of what are deemed "random" players only to find out most of them are from the same guild or friends and they make sure to need on everything so you can not get anything that maybe one of their friends want?
And if you bother to speak up, they either kick you, tell you you are lucky they didn't kick you, or offer to sell it to for a crazy amount of gold.
But that is the way Blizzard made it, so working as intended, right?
What's that got to do with anything, though? Neither of those are intended to be purely random groups; they're just a means to fill your group if you don't already have a full one. You don't need to use an addon or count down in vent to get 25 people into LFR, and while it makes the raid easier, it does not make someone else's raid harder. Nothing is stopping you from running a heroic in a five man party, or from running battlegrounds in groups of the same size.
100 Tauren Death Knight
8395
Yes, in any competitive game someone has to lose - although I say it's a waste of time for the other team not because they lost, but because they never had a chance of winning. It shouldn't be 'easy' to win a game where you're matched against other players. You are going outside of the queuing system to make sure you have almost no chance of a loss. How is that anything but cheating?

if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?

1. no bots
shouldn't this be encouraged? not an argument point unless you're supporting bots

2. communication
wow has an in-game voice module that allows everyone to communicate. there is also chat to help coordinate objectives and priorities. my opponents inability to utilize the tools properly is not my problem

3. fully geared out players
i have literally run hundreds, if not thousands, of oQueue premades and not one had a gear or rating requirement. many players had no resilience and some were fresh 90s

4. gung-ho players
yes, the people that join the oQueue group are playing to win. shouldn't this be encouraged? why would you join the bg if you had no intention of playing to win? are the players queuing solo not intent on winning? why are they queuing?

personally, i would say the biggest impact on our opponents is their B&B factor. the bots and bads. those players with no intention of winning that just want a quick end so they can re-queue to grind more honor. this should be discouraged or at the very least, not penalize the other team for being more motivated

possibly the biggest advantage an oQueue premade has is #4. it's also the reason people love oQueue groups. they get to meet like minded players without being harassed as a 'try-hard' and coordinate to achieve the objective. it's a MUCH more satisfying game when you're playing with people that are trying, as opposed to losing due to your B&B factor being higher. this should be encouraged and blizz should NEVER cow-tow to the B&B crowd

i won't
Edited by Tinymasher on 12/4/2012 10:36 AM PST
90 Undead Warlock
7580
They do not want premades to play against less-coordinated groups. They do not want to make unrated battlegrounds even less friendly to solo queuers and smaller groups by putting a 'you might get pubstomped by a full premade' warning label on them.


If that were the case they would fix queuing. They are fully aware of 2-8 groups queuing together, yet don't stagger ques. Sounds like they "fixed" the add-on to ease the solo queuers mind thinking they broke the ability to group que.
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12535
What's that got to do with anything, though? Neither of those are intended to be purely random groups; they're just a means to fill your group if you don't already have a full one. You don't need to use an addon or count down in vent to get 25 people into LFR, and while it makes the raid easier, it does not make someone else's raid harder. Nothing is stopping you from running a heroic in a five man party, or from running battlegrounds in groups of the same size.


Hey you asked, I just explained.
To me, LFR and Dungeons are Lazy and Selfish.
100 Human Priest
19640
12/04/2012 10:34 AMPosted by Tinymasher
Yes, in any competitive game someone has to lose - although I say it's a waste of time for the other team not because they lost, but because they never had a chance of winning. It shouldn't be 'easy' to win a game where you're matched against other players. You are going outside of the queuing system to make sure you have almost no chance of a loss. How is that anything but cheating?

if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?

1. no bots
shouldn't this be encouraged? not an argument point unless you're supporting bots

2. communication
wow has an in-game voice module that allows everyone to communicate. there is also chat to help coordinate objectives and priorities. my opponents inability to utilize the tools properly is not my problem

3. fully geared out players
i have literally run hundreds, if not thousands, of oQueue premades and not one had a gear or rating requirement. many players had no resilience and some were fresh 90s

4. gung-ho players
yes, the people that join the oQueue group are playing to win. shouldn't this be encouraged? why would you join the bg if you had no intention of playing to win? are the players queuing solo not intent on winning? why are they queuing?

personally, i would say the biggest impact on our opponents is their B&B factor. the bots and bads. those players with no intention of winning that just want a quick end so they can re-queue to grind more honor. this should be discouraged or at the very least, not penalize the other team for being more motivated

possibly the biggest advantage an oQueue premade has is #4. it's also the reason people love oQueue groups. they get to meet like minded players without being harassed as a 'try-hard' and coordinate to achieve the objective. it's a MUCH more satisfying game when you're playing with people that are trying, as opposed to losing due to your B&B factor being higher. this should be encouraged and blizz should NEVER cow-tow to the B&B crowd

i won't
None of this is relevant. Yes, we know your teams are great, focused, cooperative people. The thing is, you're brining the rated bg playstyle to unrated battlegrounds, and in so doing, are taking advantage of the limits of the in-game queue system. You bring a full team with no bots, and you get opponents who just met each other, who have no control over whether or not they've been teamed with bots or afkers. So not only do they have to contend with having fewer actual participants on their team, but they have an opponent who's all on vent together, who have already agreed on a leader and a strategy. That gives you an excessive advantage. If you want to play that way, you have other options, as the blue post outlined for you.
12/04/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Jugaa
They do not want premades to play against less-coordinated groups. They do not want to make unrated battlegrounds even less friendly to solo queuers and smaller groups by putting a 'you might get pubstomped by a full premade' warning label on them.


If that were the case they would fix queuing. They are fully aware of 2-8 groups queuing together, yet don't stagger ques. Sounds like they "fixed" the add-on to ease the solo queuers mind thinking they broke the ability to group que.
We've been told before that it's just not that easy to fix. Neither is botting. Do you think that's acceptable, too? If it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to do it, right?

12/04/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Xaeva
What's that got to do with anything, though? Neither of those are intended to be purely random groups; they're just a means to fill your group if you don't already have a full one. You don't need to use an addon or count down in vent to get 25 people into LFR, and while it makes the raid easier, it does not make someone else's raid harder. Nothing is stopping you from running a heroic in a five man party, or from running battlegrounds in groups of the same size.


Hey you asked, I just explained.
To me, LFR and Dungeons are Lazy and Selfish.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but bad behavior in one venue doesn't excuse bad behavior elsewhere. People who roll need on things they don't need are jerks. So are pub stompers. The thing is, you can avoid or deal with the former using in-game tools. When you're faced with the latter, you can't do a damn thing about it.
90 Undead Warlock
7580
We've been told before that it's just not that easy to fix. Neither is botting. Do you think that's acceptable, too? If it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to do it, right?


Where was staggering que ever discussed? link?
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12535
12/04/2012 10:45 AMPosted by Cylthia
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but bad behavior in one venue doesn't excuse bad behavior elsewhere. People who roll need on things they don't need are jerks. So are pub stompers. The thing is, you can avoid or deal with the former using in-game tools. When you're faced with the latter, you can't do a damn thing about it.


yes you can, the same method I used for many a year. /afk
losing 15 mins of time is nothing
100 Tauren Death Knight
8395
None of this is relevant. Yes, we know your teams are great, focused, cooperative people. The thing is, you're brining the rated bg playstyle to unrated battlegrounds, and in so doing, are taking advantage of the limits of the in-game queue system. You bring a full team with no bots, and you get opponents who just met each other, who have no control over whether or not they've been teamed with bots or afkers. So not only do they have to contend with having fewer actual participants on their team, but they have an opponent who's all on vent together, who have already agreed on a leader and a strategy. That gives you an excessive advantage. If you want to play that way, you have other options, as the blue post outlined for you.

"None of this is relevant" - of course not, dear

"rated bg playstyle" -- how exactly? there are no gear or rating requirements

"You bring a full team with no bots" - are you saying we MUST bring bots?

"you get opponents who just met each other" - oQueue groups are pick up groups, many of which met for the first time thru oQueue

"they have to contend with having fewer actual participants on their team" - not my problem

"they have an opponent who's all on vent" - use the in-game voice module once in the bg

"already agreed on a leader and a strategy" - leader, generally. strat? i've called the strat as the gate goes up.

again, the only advantage you pointed out that a premade group has is actual players instead of bots... and a lack of bads.

don't try to force your loss-oriented mindset on my play style
100 Undead Warrior
14750
this anti premade crusading you're seeing is of that
politically correct mindset. they refuse to be held
accountable for their deficiencies and will throw around
words like cheat, exploit, and fair, in their campaign to
lower the benchmark to a level that makes them feel
good about their inability to 'play the game'.

i, and others, could continue to effectively counter
this sort of flawed thinking but it would be, literally,
futile. Cylthia's arguments, for example, as clever as
they may be, are very narrow and fail to comprehend
the essence of what is taking place. she's not alone in
this defectiveness as evidenced by her anti premade
cohorts and the fact that this patch even saw daylight.

there's a 'forest for the tree's' thing going on here that's
resulting in a 'logic meets doorknob' debate, doorknob
being the anti premade crowd - just so we're clear.

these pro premade points being made are quite
accurate, and good for the game. i could counter
all the anti points made in the past several pages,
as others are effectively doing, however, i've spoke
to doorknobs before. i'm sure you can guess how
that conversation went.

so, what we have is a small group of people who are
celebrating a hollow victory, more child proofing of the
game, and a company that has lost touch with what
warcraft is and a dumbing down so it appeals to a
younger and younger crowd in hopes to have more
parents swipe their credit cards to pacify whiny brats.

doesn't matter to me really. it's still a battleground and
i'm going to """pub stomp""" your sorry self whenever
i see you. i'm coming for you, little girl. so, run away,
or get roflstomped, wtfpwnd....

Cheers.
Pleb.
100 Human Priest
19640
12/04/2012 10:57 AMPosted by Tinymasher
None of this is relevant. Yes, we know your teams are great, focused, cooperative people. The thing is, you're brining the rated bg playstyle to unrated battlegrounds, and in so doing, are taking advantage of the limits of the in-game queue system. You bring a full team with no bots, and you get opponents who just met each other, who have no control over whether or not they've been teamed with bots or afkers. So not only do they have to contend with having fewer actual participants on their team, but they have an opponent who's all on vent together, who have already agreed on a leader and a strategy. That gives you an excessive advantage. If you want to play that way, you have other options, as the blue post outlined for you.

"None of this is relevant" - of course not, dear

"rated bg playstyle" -- how exactly? there are no gear or rating requirements

"You bring a full team with no bots" - are you saying we MUST bring bots?

"you get opponents who just met each other" - oQueue groups are pick up groups, many of which met for the first time thru oQueue

"they have to contend with having fewer actual participants on their team" - not my problem

"they have an opponent who's all on vent" - use the in-game voice module once in the bg

"already agreed on a leader and a strategy" - leader, generally. strat? i've called the strat as the gate goes up.

again, the only advantage you pointed out that a premade group has is actual players instead of bots... and a lack of bads.

don't try to force your loss-oriented mindset on my play style
I'm not trying to force anything on you. I'm saying that your playstyle belongs in rateds and wargames, and not in unrated battlegrounds.

Of course there are no rating or gear requirements; you don't need them because you're not facing equally coordinated opponents. You are still playing like they're rbgs; you just aren't selecting your teams the way you would have to if you were facing other geared, prepared premades more often than pugs.

"Not my problem" sums it all up nicely. You don't care about the unfair advantage that premades give you over honest players. It's not that unusual; a lot of people will take whatever advantage they can get no matter how unfair it is to anyone else. That's why games have rules. Like the one about premade size.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but bad behavior in one venue doesn't excuse bad behavior elsewhere. People who roll need on things they don't need are jerks. So are pub stompers. The thing is, you can avoid or deal with the former using in-game tools. When you're faced with the latter, you can't do a damn thing about it.


yes you can, the same method I used for many a year. /afk
losing 15 mins of time is nothing
To you, maybe. But why do you think that your ability to play the way you want even if it's a playstyle that isn't supported by the game is so important that it's fine to tell someone else "sorry, you should have circumvented the queue like I did, you should just afk out and add to my 'tears' stat!"
12/04/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Jugaa
We've been told before that it's just not that easy to fix. Neither is botting. Do you think that's acceptable, too? If it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to do it, right?


Where was staggering que ever discussed? link?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3523403390?page=5#94

Why should they have to list this exact, specific change to convince you that they've thought of it and can't currently make it work? You seem to think that fixing this would be easy. We've been told that it isn't, and neither is getting the queue system to match larger premades against each other. Why do you think you know better?
Edited by Cylthia on 12/4/2012 11:13 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12535
12/04/2012 11:09 AMPosted by Cylthia
Why do you think you know better?


probably the same reason you do?
100 Tauren Death Knight
8395
I'm not trying to force anything on you. I'm saying that your playstyle belongs in rateds and wargames, and not in unrated battlegrounds.

let me know when they open up 40 man rated bgs. as for wargames... i'm here to crush alliance, not people i know. get with the program

Of course there are no rating or gear requirements; you don't need them because you're not facing equally coordinated opponents. You are still playing like they're rbgs; you just aren't selecting your teams the way you would have to if you were facing other geared, prepared premades more often than pugs.

as i pointed out, the coordination tools are available to both sides. in-game voice chat and type chat are available for coordination. if they don't choose to use them, like equipping a fishing pole instead of a 2H weapon, then that's their problem... not mine.

as for being geared, again, as you conveniently ignored, NONE of my groups have EVER had ANY gear requirements. many fresh 90s join them, with quest blues and no resil. that 'point' is irrelevant

"Not my problem" sums it all up nicely. You don't care about the unfair advantage that premades give you over honest players. It's not that unusual; a lot of people will take whatever advantage they can get no matter how unfair it is to anyone else. That's why games have rules. Like the one about premade size.

no... MY problem is doing everything i can to crush my opponent. THEIR problem is the same. if they have chosen to utilize the solo queuing mechanism blizz supplies instead of oQueue, then they have an increased chance of running with bots. that's their choice and ... not my problem.

worry about your team... i'll worry about mine... and we'll meet on the field.

your tears on these threads, and over the last few months, have only motivated me more
100 Undead Warrior
14750
clippage of a whole lot of blabbity blabbity
blabbity....

"...a lot of people will take whatever advantage they can get no matter how unfair it is to anyone else."

psst, yoohoo..., doorknob, over here *waves*
this here pretty much is your entire argument.

the zero sum game. nobody wins. nobody loses.
the world of california t-ball if you will.

can't have one team cap a flag because it gives
an unfair advantage over the other team.

hey, i think you're onto something here.

*mumbles under breath while honing his 2hand sword.

i'm coming for you. run away little girl, run away.

Cheers.
Pleb.
100 Blood Elf Priest
18725
You are still playing like they're rbgs

Actually, we don't. RBGs require a different strategy to win than what most of the regular BG's use. RBGs also require a planned composition, which we again don't do.

oQueue is available to everyone! Drop in, say hi, come join us for some fun BGs if you have the time. No jerks here, we're even nice to the Alliance in vent.
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