JoinBattlefield, Post 5.1? PART 2

100 Human Priest
19070
Why do you think you know better?


probably the same reason you do?
That's the thing: I believe them when they say they're working on it and can't fix it currently. I'm hearing a lot of people claiming that if they really wanted to prevent premades completely, they could, and that the fact thaty they haven't is tacit approval. I don't claim to know better than Blizzard what they are and aren't capable of. All I'm doing is reporting what they've said on the subject.
12/04/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Tinymasher
I'm not trying to force anything on you. I'm saying that your playstyle belongs in rateds and wargames, and not in unrated battlegrounds.

let me know when they open up 40 man rated bgs. as for wargames... i'm here to crush alliance, not people i know. get with the program
I have never said that these options were identical to the experience you get in unrated battlegrounds. You can not expect every aspect of the game to be tailored pesonally to you. The game supports a lot of different playstyles, but you've decided to cherry pick the coordination of rateds and wargames, and the uncoordinated opponents of unrated battlegrounds, and make your very own personal easymode games.

Of course there are no rating or gear requirements; you don't need them because you're not facing equally coordinated opponents. You are still playing like they're rbgs; you just aren't selecting your teams the way you would have to if you were facing other geared, prepared premades more often than pugs.

as i pointed out, the coordination tools are available to both sides. in-game voice chat and type chat are available for coordination. if they don't choose to use them, like equipping a fishing pole instead of a 2H weapon, then that's their problem... not mine.

as for being geared, again, as you conveniently ignored, NONE of my groups have EVER had ANY gear requirements. many fresh 90s join them, with quest blues and no resil. that 'point' is irrelevant
So what? Who cares? Your addon should not be mandatory. If Blizzard wanted everyone to play as you do, they'd remove the party size limit without bothering about trying to match premades against each other. By saying 'anyone can use it,' you're essentially saying 'if someone doesn't use it, it's their fault if they lose.' You don't get to dictate the rules of unrated battlegrounds.

"Not my problem" sums it all up nicely. You don't care about the unfair advantage that premades give you over honest players. It's not that unusual; a lot of people will take whatever advantage they can get no matter how unfair it is to anyone else. That's why games have rules. Like the one about premade size.

no... MY problem is doing everything i can to crush my opponent. THEIR problem is the same. if they have chosen to utilize the solo queuing mechanism blizz supplies instead of oQueue, then they have an increased chance of running with bots. that's their choice and ... not my problem.
Why do you insist on making this about big premades vs. solo queuers? People who queue in groups of five or fewer have 'chosen' not to ignore the rules. That only puts them at a disadvantage against people who think the rules don't apply to them.

worry about your team... i'll worry about mine... and we'll meet on the field.

your tears on these threads, and over the last few months, have only motivated me more
Do you really think that there's anything remotely 'demoralizing' about losing to a cheater? Really? I can only think of one time that I've been matched against a team that was obviously, unquestionably a pub stomping premade. I rolled my eyes and waited it out. I'm sure it makes you feel good to assume that this is all about 'tears;' it's not. I think cheating is lame. I think cheaters are lame. I think people who stroke their epeens about how great they are at cheating, as you do, are pathetic.
12/04/2012 11:30 AMPosted by Sorina
You are still playing like they're rbgs

Actually, we don't. RBGs require a different strategy to win than what most of the regular BG's use. RBGs also require a planned composition, which we again don't do.

oQueue is available to everyone! Drop in, say hi, come join us for some fun BGs if you have the time. No jerks here, we're even nice to the Alliance in vent.
Yeah, I understand that, but they require those things because your opponents are as coordinated as you are. You have to worry about comp and gear because you know the other team will, too. I didn't say you were choosing your teams like you were playing rateds, but that you were playing your games like a rated battleground, with that level of coordination.

I really, really wish that your addon was all about community. Those aspects are great, because there are unfortunately a lot of people who for whatever reason can't find people to play with in-game. I think that matching people together like that is good. But the cheating sucks.
Edited by Cylthia on 12/4/2012 11:38 AM PST
92 Tauren Death Knight
8180
So what? Who cares? Your addon should not be mandatory. If Blizzard wanted everyone to play as you do, they'd remove the party size limit without bothering about trying to match premades against each other. By saying 'anyone can use it,' you're essentially saying 'if someone doesn't use it, it's their fault if they lose.' You don't get to dictate the rules of unrated battlegrounds.

what do you think about resilience? it's not mandatory to have pvp gear, but without it you'll get stomped. whose fault is that? blizz or yours?

and i'm not dictating anything... unlike yourself... i'm offering options

Why do you insist on making this about big premades vs. solo queuers? People who queue in groups of five or fewer have 'chosen' not to ignore the rules. That only puts them at a disadvantage against people who think the rules don't apply to them.

you have a CHOICE... coordinate with the people in your bg group... or don't. you can type chat, jump in vent, or use the in-game voice to coordinate your team. if you don't choose to utilize them, that's your call. stop trying to force your deliberately limited play style on others.

Do you really think that there's anything remotely 'demoralizing' about losing to a cheater? Really? I can only think of one time that I've been matched against a team that was obviously, unquestionably a pub stomping premade. I rolled my eyes and waited it out. I'm sure it makes you feel good to assume that this is all about 'tears;' it's not. I think cheating is lame. I think cheaters are lame. I think people who stroke their epeens about how great they are at cheating, as you do, are pathetic.

funny thing is... there is no cheating going on. of course, you've been butt hurt over rath-strat forever, so no amount of logic would alter your view (doorknob?) (i don't do rath-strat generally... it's either mini-choke or ultimate drek turtle for me)

actually, if you choose to not participate in the in-game communication tools.... you are helping the other side win, effectively cheating your side out of a victory.

which is... not my problem.

side point:
you've barely done 700 bgs over the last 2 1/2 yrs. you're a pve type, with over 1300 instances run. were all those dungeons and raids completely random? no. why not? why not force raids to no more then you and 4 friends... and take your luck with randoms (ie: LFR). seriously, this is about pvp, not pve 'fairness' (whatever that is).
Edited by Tinymasher on 12/4/2012 11:54 AM PST
100 Human Priest
19070
12/04/2012 11:51 AMPosted by Tinymasher
So what? Who cares? Your addon should not be mandatory. If Blizzard wanted everyone to play as you do, they'd remove the party size limit without bothering about trying to match premades against each other. By saying 'anyone can use it,' you're essentially saying 'if someone doesn't use it, it's their fault if they lose.' You don't get to dictate the rules of unrated battlegrounds.

what do you think about resilience? it's not mandatory to have pvp gear, but without it you'll get stomped. whose fault is that? blizz or yours?

and i'm not dictating anything... unlike yourself... i'm offering options
You're offering options that the game does not intend you to have. No amount of silly arguments about gear and the in game voice chat (I mean, really? the in game voice chat?) are going to change that.

Do you really think that there's anything remotely 'demoralizing' about losing to a cheater? Really? I can only think of one time that I've been matched against a team that was obviously, unquestionably a pub stomping premade. I rolled my eyes and waited it out. I'm sure it makes you feel good to assume that this is all about 'tears;' it's not. I think cheating is lame. I think cheaters are lame. I think people who stroke their epeens about how great they are at cheating, as you do, are pathetic.

funny thing is... there is no cheating going on. of course, you've been butt hurt over rath-strat forever, so no amount of logic would alter your view (doorknob?)
I'm not seeing any logic here. I'm really not. I'm seeing justifications that ignore a few simple facts: we have solid statements from Blizzard staff that what you're doing is not intended and is considered an exploit. That's all there is to it.
you've barely done 700 bgs over the last 2 1/2 yrs. you're a pve type, with over 1300 instances run. were all those dungeons and raids completely random? no. why not? why not force raids to no more then you and 4 friends... and take your luck with randoms (ie: LFR). seriously, this is about pvp, not pve 'fairness' (whatever that is).
That's nonsense, but you know that. Raids are not the pve equivalent of unrated battlegrounds.

And since we're sniping at each other's armory profiles: is that your pvp gear? All those blues? I guess you don't get a whole lot of conquest queuing for AV after AV, huh?

Mine's better. :-)
92 Tauren Death Knight
8180
That's nonsense, but you know that. Raids are not the pve equivalent of unrated battlegrounds.

And since we're sniping at each other's armory profiles: is that your pvp gear? All those blues? I guess you don't get a whole lot of conquest queuing for AV after AV, huh?

yea, i've been writing code, not playing. both for oQueue and my real work

and the snipe to your armory is because you're pve and your pov is irrelevant, especially since you've prolly never ran into a full premade (but thought you had)

You're offering options that the game does not intend you to have. No amount of silly arguments about gear and the in game voice chat (I mean, really? the in game voice chat?) are going to change that.

i am not offering anything that is not already there, except the mesh ... which has nothing to do with bgs.

QQ more. me and my 40 friends will be waiting for you in AV... if you ever play it
100 Human Priest
19070
That's nonsense, but you know that. Raids are not the pve equivalent of unrated battlegrounds.

And since we're sniping at each other's armory profiles: is that your pvp gear? All those blues? I guess you don't get a whole lot of conquest queuing for AV after AV, huh?

yea, i've been writing code, not playing. both for oQueue and my real work

and the snipe to your armory is because you're pve and your pov is irrelevant, especially since you've prolly never ran into a full premade (but thought you had)
Well, you can discount my opinion because of my battleground statistics page if you want, but you cant discount the facts I present. They're there, and no matter how many battlegrounds I've played on this character since I started pvping on her (and no, it hasn't been 2 1/2 years), they're still just as clear.

You're offering options that the game does not intend you to have. No amount of silly arguments about gear and the in game voice chat (I mean, really? the in game voice chat?) are going to change that.

i am not offering anything that is not already there, except the mesh ... which has nothing to do with bgs.

QQ more. me and my 40 friends will be waiting for you in AV... if you ever play it
No QQing here, as much as you'd like to believe it; just contempt. I don't give a fig about losing a game to a cheater. It's not 'humiliating', it's not 'demoralizing;' it is at worst annoying. But that says it all: your response to someone who points out evidence that your playstyle is considered cheating is 'QQ more'? Well, if that's the best you can do, I guess that's not my problem.
92 Tauren Death Knight
8180
No QQing here, as much as you'd like to believe it; just contempt. I don't give a fig about losing a game to a cheater. It's not 'humiliating', it's not 'demoralizing;' it is at worst annoying. But that says it all: your response to someone who points out evidence that your playstyle is considered cheating is 'QQ more'? Well, if that's the best you can do, I guess that's not my problem.

you've been QQ'ing for MONTHS ever since rath's article. that's some serious butt hurt and definitely has generated loads of QQ from you

as for cheating, you're clueless. if i were actually cheating and i saw your team coming at me... i'd drop them all thru the map... or raise them 100 yards into the air and drop them. that's cheating as there is no defense and cannot be done by both sides.

you labeling premades as 'cheats' would be the same as calling someone a cheater because they had all epic gear in a normal bg.

pretty doorknob raging for months. hilarious
100 Human Priest
19070
12/04/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Tinymasher
No QQing here, as much as you'd like to believe it; just contempt. I don't give a fig about losing a game to a cheater. It's not 'humiliating', it's not 'demoralizing;' it is at worst annoying. But that says it all: your response to someone who points out evidence that your playstyle is considered cheating is 'QQ more'? Well, if that's the best you can do, I guess that's not my problem.

you've been QQ'ing for MONTHS ever since rath's article. that's some serious butt hurt and definitely has generated loads of QQ from you
Why do any negative comments about your exploit automatically equal QQ? You've said yourself that you don't believe that I've ever played a premade at all. So how can I possibly be 'butthurt'?

This is the usual refuge of the griefer and the troll: 'lol, butthurt! QQ more!' You wish.
as for cheating, you're clueless. if i were actually cheating and i saw your team coming at me... i'd drop them all thru the map... or raise them 100 yards into the air and drop them. that's cheating as there is no defense and cannot be done by both sides.

you labeling premades as 'cheats' would be the same as calling someone a cheater because they had all epic gear in a normal bg.

pretty doorknob raging for months. hilarious
Have you really not read this?

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/274962299779960832

If "getting around the rules" isn't cheating, what is it?
Edited by Cylthia on 12/4/2012 12:40 PM PST
92 Tauren Death Knight
8180
Why do any negative comments about your exploit automatically equal QQ? You've said yourself that you don't believe that I've ever played a premade at all. So how can I possibly be 'butthurt'?

your reading comprehension must have really taken a hit while sitting in those occupy camps

i know you've been to a few bgs... most likely in pve gear (because dragon slayers are tops!) only to get curb stomped... which of course means it had to be a premade... and not your inability to gear properly
12/04/2012 12:39 PMPosted by Cylthia
Have you really not read this?

who reads twitter? and who takes it as gospel??

i think your meds are wearing off
92 Tauren Death Knight
8180
12/04/2012 12:39 PMPosted by Cylthia
If "getting around the rules" isn't cheating, what is it?

hmmm.. i wonder if i check the forums for your posts, would i find even half as many on threads raging about bots? you know... actual cheating

i don't think so.
100 Human Priest
19070
12/04/2012 12:43 PMPosted by Tinymasher
Why do any negative comments about your exploit automatically equal QQ? You've said yourself that you don't believe that I've ever played a premade at all. So how can I possibly be 'butthurt'?

your reading comprehension must have really taken a hit while sitting in those occupy camps

i know you've been to a few bgs... most likely in pve gear (because dragon slayers are tops!) only to get curb stomped... which of course means it had to be a premade... and not your inability to gear properly
Sitting in occupy camps? I don't know what to make of that. Are you making bizarre assumptions about me, or do you genuinely think you know more about me than what's on my armory page?

Either way, you've obviously spend a good deal of time looking at my armory, so you must know that I don't need to play battlegrounds in PVE gear. My PVP gear is pretty good, thanks. And you should also know from your extensive reaarch that my win ratio is pretty respectable for someone who doesn't use pub stomp. Why's it so hard for you to conceive that someone might enjoy more than one aspect of the game?
12/04/2012 12:39 PMPosted by Cylthia
Have you really not read this?

who reads twitter? and who takes it as gospel??

i think your meds are wearing off
Ah, so you haven't, then, huh? Well, now you have! You don't need to take everything on twitter as 'gospel' to accept that a game dev is a better authority on what is and isn't acceptable in unrated battlegrounds than you yourself are.
If "getting around the rules" isn't cheating, what is it?

hmmm.. i wonder if i check the forums for your posts, would i find even half as many on threads raging about bots? you know... actual cheating

i don't think so.
How many threads have you seen that aren't blatantly obvious flamebait where a botter tries to defend and even brag about their 'playstyle?' There's just nothing to say about botters. They suck. Duh

I think you need to understand something, since you don't seem to be picking up on it on your own: I'm enjoying this. I like arguing. It's fun. A lot of you folks seem to think that this is a negative thing for me. It's not. It's entertaining.
Edited by Cylthia on 12/4/2012 12:53 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Hunter
12355
12/04/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Cylthia
I think you need to understand something, since you don't seem to be picking up on it on your own: I'm enjoying this. I like arguing. It's fun. A lot of you folks seem to think that this is a negative thing for me. It's not. It's entertaining.


Your arguments are no longer entertaining. You have become boring, repetitive, unnecessary and tiresome.
This Doornob has become very dull
100 Human Priest
19070
12/04/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Xaeva
I think you need to understand something, since you don't seem to be picking up on it on your own: I'm enjoying this. I like arguing. It's fun. A lot of you folks seem to think that this is a negative thing for me. It's not. It's entertaining.


Your arguments are no longer entertaining. You have become boring, repetitive, unnecessary and tiresome.
This Doornob has become very dull
Well, I'm glad you found the discussion entertaining for a while! :-)
Community Manager
12/04/2012 10:34 AMPosted by Tinymasher
if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?


I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.
90 Draenei Monk
11285
12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

This is a good change, now if only this logic would be applied to multi-boxers...
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160
12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?


I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.


Dear Daxxarri,

My experience to not have to deal with bots and afk'ers over and over and over and over in random battlegrounds is more important than some random Alliance's experience to not lose a game against a team that is present and coordinated.

Fix the bot problem and you'll see the premade "problem" fix itself.

Since you all aren't willing or able to do what needs to be done quickly enough, we as a community have been forced to take matters into our own hands in order to be able to enjoy the PvP experience. Is there collateral damage? Yes. But if we don't, there's still collateral damage, but it's us. I'd rather the side that has to be sad be the other team and not mine.

You say that addons like this drive players away from PvP? Having to deal with botters and afk'ers has driven many more players away from it, and in fact, addons like these have served to RETAIN players who otherwise would have quit because your company can't seem to get the job done in a timely or effective fashion. So you're wrong. Addons ARE a solution to botting issues. And they're a pretty freakin' good one so far.

If the only problem you have with these addons is that they get around battleground "premade group rules" then you should consider changing or relaxing the rules until you figure out a way to solve the problem that's making us want to get around them in the first place. Because if bots and afk'ers are evil, and full premade groups are evil, the lesser of the two evils is surely the full premade groups, since we're actually people and not bots. If you disagree and think premades are worse than bots, I would love to hear you say that.

Thank you,

Evan
Edited by Evannder on 12/4/2012 2:37 PM PST
100 Undead Warlock
22465
I'm wondering why there's still a "Join as Party" button, if premades in random BGs are against the spirit of the game.

Make no mistake, a 5man coordinated group can still make an enormous difference.

If I was king, I'd ditch the current system of queuing (both random and rated) and shift to a 'war room' concept for group formation. You enter the war room, chat with other folks wanting to PvP, elect your class and role, and even publish Voice-Comm info (or hey, one day the in-game voice chat will actually work!)

You'll enter BGs with a known group of classes/roles and everyone would likely be a human being.

Sure, this would mean it would take longer to get in and play, but there'd probaby be a general concensus that the time to form the group would be a better penalty, than sitting inside a BG watching robots.
100 Draenei Shaman
14510
12/04/2012 02:27 PMPosted by Nirrti
I'm wondering why there's still a "Join as Party" button, if premades in random BGs are against the spirit of the game.


Because the current plan from Blizzard is to allow a group of 5 friends to play together, much the same way that they do for a dungeon or other group content. It's consistent with their "casual" consumption of content model.

Your War Room model sounds a lot like a "Lobby + Queue" system used in other games, and isn't a bad idea. IT would need a great deal more work to be fully realized and made non-exploitative.

The current queuing system isn't perfect, and yes, a 5-man team of friends using voice chat, strategies they worked out ahead of time, etc. is an advantage especially in, say Warsong Gultch, but it's within the current design model. In larger games, a single 5-man team that works well together might give your side an edge, but it doesn't equate to dominance.

Solo or 5-man queuing is like going to the playground for a pick-up game of hoops. Discovering the entire opposing team is a pre-made is like discovering you have to play against the Chicago Bulls if you want to play at all.
Edited by Unkle on 12/4/2012 2:39 PM PST
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