JoinBattlefield, Post 5.1? PART 2

90 Undead Warrior
12085
12/03/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Cylthia
and rateds and wargames are for larger ones


show me where i can queue the 40man rated bg.

do this, and all the tripe that's spewing from your
keyboard might just start to hold some water.

Cheers.
Pleb.
90 Tauren Death Knight
7240
Terrible analogy. Raids are not the PVE equivalent of unrated battlegrounds. They're the pve equivalent of rated battlegrounds. You know, one of the options that you have available to you if you want organized, large group pvp.

really? so there are RBGs larger then 10v10 ... with a large enough interest to get a queue within a reasonable time?

do tell
90 Human Priest
17090
12/03/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Tinymasher
Terrible analogy. Raids are not the PVE equivalent of unrated battlegrounds. They're the pve equivalent of rated battlegrounds. You know, one of the options that you have available to you if you want organized, large group pvp.

really? so there are RBGs larger then 10v10 ... with a large enough interest to get a queue within a reasonable time?

do tell
You seem to have reading comprehension problems. One of the options available. Wargames are the other. Neither of them are perfect, but they're what we have. You can't always have everything you want.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15765
12/03/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Dysheki
Being outplayed because you're of a lower skill is one thing, but to be equal skill and get taken to town because people are coordinating things is another. It's not really that fair and that's why the compromise of allowing a small group into random BGs is there while keeping shy of allowing full raids.


You hit exactly what I'm trying to say. By better than me, I mean more than just skill or gear. I am talking about coordination. A team is only as good as it's weakest members. An individual may be just as good or better than the players in the opposing team, but if the enemy is acting like a team that wants to win and your team will not, that makes them better. Like your premades that you ran. Your team was coordinated. I can't imagine that you took well geared and skilled people with you 100% of the time, but I can believe that every last one of those people in your premade was willing to follow your instructions and work as a team. And that made you better, so you won. That's how it should be. Coordination = wins.

BGs are about the team's ability to work together as a whole, not about an individual's skill. I've even seen premade groups fall apart and get rolled because the members were being little divas that day and just didn't want to listen. With lots of BGs under your belt as a leader, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of *that*. xD

The systems are in place for PuG BGs to coordinate. There is an in-game voice system. There are raid markers that can be placed on enemy focus targets. BG chat is there for communication. The tools are there. Saying that coordination is unfair is just silly. That's the whole point of a BG! A team is supposed to coordinate to win. It isn't the premade's fault if the PuG on the other team is a diva that won't follow instructions or nobody has the guts to lead.

A PuG member of a BG is just as capable of peeling a healer or following instructions as the next guy, if he/she is willing to do so. I've met many great people in premades that started as a PuG we picked up that was willing to listen and follow instructions. We made it work, we typed instructions, we invited them to chat with us, but success came down to their desire and willingness to win.
90 Worgen Druid
17805
12/03/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Xaeva

Do it for the fun! I did some all druid war games, had a blast.

(also, large scale war is world pvp, pretty easy to find these days with CRZ)


You think large cordinated 40 man groups belong out in the world, killing random players but not in a BG?

and you called me a troll?

It's called world PvP, you try it?

12/03/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Theplebian
Being outplayed because you're of a lower skill is one thing, but to be equal skill and get taken to town because people are coordinating things is another. It's not really that fair and that's why the compromise of allowing a small group into random BGs is there while keeping shy of allowing full raids.


Dysheki, yes, you've made it very clear that you
can't stand warcraft, the coordination that takes
place in the battlegrounds. you think it's unfair.

although, you are speaking out of both sides of
your neck so i probably shouldn't listen to any of it.

Cheers.
Pleb.

You have made it clear you do not understand a single thing I'm posting. I have no problem with the coordination it takes to run BGs, but guess what, I have a problem when one side has complete coordination and the other side is a pug and has 0 coordination. It's. Not. Fair. It's not competition. Have fun with God Mode.
12/03/2012 06:10 PMPosted by Cylthia
[quote][quote]
Nothing except that the vast majority of players didn't know it existed, or even that it was possible to queue for battlegrounds in large groups, because the game did not and does not permit it.}}
^^ messed up the quote box

I got tired of gettin rolled solo in bgs so I google searched "premade bgs" to find OQ within minutes...if you don't care enough about your bgs to google it then you deserve to be stomped.
Edited by Borisha on 12/3/2012 6:46 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Hunter
0


I totally agree that q'ing for a random BG and facing even a 5 man premade sucks. I did it hundreds of time. It was the only way I could get my honor gear and my conquest gear. BUT... then I found an addon and comunity that made it less painful.

The addon, like most addons, helped the solo pug improve his or her play style. It was free, open to the public, usable by both factions. Just like 100's and 1000's of other addons.

You keep saying that the addon was "unfair" to the radom player. There was nothing stopping them from getting and using the addon.


Nothing except that the vast majority of players didn't know it existed, or even that it was possible to queue for battlegrounds in large groups, because the game did not and does not permit it. And when someone queues legitimately and gets matched up against a queue-exploiting premade, it does not matter that they 'could have' exploited the queue in the same way.


Oh, now it's an "exploit".
So it does not matter that the PAV addon "exploit" has been on Curse for over 6 years. and has been downloaded over 1,865,000 times.
And the newest addon "exploit", oQueue had just over 3000 followers, and btw is still growing.
Six years, on Curse, open to the world, not a secret to anyone, and now deemed an "Exploit"?

12/03/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Xaeva


OK, from "MY" perspective going in to a 10, 15, and 40 man PVP instance, commonly known as Battlegrounds, with a group friends, guildies and live people is a lot more fun than queing solo for a random and facing either a zerg, a graveyard camp or a bunch of scripted bots attacking anything that happens near them.

I know from 8 years of experience that grouping with friends, be it large or small, pvp or pve, is a whole lot more fun than soloing.


False dichotomy. Who ever said that playing with friends wasn't more fun than playing solo? There are lots of options for group pvp: unrated battlegrounds are for smaller groups, and rateds and wargames are for larger ones. It's not perfect, but it's what we have. If you expect to always have exactly what you want, no matter what, even at the expense of someone else, then you're in for a lifetime of disappointment.


No ma'am, I do not expect to always get my way. That would just foolish. Like I stated before, as far as the "piece" of the addon that was broken, I don't care. All it did was take away a simple way of gameplay. What I am after are some straight and heaven forbid, logical answers.

And bear in mind, if and when they figure out a way to get the unrated battleground queue to handle matchmaking effectively for groups of larger than five, which is what we've been told is the thing stopping them from just removing the restriction, they will not be the easy, casual games you're used to. They'll have a lot more in common with rated battlegrounds


I am so totally looking forward to that, but like everything else that Blizzard has said, I will not expect or believe it till it truely happens.
90 Human Priest
17090
Oh, now it's an "exploit".
So it does not matter that the PAV addon "exploit" has been on Curse for over 6 years. and has been downloaded over 1,865,000 times.
And the newest addon "exploit", oQueue had just over 3000 followers, and btw is still growing.
Six years, on Curse, open to the world, not a secret to anyone, and now deemed an "Exploit"?
Yes. Exploit. The patch was to 'fix an exploit.'

No ma'am, I do not expect to always get my way. That would just foolish. Like I stated before, as far as the "piece" of the addon that was broken, I don't care. All it did was take away a simple way of gameplay. What I am after are some straight and heaven forbid, logical answers.
Well, you've gotten them. There've been several posts from blues on why they feel the change was needed and how they expect unrated battlegrounds to work.
And bear in mind, if and when they figure out a way to get the unrated battleground queue to handle matchmaking effectively for groups of larger than five, which is what we've been told is the thing stopping them from just removing the restriction, they will not be the easy, casual games you're used to. They'll have a lot more in common with rated battlegrounds


I am so totally looking forward to that, but like everything else that Blizzard has said, I will not expect or believe it till it truely happens.
Yep, who knows how long it'll take, but I think their reasoning for restricting premade size until they're able to match up groups on a larger scale is sound.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
0
and yes Dysheki, I have done a lot of World PVP.
I had my For The Horde before ahievments came out.
I started at Crossroads before Bg's came out and just kept going.
Every patch, every expansion Blizzard would promise the world to the PVP'ers.
Within 2 months of the time they gave us something, they took it away.
I have hung in there year after year, still hoping that Blizzard would remember, that there really is a PVP community, and we pay our dues same as the PVE community does.
I guess I am just tired of being told to go to the back of the bus.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
0
Yes. Exploit. The patch was to 'fix an exploit.'


In patch 5.1, we resolved some issues regarding how Addons interact with the Battleground queue system. It is no longer possible to automate queuing for standard or random Battlegrounds in groups larger than 5. We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.

We understand that players want to enjoy coordinated team play, and we invite those players to queue into Rated Battlegrounds or play Wargames to have that experience. Players can continue to use Addons to queue for Rated Battlegrounds as well.


Where does it say "Exploit"
90 Human Priest
17090
12/03/2012 07:29 PMPosted by Xaeva
Yes. Exploit. The patch was to 'fix an exploit.'


In patch 5.1, we resolved some issues regarding how Addons interact with the Battleground queue system. It is no longer possible to automate queuing for standard or random Battlegrounds in groups larger than 5. We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.

We understand that players want to enjoy coordinated team play, and we invite those players to queue into Rated Battlegrounds or play Wargames to have that experience. Players can continue to use Addons to queue for Rated Battlegrounds as well.


Where does it say "Exploit"
Ghostcrawler called it one. Someone asked about oQueue, he said it 'may have been an unintended consequence' of a change they made to prevent an exploit. It turned out that queue circumvention was the exploit. When you look at oQueue's site and its threads here on the forums, it's all about 'social mesh networking' and finding freinds; it tends to gloss over the pub stomping. So it's understandable to miss that an addon that tries to spin itself as being all about finding friends to play with would also be one of the addons that needed breaking.

Which is more likely; that he knew what oQueue was, but didn't know that it was broken intentionally, which would have to mean that he had no idea what features had been protected, even though spoke about it as if he knew exactly what had been changed? Or that he didn't know precisely what oQueue was or what it did, and didn't realize that it was one of the addons that were using the 'exploit' he mentioned?
90 Blood Elf Priest
15765
I think Cylthia is referring to GC's tweet that answered a question about Oqueue being broken, which at the time he posted it, was conjectural. He wasn't sure of the exact reasons at that time, which is why he said "I *think*".

It might be best to stick to Daxxarri's post for official information on this, instead of pulling from things that are out of context.

But who does that, right?! :D
90 Human Priest
17090
I think Cylthia is referring to GC's tweet that answered a question about Oqueue being broken, which at the time he posted it, was conjectural. He wasn't sure of the exact reasons at that time, which is why he said "I *think*".

It might be best to stick to Daxxarri's post for official information on this, instead of pulling from things that are out of context.

But who does that, right?! :D
What's out of context? He would not have used the word 'exploit' if there wasn't one. Not all the game's changes are to prevent exploits.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
0
Yep, who knows how long it'll take, but I think their reasoning for restricting premade size until they're able to match up groups on a larger scale is sound.


Dosn't seem logical that instead of Restricting premade size they could simple tell the players that Battle grounds were made for and may contain premades and instruct them how to get their own premades going?

We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.


So again they choose another group over the PVP comunity.

No, the questions are still there.
Why now, after 6 years they decided the experience was bad?
Why are we being punished for trying to bring coordinated pvp to Battlegrounds, but no restrictions are being placed on World PVP?

Several questions, no answers and no logic.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15765
The problem is that you're taking something out of context. Whether multiple group queuing is or isn't an exploit is a gray area and has been for years. Oqueue and PAV just made it very easy to do.

The tweet was a time-sensitive thing. It answered that specific question at that time, it didn't set anything down in stone because even in GC's answer, he was unsure WHY the addon was broken. Once Daxxarri's post (which I consider far more official than a shot-in-the-dark on Twitter) was up, the tweet became obsolete. In this case, you're making a leap of logic based off of the guess of one person answering a twitter question.
90 Human Priest
17090
The problem is that you're taking something out of context. Whether multiple group queuing is or isn't an exploit is a gray area and has been for years. Oqueue and PAV just made it very easy to do.

The tweet was a time-sensitive thing. It answered that specific question at that time, it didn't set anything down in stone because even in GC's answer, he was unsure WHY the addon was broken. Once Daxxarri's post (which I consider far more official than a shot-in-the-dark on Twitter) was up, the tweet became obsolete. In this case, you're making a leap of logic based off of the guess of one person answering a twitter question.
If you say so. I think it's pretty obvious that making use of a flaw in the queueing system that allows you to 'get around the rules' (again, not Daxxarri but the far-less-diplomatic Ghostcrawler) is what you'd call an 'exploit.'
12/03/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Xaeva
Yep, who knows how long it'll take, but I think their reasoning for restricting premade size until they're able to match up groups on a larger scale is sound.


Dosn't seem logical that instead of Restricting premade size they could simple tell the players that Battle grounds were made for and may contain premades and instruct them how to get their own premades going?
That's a selfish attitude. They've stated that they want to be able to match premades against each other fairly. They do not want premades to play against less-coordinated groups. They do not want to make unrated battlegrounds even less friendly to solo queuers and smaller groups by putting a 'you might get pubstomped by a full premade' warning label on them.

We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.


So again they choose another group over the PVP comunity.

No, the questions are still there.
Why now, after 6 years they decided the experience was bad?
Why are we being punished for trying to bring coordinated pvp to Battlegrounds, but no restrictions are being placed on World PVP?

Several questions, no answers and no logic.
Probably because the use of addons to automate queueing has never been anywhere near as prevalent as it has recently become. They've been heavily advertised and talked about, and people have been actively recruiting more and more players into these groups. The problem got to big, so they did what they could. This is of course a band aid fix at best; it doesn't actually make it impossible to form premades, but that exploit is a lot harder to fix; probably just as hard as making matchmaking of larger groups happen.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15765
12/03/2012 08:02 PMPosted by Cylthia
They've been heavily advertised and talked about, and people have been actively recruiting more and more players into these groups.

And this is a bad thing because...?

More groups = more friends = more good pvp = more fun, even if you lose. Good addons grow in popularity because they are good. Addons like this become the norm instead of the exception, good pvp becomes more accessible to everyone.

I fail to see the bad part of this.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
0
That's a selfish attitude. They've stated that they want to be able to match premades against each other fairly. They do not want premades to play against less-coordinated groups. They do not want to make unrated battlegrounds even less friendly to solo queuers and smaller groups by putting a 'you might get pubstomped by a full premade' warning label on them.


I am being selfish? Why am I being selfish?
I am speaking up because MY gameplay is becoming un-enjoyable by these Less-coordinated solo-queuers and smaller groups that go in to a bg, expecting to zerg to the boss and win like they do in a dungeon.

Why is it when I complain, I am being selfish, but someone else complains it is a sound point?

Right now you call my idea selfish and foolish, but Blizzard has put the "No Coordinated Premades Allowed" sign up on the BG's. So BG are now for PVE'ers?
90 Human Priest
17090
12/03/2012 08:24 PMPosted by Xaeva
That's a selfish attitude. They've stated that they want to be able to match premades against each other fairly. They do not want premades to play against less-coordinated groups. They do not want to make unrated battlegrounds even less friendly to solo queuers and smaller groups by putting a 'you might get pubstomped by a full premade' warning label on them.


I am being selfish? Why am I being selfish?
I am speaking up because MY gameplay is becoming un-enjoyable by these Less-coordinated solo-queuers and smaller groups that go in to a bg, expecting to zerg to the boss and win like they do in a dungeon.

Why is it when I complain, I am being selfish, but someone else complains it is a sound point?

Right now you call my idea selfish and foolish, but Blizzard has put the "No Coordinated Premades Allowed" sign up on the BG's. So BG are now for PVE'ers?
Because currently, it is impossible to make premade queuing fair to both teams. It can't be done. The options are singles or groups of five or less matched against each other, or premades stomping pugs in hopelessly mismatched games.

Not being able to control your entire group in an unrated battleground can make for some frustrating games, but at least your opponents have to deal with the same things. Unless they're circumventing the limits on premade size, that is.

I have no idea how it follows that 'BGs are now for PVErs.'
90 Human Priest
17090
12/03/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Sorina
They've been heavily advertised and talked about, and people have been actively recruiting more and more players into these groups.

And this is a bad thing because...?

More groups = more friends = more good pvp = more fun, even if you lose. Good addons grow in popularity because they are good. Addons like this become the norm instead of the exception, good pvp becomes more accessible to everyone.

I fail to see the bad part of this.
The blue post explained what was bad about it: one of the features of the addon gave its users a significant advantage over people who queued as they were intended to. The group-finding aspects are not the problem and were not broken. People should not be forced to use addons like yours to play with people they don't even know just to have a fighting chance in unrated battlegrounds.
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