"Stealth and Control and Slippery" Response

From a Recent GC Tweet:
Over the last year or so, Rogues have beat a vast array of dead horses into a single, unrecognizable, bloody pulp. One thing that's only recently been discussed, and only in one thread, is the potential design intent of being slippery. Along those lines, I'd like to respond to a recent GC tweet:

Q: if warriors strengh supposed to be mobility, what is rogues strengh?why do they wear leather/have worse moblity?

A: leather vs plate pretty irrelevant these days. Rogues supposed to be about stealth and control and being slippery.


The question is, what does it mean to be slippery? High dodge? High mobility? Maybe, but I think there's something more too it. I present to you the following abilities:

(1) Berserker Rage, a fear/sap/incapacitate break AND 6 second immunity on a 30s CD.

(2) Fade, a stun break (and pseudo-stealth) on a 30s CD.

(3) Blink, a stun and bonds break on an amazingly short 15s CD.

(4) Druid shapeshifting, a root/snare break on no CD.

Now, I'm not going to go and claim that Rogues aren't at all slippery. Lets admit it, stealth is a pretty cool and pretty strong ability, especially with the Vanish buff. Really, it's pretty cool ... but can a 3m re-stealth really be considered as slippery as a 30s loss-of-control-of-character break AND immunity? With a 30s, or even 15s stun break? With a no CD root/snare break?

No. Even 1.5m Cloak, 2m Vanish, AND 5m Prep together offered yes a chance at re-stealth, and a minimal number of root/snare breaks. Only the Cloak could remove spamable stealth debuffs like Hunter's Mark, Faerie Fire, and yes, even Vendetta. Given that those no longer exist together, and the greater amount of CC present in MoP, it's no wonder Rogues aren't exactly slippery.

If Blizzard truly intends for Rogues to be slippery, they're going to have to re-consider the MoP environment and current standard's of "slipperiness."
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
I hear ya seeing as how they added so many things to knock rogues out of stealth they could stand to lower Vanishe's cd a bit... i mean if a mage can stun ever 3 seconds why can a rogue vanish every 30 seconds.. or atleast every minute.

I thought rogues stregnth would be being able to leave and enter battle as plzed but they can barely do that now.

or since they are on the "oh these skills charge up to 2-3 times" why dont they have a vanish that charges once per minute n stacks up to 2?
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/20/2012 3:12 AM PST
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90 Worgen Rogue
18095
Only reason I can really think of why there haven't been any major Rogue changes;

Anything buffed now will be too strong later down the line.
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90 Human Warlock
17825
The last thing rogues need is more vanishes. If they need more 'slipperyness' fine, but dont give them endless combat reset buttons. using CLoS + Vanish together is far too powerful a 'you cant kill me - no matter what, i escape' combo already.

I think it's probably best to just recognize that Rogues should not be a super strong class in arenas... it's just impossible to balance a real stealth class to be equally strong in a mass pvp enivonment and in an enclosed box. If they give rogues the tools they need to be fully competative in arenas, they are ridiculously OP everywhere else.

Arenas dont have strategic points to hold and set up ambushes in.
Arenas dont have weakened straglers to pray upon
Arenas dont have targets of high value to stealth to and assassinate
Running off and reseting combat in Arena when your team is dead gains you nothing

Arena is just totally opposed to the rogue stealth toolkit, but if you give them the raw power they need to be equal in arena and then just add the stealth toolkit on top of that in every other pvp context, you get an OP class.

The best compromise I could think of would be to remove vanish and severly water down stealth from combat and balance combat to be the rogue arena spec.
Edited by Thanatosia on 11/20/2012 4:00 AM PST
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15 Human Priest
10570
You mean Arenas where Rogue representation is down to 2%?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
13025
(2) Fade, a stun break (and pseudo-stealth) on a 30s CD.


First, to clear this up. The ability is Spectral Guise, which is on the fourth tier of priest talent trees. While it is usable while stunned, it only eats 3 attacks, and doesn't actually break stuns, making it less useful for this than you would think. Fade is a seperate ability that can also be talented for an additional effect, but after testing it for both, I can say that Fade is not usable while stunned at all.

All in all, Spectral Guise is still a really cool ability.

The last thing rogues need is more vanishes. If they need more 'slipperyness' fine, but dont give them endless combat reset buttons. using CLoS + Vanish together is far too powerful a 'you cant kill me - no matter what, i escape' combo already.


Have you forgotten that priests and druids can use stealth mid combat without actually dropping combat? Vanish isn't the only way for rogues to potentially utilize stealth mid combat. Also, druids have an 8 second cleanse, 30 second vanish/blink, and a way to self heal better than any rogue could dream of. How would rogues somehow be better at this?

I think it's probably best to just recognize that Rogues should not be a super strong class in arenas... it's just impossible to balance a real stealth class to be equally strong in a mass pvp enivonment and in an enclosed box. If they give rogues the tools they need to be fully competative in arenas, they are ridiculously OP everywhere else.


You are far, far overestimating stealth. Yes, it gives us the first strike, but did you know that Ambush doesn't hit that hard outside of find weakness? That cheap shot DRs with our much better stun? That using any of our openers again requires a major 3 minute combat reset cooldown? At least you did know that staying in stealth would get our teammates killed, and that would be the balancing factor. I'm not saying to let rogues use vanish super super often, but we are The stealth class, and should be using our stealth to help us in combat, though that doesn't mean letting us use our openers all the time.

11/20/2012 03:58 AMPosted by Thanatosia
Arenas dont have strategic points to hold and set up ambushes in


Any class can set up an ambush. Try hiding in the bushes in the mines or inside the blacksmith hut. It takes more effort for other classes, sure, but it's by no means impossible.

11/20/2012 03:58 AMPosted by Thanatosia
Arenas dont have weakened straglers to pray upon


Again, any class can do this. See that half dead guy on the road? Charge/Stun/Dead. Or Fear/DoT/Dead. Or Nova/Deep Freeze/Dead. I don't get what you think rogues have that makes them all that much better at this.

11/20/2012 03:58 AMPosted by Thanatosia
Arenas dont have targets of high value to stealth to and assassinate


A valid point, and probably one of the things that makes RBGs more interesting. It's an invaluable strategic asset that gives you more to consider than "well I saw these guys running here, everyone go there." Also, you're forgetting to mention that druids, hunters, and shamans with symbiosis also all have stealth, making them potentially as effective as a rogue in this regard.

11/20/2012 03:58 AMPosted by Thanatosia
The best compromise I could think of would be to remove vanish and severly water down stealth from combat and balance combat to be the rogue arena spec.


This would literally finish off the rogue class. Shadow priests get a 6 second stealth on a 30 second cooldown, but somehow its' overpowered for rogues? Even if we wouldn't get to use our openers?

Stealth by itself isn't a game winner.

Also, To add to the initial argument. Rogues have primarily been a control/CC class, and their weakness historically was CC. It still is, and rogues have little to no defense against CC of any kind. Only now, almost everyone has about as much CC, or close to about as much CC as a rogue, while keeping their healing/damage/utility. Rogues have fallen behind considerably.
Edited by Nanaya on 11/20/2012 9:23 AM PST
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
Rogues have been over-nerfed.

They're pretty useless currently.

I feel bad because I have a lvl 85 Rogue, that I used to love during Cataclysm.

I want to level it to 90, but I've heard terrible stories about Rogues in Pandaria.
Also, it's ridiculously easy for me (Mage) to a kill a Rogue, even if my CDs aren't up.

Rogues NEED more stealth abilities and more mobility.
Preparation and Shadowstep in the same talent tier has been the most retarded decision Blizzard ever made.
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90 Gnome Warlock
7990
Rogues....... ah I hate you so from getting stun locked all those years.

But as a class and a playstyle you should be able to compete.

Arenas dont have strategic points to hold and set up ambushes in.
Arenas dont have weakened straglers to pray upon
Arenas dont have targets of high value to stealth to and assassinate
Running off and reseting combat in Arena when your team is dead gains you nothing


These are very good points and Thanatosia actually gets it.

I dont know why you are throwing their argument out. If you make rogues strong outside of stealth, when they can then control you with stuns and surprise then the fight isnt even fair. Loss of control of your character is never fun.

Poisons for slowing casting speed and for slowing the character. Not fun. Its not compelling game play. Just hitting someone while you have the surprise factor doesnt take skill.

So how do you make the rogue class viable? Use sublty as the stealth spec. Allow them to be really slippery and give them more cc but lower the damage. Maybe give them a stacking buff on time on target so they can still pve, not sure how to control the balance between pve and pvp on that.

Allow Combat, and Assassination then to be heartier but less slippery. So you can pick a different playstyle. Sub is very slippery, with more control but less damage. While Combat and Assassination utilize being out in the open but able to pump out more damage.
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64 Worgen Hunter
8455
Lol GC's a clown. To make a thread about anything he says is an insult to your own intelligence.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6815
The forums feel real again rogues asking blizzard to fix the class they broke, blizzard denying they broke anything. I wouldn't doubt blizz to fix rogues a few months before the expansion ends and then claim they did a great job the whole expansion. Personally not buying more time when I run out other rogues should consider the same.
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The last thing rogues need is more vanishes. If they need more 'slipperyness' fine, but dont give them endless combat reset buttons. using CLoS + Vanish together is far too powerful a 'you cant kill me - no matter what, i escape' combo already.


There are differences of opinion here (including my own), but lets go with yours and say that stealth is too strong for arenas. How can you make Rogues' "slipperiness" competitive with other classes outside of Vanish?

11/20/2012 09:40 AMPosted by Baelis
So how do you make the rogue class viable? Use sublty as the stealth spec. Allow them to be really slippery and give them more cc but lower the damage. Maybe give them a stacking buff on time on target so they can still pve, not sure how to control the balance between pve and pvp on that.


This is the old model, it leads to one PvP spec and two PvE specs. Blizzard's most recent stated intent was to differentiate specs by how they do damage, rather than by how much control or tools (implied, stealth) they have.

Could different types of "slippery" be made baseline or be put into the talent tree or glyphs to bring Rogues up to par?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Well, one thing they could do to make us more slippery without touching stealth is:
Make Shadowstep a 12s CD - If used on an ally it breaks roots/snares.

Or.. Baseline Sprint can remove roots and snares. Maybe tie it with Burst of Speed?
Add a "In addition, your Sprint now also removes movement impairing effects and using Burst of Speed while Sprint is active refunds 50% of the energy cost."

Oh! For Prep:
"In addition, while your Sprint, Vanish, Evasion, Cloak of Shadows is active, you are immune to all movement impairing effects.".
Edited by Knocrogue on 11/20/2012 1:30 PM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
6215
The last thing rogues need is more vanishes. If they need more 'slipperyness' fine, but dont give them endless combat reset buttons. using CLoS + Vanish together is far too powerful a 'you cant kill me - no matter what, i escape' combo already.

I think it's probably best to just recognize that Rogues should not be a super strong class in arenas... it's just impossible to balance a real stealth class to be equally strong in a mass pvp enivonment and in an enclosed box. If they give rogues the tools they need to be fully competative in arenas, they are ridiculously OP everywhere else.

Arenas dont have strategic points to hold and set up ambushes in.
Arenas dont have weakened straglers to pray upon
Arenas dont have targets of high value to stealth to and assassinate
Running off and reseting combat in Arena when your team is dead gains you nothing

Arena is just totally opposed to the rogue stealth toolkit, but if you give them the raw power they need to be equal in arena and then just add the stealth toolkit on top of that in every other pvp context, you get an OP class.

The best compromise I could think of would be to remove vanish and severly water down stealth from combat and balance combat to be the rogue arena spec.


Stick to pve buddy, your lack of knowledge of pvp disturbs me.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12385
I tend to disagree with a shorter cooldown/multiple vanishes being uncalled for/ too much. Like most things, if done correctly, it would be balanced.

I envision a sub spec where:

-Executioner is scrapped as a mastery.
-Master of Subtlety is the new Sub mastery.
-Vanish has a ~30-40 second cooldown.
-Find weakness is toned down or removed.

I envision a rogue class where:
-Moves like Riposte and Ghostly Strike are staples.
-Lining up combo moves and finishers yields dynamic effects.
-Sprint is an adequate mobility tool on its own.
-the level 60 'mobility' tool becomes such.
-Prep and QOL issues are dealt with once and for all.

I was going to expand on this, but it'll probably need its own thread. I'll just highlight a few points.

Riposte, Ghostly Strike, and Short CD vanish= active mitigation. RNG is generally detrimental to things that HAVE to work, so raw dodge doesn't cut it.

Sprint/level 60 tier = there is simply no excuse for the mobility differences. I'm not saying that other melee have the perfect tools, but Sprint is easily the least reliable gapclosing ability baseline, and of the mobility tiers, the Rogue tier 60 is arguably the worst designed.

If we're supposed to be slippery, we should probably have more frequently available(if not more effective) tools; as it stands, mages have a better history of being slippery given their 15 second stun/root clearing blink, dot scrub/ fast removal between ice block/mage armor, target dropping with mirror image/invisibility.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11105
Rogues are probably the most "slippery" class.

I think by slippery they mean able to remove ourselves from being the target and maybe even have the enemy lose track of us for at least a few moments.

I think we are only a little bit more slippery than others though. Maybe they need to add some more slipperiness to our class.

Being slippery is hardly a benefit seeing as it takes us out of the fight and really doesn't bear very much benefit in team play where switching and stomping on others is just as bad as us staying the target.

I'm fine with being slippery if slippery is actually a good thing. We should be way more slippery than others though.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
13025
Rogues are probably the most "slippery" class.

I think by slippery they mean able to remove ourselves from being the target and maybe even have the enemy lose track of us for at least a few moments.


Sure. We can do this every 3 minutes.

Druids and priests can do this every 30 seconds. We are not the most slippery class. To be fair though, priests don't gain all that much out of theirs.
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90 Goblin Rogue
7975
GC, what the !@#$ is wrong with you?
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
Only reason I can really think of why there haven't been any major Rogue changes;

Anything buffed now will be too strong later down the line.


This guy gets it.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
Rogues are probably the most "slippery" class.

I think by slippery they mean able to remove ourselves from being the target and maybe even have the enemy lose track of us for at least a few moments.


Sure. We can do this every 3 minutes.

Druids and priests can do this every 30 seconds. We are not the most slippery class. To be fair though, priests don't gain all that much out of theirs.


Psssst druids don't even take displacer beast so no they cannot.
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100 Goblin Rogue
15350
Only reason I can really think of why there haven't been any major Rogue changes;

Anything buffed now will be too strong later down the line.


This guy gets it.


He would have gotten it, except everything we're complaining about now we complained about when beta started, when all classes were in flux.

So no, he didn't get it unless "it" is the prize for being wrong
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