Replacing Ice Barrier

90 Human Mage
19100
I am feeling the nerf. I didn't think 25% would hurt as much as it does, but I'm feeling it in both PvE and PvP. In PvE, it still seems like the best choice because there's no way for you to spread out damage across 25 seconds, the cooldown of Temporal Shield. Also, Ice Barrier is still the only option that helps with casting knockback. But, for PvP, what option works best?

Temporal Shield has the cool feature of basically nullifying any and all damage for 4 seconds, similar to Mistweaver's when stunlocked. Except, we don't have to be stunlocked. And our spell has a 25 second cooldown versus their passive which has a 10 second cooldown. I have tried using Temporal Shield before in Arena matches where we'd be facing Rogues and, every time they opened up on me, they were able to shave off 20% of my health before the Temporal Shield buff kicked in after spamming the button. Then, I'd move away after Garrote ran out, Nova the Rogue, and be ready to react to their cloak. Waiting for 4 seconds of their burst to heal back over 6 seconds feels like forever, but it's the only heal we've got so I'll try not to complain...

What are the restrictions of this? The 6 second heal doesn't seem fast enough to not get you killed (since you don't have Ice Barrier to prevent further damage) and the 25 second CD seems just too long to prevent burst twice (since you don't have Blazing Speed to help build distance).

And if you use Incanter's Ward at the same time as Temporal, does that essentially waste part of your Temporal?

Also, can you die during your 4 seconds of Temporal Shield? Is our only option to deal with Warrior + DK burst to just use Ice Block and save the shield for... Well, I don't know what do. I've never beat a Warrior + DK comp before.

Blazing Speed suffers the same 25 second cooldown of Temporal Shield, but seems like it'd work better since you can avoid damage instead of eating it and hoping you heal up faster than they can react. Plus, it helps build distance which is key when dealing with melee players. I have no tried it more than just quick testing, though. The idea of not having any damage mitigation is a bit scary with the amount of CC that melee characters have, now. Double death grip, double charge... But I digress.

What are the restrictions of this? 25 seconds seems like a long time to wait for movement (Blink is a 15 second cooldown, so you'll be able to Blink almost twice as often) and it seems absolutely useless against ranged classes since the only way for them to be unable to attack you is for you to be unable to attack them. It doesn't prevent damage at all, meaning that no matter how fast I'm running, a Chaos Bolt can catch me. With this talent, is our only damage mitigation our Ice Block (or Incanter's Ward, which aborbs maybe one white attack)?

And how far away can you get in the 1.5 seconds that Blazing Speed lasts? Can you be stunned during that time? Slowed? When it says it "suppresses movement slowing effects", does that mean that the effects persist, they just don't apply for 1.5 seconds? And does it suppress movement preventing effects (stuns) or only slowing?

And it says it can be casted while casting something. If you are casting any spell that you cannot move while casting, will this waste the Blazing Speed if you don't interrupt your cast to move?
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It's much more than 25%. It feels more like 45%.

Leveling a mage now is going to suck hard. It's the lowbie mages that are going to be hurt the most by this.
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90 Undead Mage
5285
Ice barrier remains the most convenient and natural to use. I remain utterly unconvinced by 1.5 seconds of speed. I never played fire back in the day, but I recall the original blazing speed didn't have a cooldown or require activation. It was a 10% proc on recieving melee damage i believe. Or was it slows only?
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90 Human Mage
8645
11/29/2012 09:21 AMPosted by Crystalah
Ice barrier remains the most convenient and natural to use. I remain utterly unconvinced by 1.5 seconds of speed. I never played fire back in the day, but I recall the original blazing speed didn't have a cooldown or require activation. It was a 10% proc on recieving melee damage i believe. Or was it slows only?


You're right. If you took damage, it had a small chance of proc'ing. It may have had an internal CD, though... that was a long time ago.
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100 Worgen Mage
12940
It's much more than 25%. It feels more like 45%.

Leveling a mage now is going to suck hard. It's the lowbie mages that are going to be hurt the most by this.


I don't think so.

I vaguely recall my ice barrier blocking something like 118k pre-patch in full raid buffs. Now post-patch (with slight gear upgrades) it still absorbs 92k. This is still good enough to be very useful in PVE.

For PVP... I hear temporal shield tends to get dispelled before it does anything, and blazing speed is useless as it doesn't actually get you far enough from melee to keep you up. Players who are actively pvping will be able to provide more input on this though.
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90 Worgen Mage
12345
I just wish they'd make blazing speed be able to be used without taking damage, the fact that you MUST take damage before being able to use it, makes it much less desireable then if you could just pop it anytime. I know if you could pop it anytime i'd definatly give it a go. Would be great on heroic stone guard if jade isn't up.
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
I don't think so.

I vaguely recall my ice barrier blocking something like 118k pre-patch in full raid buffs. Now post-patch (with slight gear upgrades) it still absorbs 92k. This is still good enough to be very useful in PVE.


u already know to Drama llamas 20k = 40k
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4445
..........so many bads
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90 Human Mage
19100
The problem with Blazing Speed proccing on damage is that, in order to use it, we give up our only damage mitigation aside from Ice Block and Incanter's Ward. Incanter's WArd is capable of eating maybe one attack meaning we'd have to have it up and then hit Blazing Speed as soon as we got hit and hope that we didn't get stunned. And the chance of a melee reaching a Mage and not stunning them is very, very slim.

Without Ice Barrier, Mages are very squishy because we have nothing else. We can't heal aside from glyphed Evocation, a ~5 second cast for a 60% heal on a 2 minute cooldown, and Cold Snap, a 30% heal on a 3 minute cooldown. We have no damage mitigation on our entire class aside from Ice Barrier / Temporal Shield (talented on the same tier), Incanter's Ward (which is intentionally weak, by design), and Ice Block on a 5 minute cooldown.

Melee have a plethora of abilities to keep them on Mages. Mages can't survive damage without mitigation, and they can't avoid damage when melee classes can keep up so easily. And as for ranged classes, they nerfed our Mage Armor. And Hunter's are nearly un-counterable by Mages. They are the Rock to our Scissors.
Edited by Koviko on 11/29/2012 1:15 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
19100
11/29/2012 01:03 PMPosted by Æsthetîcs
..........so many bads

You could always be constructive and help rather than troll. Do you think that Blizz nerfed Ice Barrier to encourage us to use different talents or just for the hell of nerfing it?
Edited by Koviko on 11/29/2012 1:50 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
19100
11/29/2012 12:14 PMPosted by Stinkybum
Thats the way its always been.
But at the same time, we had armors to mitigate some damage. Now, we have to choose between mitigation or Blazing Speed, making Blazing Speed very unattractive.
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90 Night Elf Druid
4620
The nerf to IB was WAYYYY excessive. Ive seen some posters stating that 25k nerf (more like 35) is only one melee hit. True but if that's the logic, why nerf it in the first place?
25k damage is 500000 mitigation over an average boss fight (say 10mins). Still insignificant?
PVP wise, it may also be a few ticks of a dot which can make all the difference.

Yeah it was a nerf, a bloody big one. Combined with the 20% nerf to DF, (hurting their pve and pvp) mages are definitely more glass and less cannon now.

EDIT: Oh and as for Blazing speed, I would take an improved blink any day.
Edited by Centrix on 11/29/2012 1:55 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
9520
Before MoP, Arcane and Fire could do well without ice Barrier because they had Mana Shield to serve as a damage prevention, or as that reaction button when damage is inevitable. It was costly to use and, in Cata, hampered Arcane hard due to mastery, but was a decent replacement for Ice Barrier, in the lack of another absorption.

Removing it made Ice Barrier feel mandatory, since we are still limited in our ability to heal damage received. Incanter's Ward doesn't have the property of lasting longer than its cooldown, making it weak as a preventive tool. If a weak, but long-lasting, absorption were still available for all specs, Blazing and Temporal would probably see more use.

Blazing was probably changed after hearing the feedback of players wishing it weren't so tied with luck, as it was a 10% proc before. We didn't ask for the removal of the alternative absorption for Ice Barrier, though. They probably removed Mana Shield because it was a talent in the first conception of the Tier 2, later changed to Temporal. It may be worth a revision, if just to make Ice Barrier less mandatory (maybe baseline and replaced by Ice Barrier).
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90 Human Rogue
6910
If you are feeling that it shields you for less then it is good. That's the whole point. It's a nerf.
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90 Troll Shaman
5135
11/29/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Lolità
If you are feeling that it shields you for less then it is good. That's the whole point. It's a nerf.

^^^

Deal with it /thread
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
11/29/2012 02:27 PMPosted by Aowyn
Before MoP, Arcane and Fire could do well without ice Barrier because they had Mana Shield


Trust me I'm pretty sure That's not why Arcane and Fire could do good... Mage armor was highly beneficial to Arcane tho cause of the inherent knock back. Fire and Arcane had a way better way to Stun, Fire still has the Stun but Arcane Doesn't Arcane also used to cast much much much quicker + Had snare of Arcane blast.

Fire never needed a Shield in cata it was a pure Glass cannon that relied on move speed and Dragon's breath and doing insane Damage.. All mages had a speed boost on blink, Arcane had a slow and stun on Poly, and could Go invisible. Then MOP came out and all the movement was removed... all mages where given fail armor and Deep Freeze.

Trying to Say Manashield did anything useful besides adding some resistance is pathetic.. they survived cause they could kite. Also Manashield was never a detriment to Arcane.... Incanters ward for the Sake of argument IS Manashield. When an Arcane Mage would get hit with it on they knock back and get a huge Damage increase.

If you think Manashield was good enough to save u.. pick IW and use it.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/29/2012 4:40 PM PST
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90 Gnome Mage
8190
While I feel a difference in pve, I can't say the updated Ice Barrier is breaking or making anything significant in pvp. Spellsteal was the big hammer in 5.1 that I notice time and again, but I like that change. One enjoyable side of playing a mage was knowing how to manage your mana, just as once upon a time warriors had to know how to manage their rage. Now I feel as though the two classes kinda got an easy pass to never running dry. While I appreciate the fact that I no longer need concern myself with a blue bar in a really long arena match or in BGs, I think that was part of the fun to manage it efficiently.

Going back to the OP's question though, I don't find Temporal Shields a complete waste. Yes, it can be dispelled, but there again, most times when you need to use it no one is really around purging. Plus it really does add a nice cushion for YOUR healers in those pinch moments. I think what's bugging a lot of folks is that they were soo dependent on tanking damage as frost and now that it's threatened they are panicked a little. I'm here to say stop panicking! I wont comment on the side of frost because I personally cannot stand the spec, but as fire I have SOO many ways to mitigate damage or stall for help/etc. You get alter time placed on a shorter CD(with 4piece set) for a reason, use it! It's not just effective at adding a bit more damage; it can be used defensively as well if you can anticipate the enemies movements. Combustion has a 2sec stun on it; sure you can use it for the damage side of it, but maybe it's better used at times for an interrupt. Don't worry, it will be up in 45sec, and it still applies some damage. Dragon's Breath is almost always up to be used. Frost nova and DeepFreeze are handy tools to gain distance as well. (this brings up another Point, no one said you HAVE to use ring of frost. I'm actually enjoying ice ward a lot as it's a second nova for myself, or I can apply it to others!). Get Creative People!

Blazing Speeds is an enjoyable talent, but I think it took a much unwanted turn for the worse in MoP. The 1.5sec speed boost is hardly enough to get away from anything with half a brain. In fact, players with half a brain just manage to stun you or trip you up in some fashion for a brief second so all you really get from hitting that spell is .5sec of run time. And let's be honest, that's a blink's distance..nothing note worthy. I enjoyed the randomness of the Chance proc in its previous state. I think this talent needs either a lowered CD to say 20sec and/or a 2sec duration. This talent also desperately needs an immunity to all slowing effects for at least the first second of activation. It's not hard for a warrior/DK to just reapply hamstring/etc.
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LOL, so much BALANCE MONGERING, so little time.

Remmber the blues saying they did this whole stupid FIG-TREE because everyone was not making any significant differences in choices?

LOL...

Well, the OP has it right, "we feel the pinch". And it does feel more like 45% to me too.

The real reason why no one want Temp-Shield (LAUGH) or Blazing Speed-O is because they are too situational to use, don't scale with anything like level, spell power, etc, and then, don't really make a difference.

While I do like being able to learn/unlearn individual FIG-TREE leaves, that could have been done on the original talent trees we had. Bottom line, this whole FIG-TREE was dumb, and it REAKS of BALANCE MONGERING that blz NERFED Ice Barrier to make the other two choices more appealing.

Put another way, they NERFED something good, to make other STUPID choices more appealing.
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